Woman in China was forced to abort her baby by government officials.

[Zorg Machine]

I'm only angry about the seven months thing.

If you live in a country where you have to pay to get a second child and you don't have money for it, don't get pregnant again. It isn't really that hard to do unless you are raped. Secondly, if you do get a second pregnancy and you still don't have the money to pay for it, get an abortion. I know this is incredibly harsh but if you drive cross country without having money for the gas, it isn't going to go very well.

It's a horrible law (whether or not it should be removed is up for debate though) but it isn't that difficult to keep these situations from happening.

 

[Yopaz]

You know this has been going on since the 70s?

It's been widely known for decades, this isn't the first time it has gotten attention. I think it's the first time you have taken an interest in it.

Seriously, this is old hat. I'm pretty sure China is better now than it was in the cold war era.

My thought exactly. I can't understand how this is considered news or shocking. Really, China is doing a lot in order to create a country with a sustainable growth and while it's sad that the world is like this this is actually an OK solution. They force people to have abortions because they break a law about not getting a second child. We force people to go to jail for breaking a law about not murdering people. Different country, different laws, different punishments.

 

[Bertylicious]

It kind of is worth remembering though that China is really, really, really big and what some sketchy government practices in one region are not reflective of the whole. Saying that, the lack of transparency & authoratarian nature are anathema to many in the western world but that is a discussion for the political forum.

You are making the assumption this behavior is politically motivated. It's not. Modern China is Chinese first, everything else second.

To assume that another culture behaves just as your own would - shares its values - and to pass judgement accordingly is bigoted.

I am not certain that word means what you think it means:

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

 

[aestu]

I am not certain that word means what you think it means:

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

And that is what you are saying. You are passing judgment on the Chinese people and their government based on your attitudes as a Western woman. Your judgement is inherently partial and biased against those who differ. Hence, you are a bigot.

 

[aestu]

I appreciate your feedback since you were civil, thus I am responding to your post.

Truth be told, I didn't really think of it that way where if the mother did have her child- because of China's struggle and population the mom may have to do something that scars or even destroys the child's life in the long run. And though China has a different culture, I still like to think we're all human. I remember recently that a small Chinese girl was ran over on the streets and crying in blood- yet the people who passed by did nothing for the child despite being there seeing this for themselves.

China's reaction proved they aren't so different from Americans because many showed their sorrows for the child especially knowing no one even bothered helping. So I like to think perhaps the laws can change, that there should be programs and a better life- yet in reality China's government runs things differently and I do not appreciate a mom having to be forced to abort. I had to go with my ex girlfriend to abort the baby we were going to have because of a medical heart problem..... so... imagining her being forced to abort is just awful overall. Again thank you for being civil and answering to my post logically.

I notice that in every emotional example you cite, the objects of sympathy are invariably female.

You talk about civility and logic. The Victorians that arrogantly tried to push their bigoted values on other cultures made a big show of "civility" and "logic" as well...but style does not equate to intent...no matter how "civil" you try to be, or sound, what you are saying is the very essence of bigotry...to think that you and what you think is right is universal and anyone whose experiences differ is evil and wrong.

You talk of "China's reaction". As if your own personal inference is representative of what all or even most of what China's one billion citizens think or feel. You're talking WAY beyond your place.

You talk about a "better life". Who are you to decree what amounts to a "better life" for another group of people! What arrogance! This is no different than Western colonialism and the "white man's burden" to show poor backward brown people how to live.

 

[Yan007]

I currently live in China for work and I heard about this news too. Here's what happened:

She was pregnant of a second baby. In China, it is illegal to have a second baby if you can't pay the fine (40,000RMB or about $6,000 USD, in her case). This makes it so rich people and party members have more children than the other Chinese people. Fun fact: The party member who worked on the one child law has 8 children himself.

Nevertheless, this abortion was illegal under Chinese law for the following reasons:

-It is illegal to force an agreement to an abortion. Not only was she beaten, they also bricked her house's front door so she couldn't escape.
-It is illegal to have an abortion after the 6th month of pregnancy.
-She is a farmer: Farmers are allowed to have 2 children.

What usually happens when a woman was already pregnant for a long time and can't pay the fee is that they will let her have the baby but he will not have any papers so the kid won't ever go to school or be recognized as a citizen nor have rights for all his life.

-Sidenote: Single children who marry with other single children are allowed to have 2 children instead of 1.

 

[Yopaz]

Some of these comments disturb me .. I understand the law is the law- but people are allowed to question whether if that law is really an aspect to society or just a ridiculous one that only inflicts communities in a negative manner. And this law, is wrong to me.

I don't understand how China can do that- forcing a woman to abort a baby. Regardless if it was intended or not, pregnancies do happen and it's not fully under people's control. Imagine if USA came up with a law that if you didn't have enough money to support a baby, you would have to abort it. Because of the law made, should we accept it and scold every mother for having a baby while being poor anyhow? I say no.

Well, you're being very idealistic here. Of course it's horrible that she is being forced to abort, but then again, the one child policy is pretty important. The way things are going the world population is growing rapidly and he growth rates are increasing. China saw this as an issue a long time ago and saw there was a need to stop this grave progression. In the past there has been cannibalism in certain parts of China because there weren't enough food. Children were being eaten. I think abortion is a better fate than that.

So she broke a law and that law has been in place for a long time. Punishing someone for breaking a law isn't considered barbaric by any modern norm. Now to consider punishment for someone breaking the one child policy. There's paying a fee, if she can't afford that there's jail, this will result in her other kid being an orphan (which in China is terrible) and the other kid being born inside a prison (even more horrible). Then there's abortion which will result in her not having a second baby. Considering the big picture here I would say abortion is the best solution since it's pretty much the only solution which doesn't make the situation of the child already born any worse than it is.

I could also go on about how the world population is simply too big to support the people already in it, but that's all been said a million times before and we don't really know how to deal with it.

 

[Yan007]

The women could have kept the child but she couldn't pay the fine. If she couldn't afford it then how could she afford to care for a second child? They admit it was illegal in this case but the fact remains, they won't stop you from having a second child if you have the means to actually provide for it.

Let's put this into perspective. The fee she had to pay was $6,000USD. The average farming family makes about $50-150 per month when things go very well.

 

[Leg End]

Some of these comments disturb me .. I understand the law is the law- but people are allowed to question whether if that law is really an aspect to society or just a ridiculous one that only inflicts communities in a negative manner. And this law, is wrong to me.

I don't understand how China can do that- forcing a woman to abort a baby. Regardless if it was intended or not, pregnancies do happen and it's not fully under people's control. Imagine if USA came up with a law that if you didn't have enough money to support a baby, you would have to abort it. Because of the law made, should we accept it and scold every mother for having a baby while being poor anyhow? I say no.

That's because you live in a country that has never suffered from a serious famine. You can say that this policy is wrong but would prefer a poilicy that reduced mothers into selling their children into slavery to survive? Or even selling their children as food? Because that's the level China has been reduced too repeatedly throughout their history by famines. Nobodies saying it isn't horrific what's happened but from the perspective of the Chinese Government the alernative is far worse.

Because heaven forbid grorious readers discover that most building materials are not fit for human consumption. :/

Seriously, instead of adding more smog, they need to add more green.

 

[Yopaz]

I currently live in China for work and I heard about this news too. Here's what happened:

She was pregnant of a second baby. In China, it is illegal to have a second baby if you can't pay the fine (40,000RMB or about $6,000 USD, in her case). This makes it so rich people and party members have more children than the other Chinese people. Fun fact: The party member who worked on the one child law has 8 children himself.

Nevertheless, this abortion was illegal under Chinese law for the following reasons:

-It is illegal to force an agreement to an abortion. Not only was she beaten, they also bricked her house's front door so she couldn't escape.
-It is illegal to have an abortion after the 6th month of pregnancy.
-She is a farmer: Farmers are allowed to have 2 children.

What usually happens when a woman was already pregnant for a long time and can't pay the fee is that they will let her have the baby but he will not have any papers so the kid won't ever go to school or be recognized as a citizen nor have rights for all his life.

-Sidenote: Single children who marry with other single children are allowed to have 2 children instead of 1.

I feel I have to thank you for posting this to show a deeper understanding for how the law works. Great contribution to this thread.

 

[getoffmycloud]

but honestly I think every country should be either a one child or two child(depending on population) law. As much as some people refuse to believe it, our planet has finite resources, it cannot sustain humans forever. We should be striving for an equilibrium for death/birth. The world cannot afford population explosions.

I'm glad you're not a policy maker. Shit like this is a big slap in the face. People should be allowed to have as many kids as the want, and be trusted with deciding if they can support said kids. The government has no business legislating anyone's reproductive tract.


Besides the population is more or less stablizing itself anyway. Birthrates in the west are dropping like rocks, and Japan's is so low that it needs to go up if the country wants to exist by the next millenium.

As much as it would be nice for people to be able to have as many kids as they want for the rest of time it won't work because resources will become scarce which will more than likely lead to war which these kids would end up having to fight. So really if it came down to 1 Billion unborn babies being killed as oppossed to say 3 Billion people dying in battle and lots of countries losing their freedom I know which one I would pick.

 

[Yan007]

I also read that bit about people leaving the little girl to die in the street. I want to let you know why people do this here:

Some years ago a man helped an old woman who fell down while getting off the bus. She asked him to bring her to the hospital and so he did. Once they got there she called the gards and told them he pushed her and it's his fault she got hurt.

The thing went to court and here's the final verdict: the man is guilty. Why (And this is the important part)? : The judge stated that according to the law of probability and reasonable actions, a person who is not guilty of hurting someone else should not do too much to help because if you help too much it means you feel guilty.

In China, if you help the little girl that was run over by a car it could play out that way: You are the only one around the girl , helping her, meaning you feel guilty of something. God help you if for some reason she survives and blames you because she can't pay her hospital bills and thinks you have more money than she does. Moreover, in China, it is usually much cheaper to pay for someone's death than for taking care of someone for the rest of their life. This means that the common folk here believes that if you hit someone with your car, it is better for you to "finish the job" and run away. If you get caught, you'll most likely have to pay a fine and do some jail time if you can't pay up.


I highly suggest you read this story to really get what I mean: http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/videos/female-bicylist-hit-by-vehicle-run-over-repeatedly-in-ningbo.html

 

[Yan007]

Sorry , this was a double post. (Internet problems here from time to time).

Sorry
Sorry
Sorry

...

 

[Yan007]

Have they stopped issuing their population control officers with stainless steel coat hangers?

They injected poison into the baby's brain to cause death then injected the mother with something else to force her into labor.

 

[Yan007]

Also, only 35.9% are actually subject to the policy and 3/4 of people support it. As you said, people are not rich over there, maybe they understand the consequences of overpopulation better than us.

Your reply suggests that people here have some form of social dialogues on issues and come to a general understanding of things. This is not how things work here. Think about how the Old West was and you have a good idea of how it is here. Generally speaking, laws are only followed when you expect to get caught and not having enough money to "help yourself".

 

[Denamic]

With the way the human population is growing everywhere and China's overcrowding, is it really a bad thing? It may be terrible for the mother but it's better than nature curbing out population for us IMO.

Well, since people in China consider man > woman, and you're only allowed to have one child, people have gender selective abortions. Meaning they abort the girls and keep the boys, creating a huge gender disparity. Some even have their female children in secret and sell them.
So I'd consider it a bad thing.