broca said:
Rebel_Raven said:
The only solution I see is to just make more female protagonists in a better variety than boobsticks, and ass shots.
This feels exaggerated. While there are games where females are only "boobsticks, and ass shots", it's only a small minority (e.g. DoA Beach Volleyball), especially when you look at the last few years. While i feel like many games use female char designs that feel out of place these are chars are mostly not "boobsticks, and ass shots", but often interesting characters who are also (often unnecessarily imo) designed in a sexualized way (e.g. Miranda from ME3). Even when you look at Dragons Crown and manage to ignore the art style, you will notice that the female characters are both capable fighters and as capable as the male characters. So if it weren't for the art style, Dragons Crown would be the kind of game we want more of.
Rebel_Raven said:
Women want power trips, too! And NPCs aren't going to deliver that!
The question is what a female power fantasy is. For males it's rather easy: saving the world through violence. Of course that is a extreme oversimplification, but if you look at male power fantasies (which are mostly shooters; or would anyone name strategy or sport power fantasies?), that what it boils down to. For females it seems less clear cut to me. But then again i'm male, so perhaps there is a typical female power fantasy and i just don't know it.
Rebel_Raven said:
And lets be realistic here. Guys, some of you like playing as a guy, right? Well, the same holds true for women.
Yeah, thre's guys that can play as women, and women that can play as guys, but guys playing as women seems to be easier because they know they don't have to often vs women who generally have to play as a guy, or not really game.
Sure that's not a universal truth among all gamers, but I still feel it valid.
In theory i agree, but i reality the important question is how many people wouldn't play a game because it has a female protagonist. Or to be precise: how many more people would play a game because it has a female protagonist and how many people wouldn't play it because of that. If, let's say CoD would sell 10% less with a female lead i wouldn't expect the developer to take that kind of loose. Of course, i don't say that this will happen, but it is a valid concern for certain games and genres and should be taken into account.
Rebel_Raven said:
Why do we ignore a lot of the absurd character designs guys get, more or less? Sure we poke fun at the generic white guy look we get so often, and the odd JRPG buckle collector, but at least there's -some- variation. Oh, look, Death in Darksiders 2! He looks somewhat unique! He's not a typical white guy in his late 20s, early 30s!
Women don't get that sort of representation. They might be well written, here and there, but for the large part they're boob sticks, or gratuitous ass shots.
BEFORE PEOPLE RAIL ON ME HERE, I'm not saying that these depictions can't exist. They should, but they shouldn't be the near all encompassing standard. I'm pretty pro-sexuality here. Thing is, I really don't see it balanced with Agency, and playability, which is grinding my gears.
If we had a variety of female depictions in at least known games, I don't think we'd be here. Why? We'd have so many differnt opinions because we'd have so many women to have opinions on that we'd be able to use one to argue against others, and so forth.
As i said above, i disagree that females are mostly "boob sticks, or gratuitous ass shots". Also, i think the reason that there are more interesting male characters and more diverse male characters is that there are just more of them. If you take a realistic look at most male characters they are either horrible written (e.g. Gears of War) or absolutely bland (e.g. Gordan Freemann), but as there are so many of them there is a interesting character from time to time. So, for me better representation of females in games would be a byproduct of more females in games, which of course is very hard to achieve. On a more positive note, i think that the problem will be partly solved on it's own. Every year story telling in video games get's better, both because developers and gamers care more and more about it and because developers get better at story telling, thereby (amongst other things) leading to better female characters.
Rebel_Raven said:
Okay, then there's discussion about guys who can't write for women.
Yeah, i never really understood that argument. Just hire a female writer if you don't think a male writer can do it (also, looking at books the idea that males in general can't write female characters seems kind of stupid).
Rebel_Raven said:
"Conventional wisdoms" are killing the industry. Not just the "conventional wisdom" that women ruin a game's chances, but that proper survivor horrors shouldn't be made because they won't sell, shooters have to be like CoD, games that weren't shooters have to be shooters now, tactical games won't sell, and other issues like that.
Oh, and one of the most dangerous conventional wisdoms of them all: "If I use this formula, I'll sell tons!" Yeah, like the God of War ripoffs sold well? Or the CoD ripoffs?
Those "conventional wisdoms" need to be discarded, priod. Developers need the autonomy to experiment again. I mean they're game developers. Isn't it safe to say that they're gamers, and that they have some idea of what it is they're doing in regards of making a fun game?
But the problem is how to change the way the games industry behaves. Because changing the way big enterprises do business is extremely complicated and often impossible even if not changing means loosing money or even bankruptcy (this youtube video explains it better than i ever could https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TmTv6deTI ).
And about the only way to challenge the "conventional wisdom" on females leads in video games is not used: kickstarter. Kickstarter is a platform for making the kind of games that "conventional wisdom" wouldn't allow and i believe that it can change the industry, as it shows that there is a market for certain games. Still there isn't a single important kickstarter for a game with female lead, which means missing a chance to show the industry that people want this kind of games.
On a side note: i really don't understand why there aren't more games with female leads on kickstarter, even as you only need a good idea and good marketing. Considering that a video series about female representation in games raised 177k, and the constant complaining about the lack of female leads, shouldn't the place be swamped with such games? It's kind of hard to not see the complete lack of such games on kickstarter as an argument against the idea that there is a important untaped market for games with female leads.
Rebel_Raven said:
The point is, we really gotta start treating games aimed at women as better than pastel/pink games aimed at pre-teens, and giving women, and guys some mature games. Mentally mature. If we want games to be treated seriously, we need some mature games that deal in grown up stuff. Mature is more than the lable we plop on GTA, here.
More mature games are already happening, both in AAA and indie (especially in indie games). As the cost of and the necessary knowledge for making games decreases more people make more indie games that have to make less money to break even. Less necessary knowledge means more diverse developers and less revenue to break even means you can make games that are aimed at a smaller target groups (e.g. people who enjoy serious games). On the other side AAA games make more mature games (like Bioshock Infinite or Walking Dead) because both the developers and the audience get older on average, so that there naturally is more of an interest in more mature games. This luckily doesn't mean that the games for fun will go anywhere, as the serious games get made in addition, not instead of the games for fun.
Rebel_Raven said:
I gotta say, cost is a factor barring entry. Not one I dwell on much, but this thread does remind me of it. I know I have a long backlist of games I want, and it keeps getting longer every time I can't buy a game in favor of something newer coming out.
Honestly, would games really be destroyed off the face of the planet if they had a $40 MSRP? A cool 1/3 off the cost? Man, I remember when games used to cost 40 dollars new, even on consoles. Don't you?
What ever happened to quantity of sales over quality of sales? If things cost less, more people can afford them, and thus more people will buy it, right? Surely the more people buying will overcome the discount, right?
Imagine the mania if games always cost 20 dollars? New games 20 dollars! People might start buying -2- of each game!
But that's probably a crazy idea.
I don't see huge decreases in the prices of new released AAA games happen, as i don't believe that the additional sales would offset the loses. Remember, you would need to sale 1/3 or 2/3 more of your games, which is huge, and even if gamers bought this much more games from the money they saved, instead of spending it on something else, there would be a high chance that the additional games they buy would be from other developers, so that in the end it would be still a loss for the individual developer.
But prices at release aren't that important anyway. Perhaps it's different where you live, but as i buy my console games mostly used from gamestop, i hardly ever pay more than 25?. Of course that means that i play console games often a year or later after release, but mostly that's okay. And if i feel like playing a new console game on release i just rent it from a video rental shop for 2? a day. And of course there is f2p, free games, indie games, steam sales, gog, humble sales ... on pc. So, altogether, prices really don't seem a problem to me.
Rebel_Raven said:
Sure, indie games are out there on the cheap, but there's a flaw in relying on them. They're mostly on PC, and mobile OS. That -really- limits the audience. That -really- demands that people put up with unrelaible systems (My android tablet's pretty unreliable, or is that just me?), and my laptop has about half the power to run a game that runs fine on the Wii. I can't really PC game. I doubt I'm alone in this.
Yeah, I can buy a PC, but when was the last time a console game had problems going into windowed mode, or had a missing file error, or got a virus, lack of controller support, or, well, dealt with a lot of the problems that PCs generally run into?
Yes, PC gaming is nice. I do recognize the benefits, and I don't think ill of anyone that likes PC gaming more than console gaming, but I just prefer the simplicity of the console. A lot of women, do too.
If you're interested in innovative, diverse and mature games (or just cheap or even free games), there's no way around pc gaming. It's not like this stuff does not happen on consoles, but the same conditions that assure the simplicity you like assures that much of what happens on pc won't happen on console (most obvious example: modding). Perhaps that will change with the nextgen consoles, but i wouldn't hold my breath. Yes there will be more indie on xbone and ps4, but it will most likely still be little compared to pc.
Rebel_Raven said:
While we're talking indie, the limited audience factor is what's also blowing the indie scene out of the water as far as being a saviours to female representation goes. Yeah, you're more likely to find women as protagonists, and tasteful representations to boot, but the audience is limited, and the gender gap remains on consoles due to that so it's not helping as much as people would like.
The PS4, and Xbone might adjust this some, but all in all, the limited audience is preventing indie games from saving us all from the sea of dude protagonists.
Further, indie games are seeds that require a lot of care, and cultivation to bring up. And a lot of those seeds are bad seeds. Those bad seeds never make it.
Even the good ones hardly compare to non-indie games at times, and I gotta ask, if you had to relegate yourself to purely playing indie games in the face of CoD, GTA, battlefield, Saints Row, Sports games, driving sims, and all the genres generally done best on a major console, would you be happy? I kinda doubt it.
I'm not saying don't support indie games, but expecting one to demolish predetermined notions in the modern main gaming industry is a bit absurd. If one does, they'll earn some respect. Eternal respect if they're responsible for slaying the conventional wisdom that playing as a woman in her own game, and causes the rest of the industry to catch on. >.>
I think that you understate the importance of indie games. Their potential audience is huge and indie games have saved hole genres (like point+click) from oblivion. Also, Indies should not save us from a "sea of dude protagonists" but provide a alternative for people who care. They are the same as independent movies in a world where most people watch blockbusters in that they allow stuff that isn't mainstream enough to exist (like female leads atm). So, right now indie games are a auxiliary release for people who want to play as females, nothing more and nothing less.
Rebel_Raven said:
Going back to money talk, voting with our wallets won't necessarily work.
1: If you find it offensive, don't buy it! Well, what if we find shallow, half naked sex object women offensive, and/or want to play as a woman? Ah hell, there goes 99% of games that year, right? Maybe even 100% some game years.
2: "eff you! Got mine!" is a reply we'll likely hear from the well catered to people that enjoy playing as dudes. They'll be that majority that people love throwing in our faces.
3: As the well catered to are in the majority, I gotta wonder if the rest can make a financial difference?
4: Getting large amounts of people to work together for long periods of time is effing hard!
5: Ever notice 2 things happening right around the same time? A decrease in variety of female representation, and the perils the game industry faces starting, and snowballing? I put forth that maybe people have been voting with their wallets for a very long time. That said, what has it really done? Yeah, that's prolly far fetched.
1: That's once again hugely exaggerated: While there are few female player characters in mainstream gaming, it's not zero, especially not when you take into account games where you can choose your gender. Also about females as "shallow", "half naked" and "sex object": most video game protagonists are shallow, independent of gender and half naked is not sex object.
2: The important part is to convince the developer, not other gamers. And as long as male gamers don't say that they won't play a game with a female lead, it is unimportant for the developer.
3: Either females are a important demographic for a game or genre, or they aren't. If they aren't, than bad luck. If they are, their money does make a difference. The problematic part is making developers see them as potential customers.
Rebel_Raven said:
It seems like every year, I end up kicking myself for not having a Vita, and a 3ds. Why? Assassin's Creed Liberation, Gravity Rush, Style Savvy, Pokemon, etc. Do these games EVER come out on consoles? Do games like them EVER come out on consoles? Seriously! It's like there's a few too many good ideas locked away on handhelds. Small wonder women gravitate towards them?
And, no, I'm not saying buying a handheld is the solution. I'm saying that I think handhelds are more inclusive and these games should get ported to consoles, or at least have the more egalitarian feel go to the console market.
Again, would you be happy if all you could play were handheld games? Probably not.
With handhelds, and PC, and in general, we should try not to segregate our gamers, and force them into certain game playing mediums. It flies in the face of integration.
Isn't it just that handhelds are usually japanese and therefore have alot of japanese titles that tend to have more female chars?
It's not a huge exaggeration, IMO. Sure we've gotten women with some substance recently, but sex appeal generally comes first. The post you quoted has my views on sex sells.
Briefly, I don't mind sexualization exists, but it shouldn't be the standard.
And you said it yourself. While we do get interesting women, we still get them unnecessarily sexualized at times.
Females are gamers, too, just like guys.
Violence works for power trips. Power trips are something that makes a person feel powerful/successful. There's women that play violent games. Honestly, a lot of the games could work if they were aimed a little more at women. Heck, aren't power trips generally a given when you play as a character? So women as playable characters would go a long way to helping the issue, period.
Generally, we want variety.
Yes, you have a valid concern about how many guys would be turned off by having to play as a woman. We don't really know. Thing is, there's a few variables that come in to play with this question.
1: What's the threshold of acceptance for the guy?
2: Does she meet, or exceede the threshold of acceptance?
And these things are all opinion based.
If a character os well done enough, I think a lot of guys will still play as her. If the game's good enough, a lot of guys will still play. If it has CoD, or Battlefield, or GTA on it, guys will still probably play.
And while there might be a loss of guys who don't want to play as girls, how many women are picking up the game because they're included, possibly wanting the next installment? The gender of the buyer isn't important, if you can get more people buying, then it's more people buying.
Honestly, I really wouldn't underestimate the power of being included. A game can go from "meh" to "I want in!" as fast as you can hear the news.
And it's not like I'm saying every game released in a year, and there's quite a lot of them, have to be aimed at women. Guys can get the usual service or better, too.
This year's been pretty good for female leads, I'll admit that. Next year? The year after? I worry.
Yes, there's a larger variety of guys as there's a larger amount of guys. That's the point. The larger amount means more variety, meaning what we get meet far less criticism. Especially harsh criticism. You don't see guys openly, seriously complaining about Kratos, and his musclebound ilk because there's Nathan Drakes out there, and Marios, and Links, just giving a short list of variety.
Women are generally relegated to overly sexualized, and model hot as playable characters. There's leeway with NPCs, but playable characters? You can generally forget it. And there's a lot fewer of them, so it's easier to generalize. Which is why I push so much for more female playable characters so that doesn't stay the case.
The video has a point, I guess.
The problem with the Kickstarter route is it seems like it leads back into making an indie game. I talked at length about my views on the indie side.
But I'm guessing you're pointing towards making one's own game using kickstarter.
Problem is I don't have what it takes to make a game. I just don't. No amount of sugar will change that because I lack one of the most important things a game maker needs. Vision. I don't know what I'd make.
My goals are way too high in slaying the conventional wisdom that women hurt game sales, and anything less won't have the same passion. I generally lack game making talents. That's just the way it is.
I don't begrudge a lack of female protagonists on the indie front. Indie Developers generally make what they want, and I respect that. There's usually no one above them saying "change it!" There's, hopefully, no dipstick on the team saying "Dude, this won't sell!"
There's 1 tactical mech game I think. I wish I could remember the game's name.
Honestly, keeping up with the Indie scene seems a bit much. As it is I scrape the internet for games I can actually play that have a female protagonist.
I'm waiting for more widespread mature games in the vein of Bioware games where playable women can have straight relationships openly. These issues seem harder for the industry to tackle, and less tackled. The barriers have to get broken down for a medium to mature.
Used gaming works much the same way here as it does where you are. While I have some games I want to get imediately, i'm putting a lot on my wish list I'll pick up later.
I haven't tried the rental thing lately.
Yeah, costs aren't as big a factor on PC, and mobile as they are on everything else, but I've been a PC gamer before, and I played more than a few PC games lately.
Thing is I use my laptop as a social device more than a gaming device, thus I need games windowed.
Torchlight? I tried running that in windowed mode, and had to jump through hoops to get it there. I tried playing some games I got from GoG, and they just wouldn't run. Having to go in and fix games that shouldn't need fixing is annoying.
Kinda easier to turn on my console, and change a HDMI channel.
I agree completely that indie games are the domain of PC gaming for the reasons that make PC gaming good.
Indie games haven't really saved much. Yeah, they cater to people who want it, but "saved" is a bit of an overexaggeration. Right now, indie aside, Tell Tale Games is about the only game company doing these.
I'm certainly not saying I don't want these games back in mainstream, though.
I'll give you they're an aux for female protagonist, but my laptop can't handle most of them, and they're hard pressed to be on consoles. they don't -do- console gamers, and non pc gamers in general a lot of good. That's the sad fact of the matter.
It's kinda unfair, IMO, to compare indie movies to indie videogames, IMO. Indie games require a lot of the same skills as a movie, and more, thus they're more difficult to make.
1: "It's not zero" is really cold comfort. A bad joke, infact.
It's not a huge exaggeration when I said you'll miss out on 99% of gaming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_in_video_gaming
Have a look at this. It's not likely comprehensive, but look at how many games are coming out. How many are women only playable characters? How many will have gender select? How many are flat out guy only games?
More telling, look at the console releases.
Here's 2014.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_in_video_gaming
Gender Select games are generally a bit of a cop out argument with me. Yeah you can play as a woman in Skyrim, but how much difference does it make from playing a guy? Even in Mass Effect, how much does the gender really matter? It's egalitarian in a sense, but sometimes you want a dedicated point of view from a gender, and guys get such things pretty often.
Considering the fact that a woman's agency gets chewed in to, a woman's point of view isn't easy to get. I'd like to direct you to the story about Remember Me, and Jimquisitions "cull of female protagonists" for some idea of how out of luck women are when they want a relationship for the female protagonist.
Game protagonists are generally aimed at men first, women second, if at all. Women are half naked often for the titilation of guys. Half naked guys are there to look powerful, and/or cool and draw in guys.
Statistically, women will find Kratos hot, but lets be real, here, Kratos is made to appeal to guys first.
2: The problem with convincing people in hard business ways is that the data doesn't really exist. They'd rather listen to bad data before they take a chance. Hence why I said earlier that Developers need autonomy to make what they think is fun.
3: Women will likely play any genre in the west, and more. They can be viable customers. There's women playing in some of the most toxic dudebro intensive games out there. Still, despite that, it's really hard to say that the industry is inviting to them. It's safe to say they could get more women involved if they made things more inclusive.
All I can say about the handheld market is that there does seem to be more emphasis on it in the foreign market, and we seem to get a lot of anything remotely aimed at women on them.
