Witcher 3 Dev: Don't Buy From Green Man Gaming

FoolKiller

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NickBrahz said:
I like how everybody jumps to pitchforks and fire as soon as a large respected digital site does not want to list it's business partners instead of waiting for something actually criminal or disreputable.
Actually, this seems like the 3rd party retailer is doing something criminal or disreputable. Most likely, they sold keys to GMG that were not to be sold to resellers. GOG is fully in their rights to point out that the keys are not legitimate as they have been acquired through less than legitimate means.
 

Abomination

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When the developers and publishers of a game say that the keys to their game have been acquired in an unauthorized manner I'm going to have to side with the developers and publishers first because, you know, it's THEIR property and THEY would know the terms and conditions of sale of their property.

While I despise regional pricing I also can't abide a registered company enabling the breach of contract in order to conduct its business. It's unethical.
 

black_knight1337

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Scars Unseen said:
They didn't say "illegal." They said "unauthorized."
They also said that the keys haven't originated from a legal source.

Charcharo said:
Since the source of the keys is not stated, id say CD Project Red are doing the right thing.

Better to cause a shitstorm now, protect the consumer and sort this out BEFORE the game is released, then be a jackass like Ubisoft.
It'd be one thing if they just urged customers to be cautious when purchasing from GMG because they don't know where they got their keys. But to go on and say the keys aren't valid, that they haven't originated from a legal scource and that they won't be receiving any of the money from those sales is a bit much.

Also, while they didn't specifically say where they got the keys, they did say that they were from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CDPR". It just seems like CDP really jumped the gun on this one, throwing out claims without even really knowing what the situation was.
 

JakobBloch

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OK I have seen a few statements here that really miss the pall.

let's go through them:

1) CDPR can deactivate the GMG codes.

For this to happen they have to know where they got the keys from. They don't. It is also highly unlikely that they will if GMG are telling the truth, when they say they got them through a legitimate retailer. The information will then be part of the deal struck between GMG and the 3rd party reseller. A deal they are under no obligation to divulge (unless under some provision of an earlier deal with CDPR).

In short: No they can't.

2) GMG can only have gotten their keys by getting them from a regions pricing them lower than in the western world or through other more nefarious means.

GMG lists the publisher as Namco Bandai. Steam lists the publisher as CD Project Red. This means that in negotiating with distributors CDPR has either been negotiating as publisher (higher cut of the final price) or developer (lower cut of final price)depending on the one they are selling to. These keys will likely be from the second group here as the first group likely only include steam as a platform (GOG is CDPRs own platform or at least their affiliation is very tight). As we know from the recent situation with paid mods the split for steam goes thus: 25% to developer, 30% to steam and 45% to publisher. This will likely not be different for The Witcher 3 which means that CDPR gets 70% of the sales price through Steam. They really like this I imagine. Now with other distribution platforms I wager they will not get as good a deal. Through Namco the deal will likely only net them about 30% of the final price, maybe even as much as 35% (as Namco Bandai did not actually bankroll the game). Now here is the important bit: Namco Bandai is now sitting with 65% of the final price to distribute between themselves and their retailers. Depending on how deep the distribution chain goes their cut can be anywhere from 25% to 40% with the lions share probably lying in the 30-35%. If the guys were skilled enough they might have gotten that sweet sweet 25% (though the 30% is more likely) Leaving them with between 30-40% of the final price of the game. Now they could sell the game at full price and sell a fairly low number of the keys they have... or they can give their customers a deep cut in price. This will limit their own profit BUT will potentially draw new customers to the site. Seeing as people in the chain only actually get paid if the final product is actually sold (this is not potatoes) a middle man might actually be willing to lower his cut of the profit if he knows of a cut like this, seeing as the sale is practically guaranteed.

In short: There are legitimate ways to get a good deal on a product.

3) Unknown Source

This has been covered by others but I will include it here:
Green Man Gaming (the ones giving the low price) knows full well who their sources are. I am guessing here but I expect it is from Namco Bandai directly (though there are some pitfalls with this idea).
CD Project Red (the developer) don't know the source of the keys. This is natural. They likely don't know where the boxes in my locale store came from.
In the aftermath of the launch they can probably track some of the keys and find out who the sources were.

Now on to the situation itself. If we assume that everyone are telling the truth (which I think is likely) then the facts are as follows:

CD Project Red don't know where Green Man Gaming got their keys from.

Green Man Gaming got their keys from a legitimate distributor.

Green Man Gaming and CD Project Red were in negotiations to get the game on GMG, but the deal fell through.

Both GOG and Steam are both running their own deals at the moment with steam having cutting the price by about 25% (where I am).

Now we get into speculation territory. GMG is well known for having deep cut sales all the time. Their rebate codes are almost legendary. For a system like that to work they almost certainly have to be taking most if not all the rebates out of their own cut.
Steam is similarly known for offering nice deals even for new releases if the distributor is willing.
CD Project Red has long been known as a trustworthy and consumer oriented company.

So why could GMG and CD Project Red not come together on a deal? The reason I wager is that GMG made their wish to give a good apparent. Now CD Project Red was probably not against this on principle. They are probably in favour of a good deal (though The Witcher 3 is their most ambitious project yet). They just want people to get the good deal from them. If GMG were to get The Witcher 3, I bet you one of the stipulations, they would have to agree to, was that, they could not discount the game for... a month? This would of course not be something that GMG could agree to, especially when they probably knew that both GOG and Steam would be running promotional deals. If GMG were to sell the game with no promotional deal they would not get any sales let alone traffic for their site (CD Project Red likely knew this as well). At this point it is worth noting that where I am the 35% rebate offered by GMG only allows the price to match the deal I would get from Steam. With no discount they would not be able to compete at all. So they found a different solution. By using the fact that CD Project Red would not cut off all other streams of revenue to get people to GOG, GMG would be able to find keys elsewhere. So by likely moving from the digital arena to the physical one they would be able to find keys for their customers. This of course is not a nice thing to do but neither was blocking out third party store-fronts like GMG and I expect GamersGate and Desura. CD Project Red would of course not block off Steam.

In many ways I feel that this is a situation with CD Project Red trying to control the market, failing and then being petulant about it.

So where should you get you copy from? Well if you want the developer to get the biggest cut you go for GOG. If you want some nice fuzzies in you stomach, as you buy, you go for The Humble Store (it is a good cause after all). If you have both the previous games Steam, it will be the cheapest. If you don't have the previous games, GMG is cheapest but you have to live with the somewhat bitter taste in the mouth, coming from the developer not approving. So, make you choice.
 

SilverHunter

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black_knight1337 said:
Scars Unseen said:
They didn't say "illegal." They said "unauthorized."
They also said that the keys haven't originated from a legal source.

Charcharo said:
Since the source of the keys is not stated, id say CD Project Red are doing the right thing.

Better to cause a shitstorm now, protect the consumer and sort this out BEFORE the game is released, then be a jackass like Ubisoft.
It'd be one thing if they just urged customers to be cautious when purchasing from GMG because they don't know where they got their keys. But to go on and say the keys aren't valid, that they haven't originated from a legal scource and that they won't be receiving any of the money from those sales is a bit much.

Also, while they didn't specifically say where they got the keys, they did say that they were from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CDPR". It just seems like CDP really jumped the gun on this one, throwing out claims without even really knowing what the situation was.

Here's a fun little tidbit for you since you want to ignore it...
Just because a retailer was given keys or copies of the game to sell by CDProjeky, DOESNT mean they are allowed to sell said keys or copies to a reseller. GMG is a reseller. You may not of ever seen it, but I have seen games in stores (older games like during the Genesis era moreso than now), slapped with a sticker on the cartridge that said, and I quote "Not for Resale". The agreements these retailers made easily could of had clauses in them that specified no resales, and said retailers are likely from where GMG got the keys from. Breaching an agreement like that is bad for business... Which is why GMG won't disclose its buyers, because they'll be out of business then.

Face it. The reason the games can be sold as cheap as they are right off the bat is because there is a level of circumvention and under table dealing between GMG and these 3rd party retailers.
 

Coruptin

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NickBrahz said:
how is it so weird that a company doesn't want to name there supplier? no company is transparent with where they get there stuff, GMG bought from some 3rd party and if they get named then CDPR will stop doing business with them
chikusho said:
And GMG is under no obligation to disclose those sources to the public. It might, in fact, be very bad for them to do so from a business stand-point. If the copies are functional and legally obtained that's their business and their business alone. If they are non-functional and/or illegally obtained, the burden of proof is on a prosecutor.
A lot of loyalty for a paid retailer!
 

flying_whimsy

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I'm going to side with CDPR on this one: everything I know about business indicates there's something shady going on with GMG in this interaction. Even if it all winds up being above board, GMG is making a deliberate effort to undercut the publisher (my guess is that it's payback because CDPR wasn't willing to sell to them at the rate GMG wanted). That's an easy way to alienate a potential supplier while still garnering goodwill from a community notorious for loving cheap prices.

Then again, I'm a bit biased as I don't trust resellers like GMG in the slightest. They strike me as little more than the gamestop of digital codes: no matter what someone somewhere is getting ripped off. Steam and the humblebundle are the only places I've ever seen pull off massive discounts legitimately.
 

Elijin

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Reading comprehension around here is...troubling.

The only time the GMG rep refers to the source being unknown, is in direct reference to the GoG statement. He's responded to the accusation. That the "Unknown" keys just come from a third party distributor, which is why GoG is confused, since it didnt directly sell keys to GMG.

Im not going to bat for either side here, its just depressing to see a community misread an article, then essentially start slandering a company en masse.
 

Tiamat666

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Witcher 3 is already residing in my GoG account, eagerly awaiting download.

Witcher 2 was so awesome, CDPR has catapulted itself and the Witcher franchise onto the Altar of Holiness. Things on the Altar of Holiness may be bought without question or discount, and may even be preordered, which under normal circumstances is a complete no-go.

And if CDPR says Green Man Gaming's offer is shady, then GmG is the Great Unholy Evil as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I'm in total Fanboy mode.
 

Redryhno

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RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
Redryhno said:
Worgen said:
With most publishers I would be more likely to take green mans side but this is CD Projeckt, they have always tried to do right by gamers even when I have a hard time getting into their games. Besides, CD Projekt also does good physical releases so I'm planning on getting a physical copy.

Ehhh, debatable, they've still got like six major(although largely optional) fights in Witcher 1&2 that are still bugged after years of complaints.
Which ones are bugged in Witcher 2? I've played through it 3 times and done all the optional bosses and I never ran into any bugs. Not any I noticed anyway.

Witcher 1 though... Even the Enhanced Edition has more than enough bugs to go around.
Well, there's the sometimes glitchy guards in the Prologue dungeons, what with them sometimes walking through boxes, the Troll fight in Flotsam sometimes has him skipping running towards you and is just in front of you attacking, the Kayran doesn't always get affected by the traps and...Yrden(? the trap sign) specifically meant for it. There's the harpies that sometimes don't ever respawn even if you're just farming them, and my favorite, the Respec Operator guy in Loc Muiene that drops some stuff you need for the Chapter Armor(though admittedly, you can get them if you have enough patience by farming the battlefield in Chapter 2 I think) that has invisible pillars everywhere as well as being unable to leave due to the game bugging out sometimes once you do beat him.

There's just alot of stuff in the Witcher games that keep me from considering CDPR a "great consumer-focused company". They make decent games, they have a decent store-front, and they release free DLC from time to time, but they don't always fix the problems that are in their games from release. They're still a good company, I'm not arguing that, just not anywhere near as amazing as people like to make them out to be.
 
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SilverHunter said:
black_knight1337 said:
Scars Unseen said:
They didn't say "illegal." They said "unauthorized."
They also said that the keys haven't originated from a legal source.

Charcharo said:
Since the source of the keys is not stated, id say CD Project Red are doing the right thing.

Better to cause a shitstorm now, protect the consumer and sort this out BEFORE the game is released, then be a jackass like Ubisoft.
It'd be one thing if they just urged customers to be cautious when purchasing from GMG because they don't know where they got their keys. But to go on and say the keys aren't valid, that they haven't originated from a legal scource and that they won't be receiving any of the money from those sales is a bit much.

Also, while they didn't specifically say where they got the keys, they did say that they were from "third parties and retailers that were approved by CDPR". It just seems like CDP really jumped the gun on this one, throwing out claims without even really knowing what the situation was.

Here's a fun little tidbit for you since you want to ignore it...
Just because a retailer was given keys or copies of the game to sell by CDProjeky, DOESNT mean they are allowed to sell said keys or copies to a reseller. GMG is a reseller. You may not of ever seen it, but I have seen games in stores (older games like during the Genesis era moreso than now), slapped with a sticker on the cartridge that said, and I quote "Not for Resale". The agreements these retailers made easily could of had clauses in them that specified no resales, and said retailers are likely from where GMG got the keys from. Breaching an agreement like that is bad for business... Which is why GMG won't disclose its buyers, because they'll be out of business then.

Face it. The reason the games can be sold as cheap as they are right off the bat is because there is a level of circumvention and under table dealing between GMG and these 3rd party retailers.
pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter.

I've used some of those sites (like kinguin) before to get keys dirt cheap, and more than likely GMG is just taking an extra little piece of that pie by getting the keys from one of those cheap sources of keys that aren't supposed to be resold. (Also with them not naming the source to GoG is what makes me lean towards this more.)

NickBrahz said:
Im not saying it is not there right to ask people not do, just as it is within peoples rights to spend $39 from GMG when CDPR is asking "No please buy it here from $80 instead" and how is it so weird that a company doesn't want to name there supplier? no company is transparent with where they get there stuff, GMG bought from some 3rd party and if they get named then CDPR will stop doing business with them, i like how everybody jumps to pitchforks and fire as soon as a large respected digital site does not want to list it's business partners instead of waiting for something actually criminal or disreputable.
Your argument here entirely revolves around regional pricing (a discussion for a different time, I don't agree with it but it's what is being used.) and GMG isn't using that since they typically revolve around a grayish area as it is, so their prices are all in US dollars while you're using australian dollars for the GoG price. Considering GoG is the one who MADE these keys and it's THEIR game, I don't see why it's weird for them to not expect a legit answer from GMG, it'd be like if all of china was suddenly driving 2016 ford mustangs, ford would be well within their right to ask china where it's sellers are getting their supply from.
 

Redryhno

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RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
Hm, weird, I hate to go all "works for me!" on you but I've never experienced any of those with the exception of the Yrden thing. In fact, 2 of my 3 (very thorough) playthroughs were before the giant enhanced edition patch was released, so either I'm extremely lucky or you're extremely unlucky. I'd assume its a bit of both.

Who would you consider a great consumer-focused company within the video game industry? I think CDProjekt got that title from the community because gamers - especially PC gamers - have been putting up with publishers and developers who are a thousand times worse. When you're used to being nickel and dimed for extra armor sets or paying 60 bucks for what is basically a game that should still be a beta, CDProjekt seem like angels.
Oh, I don't doubt a measure of luck was involved, but part of it is probably from me not really caring about alot of the aspects the series has and me conflating problems too.

And I never said they weren't a good consumer-focused company, just not as good as everyone likes to think. Angels by comparison doesn't mean much, I've watched enough Supernatural to know that you're better off hiding from both sides if you've got something they might want at some point. Their games have problems, and they don't like to admit or fix it enough of the time for me to drop them down to just a decent company like most publishers actually are. Heavily overhyped you might say.
 

Mr Companion

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In a statement GMG said 'Well if you didn't want this to happen you should have accepted our first deal, now you pay the price. We'll steal the keys if you wont give us them, perhaps you will be more agreeable now? All shall succumb!'
 

Strazdas

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The Madman said:
gmaverick019 said:
it'd be interesting to see where these "legit" keys are coming from, lol if they are getting them legitimately from someone else, how are they reselling them *again* at such a price and still making any profit?
If I were a betting man I'd say GMG probably bought the keys from a distributor at a reduced regional price and are reselling them at North American and European pricing. The keys are for Good Old Games which doesn't use region locking after all, which is often used to try and prevent exactly this.
On the contrary - region locking is what CAUSES this. if there was no region pricing this could not be done to begin with.

Redryhno said:
But I will believe them on this to a point, is there any reason we shouldn't trust GMG's stuff? I mean, if they did get them from an approved retailer, was there a mix-up in paperwork or something? Or is there a retailer that's doing shady stuff and GMG got caught with it?
they have repeatedly failed to provide evidence for their claim of legitimate third party retailer and lists retailer as Unknown. This is very fishy and im inclined to believe CDPR on this one.

chikusho said:
Let's get real here people.

GMG did not say that their keys came from an "unknown source".
GMG DID say that their keys came from "legitimate third-party retailers".
And i said i came from Mars. You should instantly believe me even if Martians themselves would claim that i did not and i would provide no evidence for it and list my origins as "unknown". but no, im totally from Mars.

NickBrahz said:
From the websites, GOG, Steam, Humble, all $75-80 where as GMG is $39
shows up as 51 euros for me which is 57 USD according to google. So thats still very much within the 60 USD for new game range.
 

Bat Vader

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Strazdas said:
The Madman said:
gmaverick019 said:
it'd be interesting to see where these "legit" keys are coming from, lol if they are getting them legitimately from someone else, how are they reselling them *again* at such a price and still making any profit?
If I were a betting man I'd say GMG probably bought the keys from a distributor at a reduced regional price and are reselling them at North American and European pricing. The keys are for Good Old Games which doesn't use region locking after all, which is often used to try and prevent exactly this.
On the contrary - region locking is what CAUSES this. if there was no region pricing this could not be done to begin with.

Redryhno said:
But I will believe them on this to a point, is there any reason we shouldn't trust GMG's stuff? I mean, if they did get them from an approved retailer, was there a mix-up in paperwork or something? Or is there a retailer that's doing shady stuff and GMG got caught with it?
they have repeatedly failed to provide evidence for their claim of legitimate third party retailer and lists retailer as Unknown. This is very fishy and im inclined to believe CDPR on this one.

chikusho said:
Let's get real here people.

GMG did not say that their keys came from an "unknown source".
GMG DID say that their keys came from "legitimate third-party retailers".
And i said i came from Mars. You should instantly believe me even if Martians themselves would claim that i did not and i would provide no evidence for it and list my origins as "unknown". but no, im totally from Mars.

NickBrahz said:
From the websites, GOG, Steam, Humble, all $75-80 where as GMG is $39
shows up as 51 euros for me which is 57 USD according to google. So thats still very much within the 60 USD for new game range.
I think the reason GMG isn't revealing who they got the keys from is because they don't want to get that company in trouble. By doing so though they are only hurting themselves. Saying a legitimate third party is vague and doesn't really help their case. They should reveal who they got them from. That way the keys seem more legitimate. The company that sold them will get into hot water with CDPR but that is their own fault.

I prefer to take the safe bet and either get the game from GameStop(getting the Collector's Edition), Steam, or GOG itself.
 

subskipper

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My first thought reading this (rather interesting piece) was, why the final paragraph? I think you did a smashing job in getting both sides to make statements and there is info enough for us readers to make up our own minds. I'm not trying to be obtuse or attack you or anything Steven, I'm just genuinely interested in why you added that last paragraph? I think this was a good, consumer focused piece aimed at giving us relevant info to take into consideration when making our purchasing decision. So kudos to you!