Women gaming problems, solution discussion 1

[white_wolf]

I just wish female gamer wasn't so often tied to `New gamer` and `casual gamer`.
I mean, you've got a little disclaimer that female gamers have of course always been here, but then just really kinda go on to talk about new female gamers.

Every time someone brings up the number of female gamers there's always someone else quick to jump in and say `Oh but they're mostly casual gamers!`. Maybe they are, but core female gamers do exist. I can't make other women play, and frankly I wouldn't really want to.
There are some issues that core female gamers face, obviously harassment, but I'm pretty good at dodging that by remaining invisible and gender neutral in the right spaces, but there's more annoying stuff. I can't really talk as much as I'd like with new people about games without them assuming I'm either new or casual all the damn time. I've been told by different people that I'm somehow intruding on a `male space`. Then there's the stupid condescension, hell, even some of my friends get shirty when they lose to me.
I don't think we can do much about new gamers until we stop flipping out about the ones we already have.

It's kind of a no-win situation. People assume female gamers are new because we cant be `out` online safely.

Very true. I can't even go into the game store to buy my pre-order without someone assuming I got it for my boyfriend or assume I'm lost and need help. Maybe the latter is them being nice but when a man comes in right behind me that same clerk doesn't go to him and say, "You need help?".

 

[runic knight]

Twilight as part of a discussion of solutions?

Twilight is misogyny written by a woman, baffles me how grown-ass women love that garbage.

So, I say no to a Twilight game.

I think that was referenced as a sort of "why hasn't anyone tried this" sort of thing. WE all know how much companies like to milk successful intellectual properties, and games are no better there at times. Hell, we had star wars dance off for crying out loud.

Though, yeah, I can't say the lack of a twilight game is anything but good for the world in the end, as selfish a view as it is

Yeah...It's more of a "This seems like easy money" thing (Although movie/book based games tend to suck). Even the Hunger games wouldn't make that good of a game, though the main character has more potential as a protagonist.

For hunger games, I think that is less about sexism or gender preference and more about "Oh my god, we can NOT make a game about teenagers killing other teenagers after all the school shooters"

At least twilight you could theoretically go with "Vampire Deer Hunting" for something action related. With hunger games, it is hard to divorce yourself enough for kids dying to save that from being destroyed by moral crusaders.

 

[runic knight]

Wouldn't the cost barrier be the same for male gamers too? I did read your post but forgive me if I missed it, and by cost do you mean that they can't justify the cost of a game as opposed to actually being able to afford. Anyways, the best solution IMO is not making a big deal if you see a woman gaming or hear over voice chat. It's strange to me that people make a big deal anyways. I react the same way to women gaming as I would to see a sitting next to me in a movie theater. I don't (in the sense that I think it's normal and its not out of the ordinary and don't really think about it) :\

The cost thing is a barrier of entry for any newcomer, male or female. If someone sees something the like and want to try out, it will quickly go into how much it will cost to participate. Now for gamers that have been with it for a while, this cost is seen through the leans of a long term investment. We know a system will have multiple games and in the end we can balance out the cost to something more reasonable. With a new comer, it is a bigger risk. They have no surety they will enjoy the game, or even if they do now, if they will enjoy other games or not get bored after a short time. Thus, a $300 dollar console with $60 dollar games is very intimidating and a deterrent for new people to the hobby. Then start to add in how the community is viewed, how the community itself acts and everything else and we start seeing things get pretty discouraging for someone outside the fold to get into games.
Now think about how people learn about games. Advertisement, public opinion and the most influential, word of mouth. Because of how the community is more likely to treat one gender over the other, to say nothing of how companies often advertise, and suddenly there looks to be more then just supply and demand influencing thing. After all, why would anyone pay $400 dollars to be part of a community that may treat you like shit for not being there long enough, is seen by the public as only recently tolerable and "in", and may not even be enjoyed for very long before tiring of it?

You know, maybe this explains part of the reason women are more common in puzzle and sim type games, games with a much lower pay entry point. A lot less risk, quick and easy to get and get involved in, more removed from the core gaming community... hmm. Anyone have other thoughts on this one?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

And why should anyone bother to construct more compelling cases as they already have? For you? You've obviously been ignorant so far, and after reading such a comment, I doubt that's going to change.

Because while I'm perfectly fine with the status quo continuing on and into the future, you lot seem to be grossly unhappy with how things are progressing. So it is in your best interest to realise that there is an important difference between preaching to the already converted, and presenting your case to people who think differently from yourselves in a manner where everyone stands to gain something.

 

[Bruce]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

Gaming is optional. It is not something a person has to do - so making it an unwelcome experience for them means we get less gamers, and less people buying the product.

Because people change over time, and any business has to get in fresh blood to replace that attrition. If you only focus on the markets you have already got, you end up fighting for a diminishing market over time.

So expecting for example, women to harden up over highly unwelcoming conditions - they can just choose other entertainment mediums, and the market shrinks.

Making the gaming community welcoming to other groups and expanding the market has a beneficial effect for publishers, consumers and developers. If we can expand triple A gaming into a larger market, making it more appealing for women, more money enters the system because you have more people spending. That in turn means it becomes a more attractive market overall to enter, which attracts more developers, and more new publishers - meaning more games for us.

Not only that, there is a massive amount of untapped talent that isn't getting into gaming because they haven't found it an appealing medium. Most game devs start as gamers. Getting more women in on the consumer side, means getting more women in on the developer side, which means more talent is available and more new ideas enter gaming producing better games for the rest of us.

Telling people to harden up - ultimately you shouldn't have to harden up to enjoy playing video games.

 

[mecegirl]

You know, maybe this explains part of the reason women are more common in puzzle and sim type games, games with a much lower pay entry point. A lot less risk, quick and easy to get and get involved in, more removed from the core gaming community... hmm. Anyone have other thoughts on this one?

Some of it may be the marketing. They are just fun games that anyone can play. For older women (into college and beyond) it may be a time thing. I know plenty of gamers male and female who saw their gaming time cut short by responsibilities. If I wasn't a gamer since childhood I'd doubt that I'd get into gaming later in life because of time. Sim players are a very particular breed. Male or female they just like the simulated life thing and would regardless.


On the price thing I'm gonna go on a tangent. I remember what "games for girls" looked like when I was younger....absolute shit. I'm not certain if that has changed. Back in the day some of them had things that I was interested in, so if not for the quality I would have gotten them. But perhaps because I also liked video games that were not targeted to girls it always came back to one thing. Why should I ask my parents to pay the same price for a shitty looking game as apposed to a nicer looking one? It was more than obviouls that these games had small budgets. I didn't think that far back then, I only went by appearance, but considering that that market never took off it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of girls noticed the lack of quality. The Barbie ones probably sold well, anything else probably flopped. And with how some publishers are they probably saw girls not purchasing girly games as a sign that girls don't like games (When they were probably just buying any other game than the "girly" ones)

Now I don't know how well "games for girls" sell now. I do know that there are a ton of stereotypically girly flash games for free on the internet on sites like this one. http://www.dolldivine.com/ So any "girly" games on the market now have to compete with free games.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

Gaming is optional. It is not something a person has to do - so making it an unwelcome experience for them means we get less gamers, and less people buying the product.

Because people change over time, and any business has to get in fresh blood to replace that attrition. If you only focus on the markets you have already got, you end up fighting for a diminishing market over time.

So expecting for example, women to harden up over highly unwelcoming conditions - they can just choose other entertainment mediums, and the market shrinks.

Making the gaming community welcoming to other groups and expanding the market has a beneficial effect for publishers, consumers and developers. If we can expand triple A gaming into a larger market, making it more appealing for women, more money enters the system because you have more people spending. That in turn means it becomes a more attractive market overall to enter, which attracts more developers, and more new publishers - meaning more games for us.

Not only that, there is a massive amount of untapped talent that isn't getting into gaming because they haven't found it an appealing medium. Most game devs start as gamers. Getting more women in on the consumer side, means getting more women in on the developer side, which means more talent is available and more new ideas enter gaming producing better games for the rest of us.

Telling people to harden up - ultimately you shouldn't have to harden up to enjoy playing video games.

In essence you are making an appeal for wider diversity, and taken on face value I have absolutely no problem with this occurring. But making future gaming titles for a wider and more diverse audience should not come at the expense of the diversity that already exists, and that some of us already rightly enjoy. If you truly believe that the video game industry can make inroads into what is potentially an underutilized section of the market then there is absolutely no logical reason that I can think of to approach this problem with the objective of robbing Peter to pay Pauline. If what you say is true and I truly hope that it is, then there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit down and enjoy video games. If the potential for real market growth still exists then the industry should be able to construct additional table and chairs with which to seat everyone. Nobody, even the people that we don't necessarily like need to be deliberately left out so that our table appears to be a more attractive place to sit to people who might make up this future market growth. If there is one demographic that I do not wish to share my hobby with is those that need other people who also happen to be into the same thing as they are to meet certain standards and criteria, before they permit themselves to enjoy it.

Over the long term gaming will be all the richer if we leave narrow-minded people to their narrow minded devices. If the litmus test has to be that someone needs to be able to ignore the existence of games they don't like and get on with loving those games that they enjoy then that is a true recipe for diversity. Nothing needs to change, all we need to do is keep adding ingredients to the pot. And if the very existence of certain games ruins gaming for certain people then it is those people that ultimately have a problem and not gaming. This where people need to take their concrete and carry on playing the games they do like and learn to live with the fact that games they don't like exist and will continue to exist long into the future. A library is no library at all unless you can find within it a book that you personally find offensive. It cannot meaningfully teach or instruct. All it is good for is indoctrination.

I think the wider gaming community that does not favour anonymous communication and chooses to invest something of themselves in their online lives lean towards intolerance of intolerance, but for me that extends to those that would complain metaphorically that I sometimes chose to buy a nicely tailored suit over an equally nicely made unisex muumuu.

That just pisses me off.

 

[Bruce]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

Gaming is optional. It is not something a person has to do - so making it an unwelcome experience for them means we get less gamers, and less people buying the product.

Because people change over time, and any business has to get in fresh blood to replace that attrition. If you only focus on the markets you have already got, you end up fighting for a diminishing market over time.

So expecting for example, women to harden up over highly unwelcoming conditions - they can just choose other entertainment mediums, and the market shrinks.

Making the gaming community welcoming to other groups and expanding the market has a beneficial effect for publishers, consumers and developers. If we can expand triple A gaming into a larger market, making it more appealing for women, more money enters the system because you have more people spending. That in turn means it becomes a more attractive market overall to enter, which attracts more developers, and more new publishers - meaning more games for us.

Not only that, there is a massive amount of untapped talent that isn't getting into gaming because they haven't found it an appealing medium. Most game devs start as gamers. Getting more women in on the consumer side, means getting more women in on the developer side, which means more talent is available and more new ideas enter gaming producing better games for the rest of us.

Telling people to harden up - ultimately you shouldn't have to harden up to enjoy playing video games.

In essence you are making an appeal for wider diversity, and taken on face value I have absolutely no problem with this occurring. But making future gaming titles for a wider and more diverse audience should not come at the expense of the diversity that already exists, and that some of us already rightly enjoy.

And that is part of what I mean at least when I say we need to encourage a wider and more diverse market. And it is what I see from a lot of feminists talking about games, it isn't that they want to ban any game having X - its that they would like to see games with Y and Z being developed with significant budgets.

I think the solution isn't less it is more. I see a lot of people talk about sexy female characters - and what's the problem with that? Well there isn't one, but maybe we could do with a few who aren't sexy - just to have that variety.

And we need to learn from the stuff that pisses us off too. Think about the Mass Effect 3 ending drama - when did that really get bad? It was when the people who were complaining were told to stop being so 'entitled' and just more or less deal with it. And that was gaming journalists, and the profession hasn't really recovered from it because all that did was build rage and a sense of exclusion.

Somebody complains, that is not really an issue so much, there is always something to complain about and somebody to complain about it. Exclusion comes in, when those complaints are treated with contempt.

*edit for dropped word.

 

[broca]

The only solution I see is to just make more female protagonists in a better variety than boobsticks, and ass shots.
Women want power trips, too! And NPCs aren't going to deliver that!

More games could make the gender of their protagonists flexible too. It's not exactly like every game that features a fixed gender male protagonist has such a specific, tightly woven narrative that him being male matters that much.

Yeah, but depending of who you ask (or listen to on this forum) this is not enough. Part of the problem of making female representation better is that there is no female hive mind to agree on what making better actually means. Is a sexualized character a problem or not? Where to draw the line? Or are sexualized chars okay as long as applies to males and females equally? Are more female characters enough or does writing them need to change too? Are tropes a problem? Should they be completely vanish or just be less regular? And so on...

What's that supposed to mean? Sure, it's not enough for many, me included, but does that mean I shouldn't welcome a step in the right direction?

No, i just wanted to point out that this solution isn't a step in the right direction in everyones opinion, as i know people argued against it because it was considered not good enough. Sometimes in this discussions it feels like people (not you in particular) lump all females together and try to find a solution that works for everyone, even as the problems and opinions about what to do are often very different from individual to individual.

Taking a step in the right direction doesn't have to mean that you're already where you want to be after taking this step. Or, in your words, that it already is "good enough".

Or am I misunderstanding you here? If so, name one single person on my side of the fence who believes that making the gender of a previously fixed gender male protagonist flexible (insofar the narrative allows it) is a step in the wrong direction, and explain to me his/her reasoning.

The argument (by someone somewhere in the hundreds of threats on the topic) was that they wanted stories that have a genuine female perspective, not just a gender neutral one and therefore saw flexible genders as a distraction from that goal (that's at least how i remember it).

 

[broca]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

 

[CloudAtlas]

So it is in your best interest to realise that there is an important difference between preaching to the already converted, and presenting your case to people who think differently from yourselves in a manner where everyone stands to gain something.

Thanks, but I prefer to "preach" to the undecided and unaware than to those who I won't be reaching anyway no matter what I say. People like you, judging by your language.

The argument (by someone somewhere in the hundreds of threats on the topic) was that they wanted stories that have a genuine female perspective, not just a gender neutral one and therefore saw flexible genders as a distraction from that goal (that's at least how i remember it).

Fair enough, although I don't see why one would have to happen at the expense of the other. To be honest, I think few games have such a tightly woven narrative that they really need a fixed gender protagonist. Now I'm not a woman and making statements about what a female perspective might look like are out of my comfort zone, but I think a gender neutral perspective is perfectly fine for many games. If your protagonist is a soldier or warrior of some sort, he/she is first and foremost that, not a man or a woman, and a woman shouldn't behave fundamentally different from their male counterparts. In such gmaes it seems sufficient if only a small portion of the game is specific to the gender. You know, like in Mass Effect.

 

[CloudAtlas]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

 

[runic knight]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

Actually, I think the thread has just been following threads of thought in a way to show how things relate in the complex interconnected web and in some points the cycles that perpetuate the problem. Like how portrayal of women is both a result of marketing towards traits that are more resonant with males in general ignoring of female players, as well as lack of females in the games making industry itself leading to less perspective from them. Also lack of creativity and an industry that thinks so little of its audience. So all this leads to fewer female players, which is less demand for variety, which just fuels this behavior.

However, it is good to try to keep it on track with solutions, you have a point there. I have been trying to limit solutions to solely what we as members of the community are capable ourselves, given that the industry itself is near impossible to change by complaint alone. That was why I suggested starting with some sort of newcomer friendly resource list of cheap, and even free, games that can be played on general pc (people more likely to play the games when they don't have to buy a console or gaming pc in order to do so). I also suggested using a common application like steam because of the social connectivity built right in as well as the ability to moderate the group created within, therefore helping foster a more welcoming entryway into the hobby and to cut out as many of the factors that deter new games of either gender from starting up (that being, an inclusive, vitriolic community, a high price of admission, an unsurity of quality and so forth).

Would love to hear other people's ideas in that regard, or towards other ideas we can do ourselves to address these problems. After all, it will not come from top down very likely.

 

[runic knight]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Umm... what? I could have sworn that by delving into the why the community is like it is and why the trends are like they are and explaining how addressing those aspects improves things for not just the new comers but for everyone in general was attempting to make a case about in a way of self interest. Hell, I spent a while deconstructing the ideas of blaming others or attempting to censor ideas. I had a warning to that the thread itself wasn't about that and even reiterated that later on in the first post with things like "As such, ideas such as "no more sexualization" I want to avoid as possible solutions".

I... I can't fathom how what you posted here relates well to the actual topic and instead seems nothing more then your preconception of the topic by thread name alone, or possibly, just a few posts done here. I made this thread as a way to address what I saw as a problem in gaming that affected the entirety of the community. Now you come in and say the solution is to grow a thicker skin, ignoring everything from how variety itself is a good thing or that the current trend in gaming is bad, both for the industry (can lead to something akin the 90's era comic book crash because of condensing appeal to only a certain demographic eventually starts to bottom out as they drive off what would be new participants) as well as the gamers (because we do so love when the industry tries to "broaden the appeal" and writes off entire swaths of gaming in order to push out the same shit year after year, right).

I tried to explain stuff exactly as you say we should, in that of a way that appeals to self interest. I went at it from how it affects community, to how it affects the industry, to how it affects games made. What the hell else is needed to appeal to self interest beyond that, especially when the near entirety of the time I am also stressing that negative pressures or censorship is not the way to go?

I avoid every sort of moral grandstanding I could and explained it as simple as I could in a way that applies to personal investment. The current trend in gaming, highlighted by how women participate, is bad for everyone in the end. It excludes new players, decreases variety in demand and allows the industry to continue to view its audience as tools that are easy to pander to. This leads to fewer, less creative games as the industry fights itself for the golden chalice that is the 18-35 male demographic, but do so in a way that continues aspects of gaming everyone hates, such as copying the front runners and writing off entire genres. Fixing that is good because everything I already mentioned in my posts here, and already explained how addressing the issue can lead to improvements there.

 

[broca]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

While i give you that suggestions were made, they were mostly general but not practical ones. For example making the community more welcoming would be a solution, but that's no real helpful as it doesn't solves the problem of how to achieve this solution.

I took a quick look through the thread so far and have counted about half a dozen such posts. Even if you take into account the posts in response, that's (imo) really good for a threat with more than a hundred posts. Just look at the newest Sarkeesian thread to see what a bogged down thread really looks like.

 

[viranimus]

I find perhaps the most interesting part of all this constant talk about this issue recently focuses on this issue or that point really never really coming close to even understanding what the problem actually even is. Sadly much of this "discussion" in these countless threads boil down to mostly guys discussing differing points and perspectives of one aspect of the issue that they really do not understand has absolutely no connection to what causes the issue in the first place.

It is sort of like watching a husband spend obscene money on home security reinforcing all the doors and windows in the house because of a home invasion where his wife is raped yet is completely oblivious to the fact that the "rapist" got in because wifee LET him in and it was not rape at all as she was intentionally cheating on her husband and she never once tried to portray the affair as anything other than an affair.

 

[broca]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

Actually, I think the thread has just been following threads of thought in a way to show how things relate in the complex interconnected web and in some points the cycles that perpetuate the problem. Like how portrayal of women is both a result of marketing towards traits that are more resonant with males in general ignoring of female players, as well as lack of females in the games making industry itself leading to less perspective from them. Also lack of creativity and an industry that thinks so little of its audience. So all this leads to fewer female players, which is less demand for variety, which just fuels this behavior.

However, it is good to try to keep it on track with solutions, you have a point there. I have been trying to limit solutions to solely what we as members of the community are capable ourselves, given that the industry itself is near impossible to change by complaint alone. That was why I suggested starting with some sort of newcomer friendly resource list of cheap, and even free, games that can be played on general pc (people more likely to play the games when they don't have to buy a console or gaming pc in order to do so). I also suggested using a common application like steam because of the social connectivity built right in as well as the ability to moderate the group created within, therefore helping foster a more welcoming entryway into the hobby and to cut out as many of the factors that deter new games of either gender from starting up (that being, an inclusive, vitriolic community, a high price of admission, an unsurity of quality and so forth).

Would love to hear other people's ideas in that regard, or towards other ideas we can do ourselves to address these problems. After all, it will not come from top down very likely.

Yeah, there are certainly possibilities for introducing more players to core games by making access easier, but i feel like that kind of misses the point, as the main problems (imo) are harassment, stereotypes and female representation in games. What does it help when you get females to start gaming and then they quit shortly afterwards because of the other unresolved issues?

The way i see it, there isn't much the individual gamer can do. Of course, there's small stuff like telling people on a server you're playing on not treat female players like shit, but frankly, the offenders probably wouldn't even care. But by and large, small actions by individuals don't do enough much to solve the overall issues (assuming they even can be "solved") and make gaming more inclusive. For change to happen (aside from the stuff that already happens on it own) you would need to either influence the gaming industry (requiring someone who has influence and cares enough) and/or gamers (requiring a lot of dedicated and capable people working together). So unless some major company (like EA or Valve) somehow decided to dedicate major resources to make games more inclusive or someone managed to start a major movement in the gaming community, change will happen on it's own and therefore slow.

 

[briankoontz]

Build the games, and they will come. The Sims proves that, Angry Birds proves it, Bejeweled proves it, but the industry in general doesn't want to come to terms with it's own identity. It doesn't want to deal with reality so it buries it's head in the sand, cries out "we just want to have fun!" and hopes for the best.

"Build the games, and they will come"
Going by that logic the games already have been built, you listed a few of them right there. I can Google like a thousand other games that resemble simplistic puzzle/platformers/etc like Bejewlled or Angry Birds, there are entire websites filled with thousands of flash games and hundreds of small android/iPhone games floating around that simulate world-building (like Sims) or the sort. There is no lack of those games. At all.

So if we're happy with females primarily being interested in those sorts of games, then we should be totally fine with the current state of things. They are being appealed/catered to.

A bunch of low-budget no-innovation knockoff games don't appeal to anyone but fledgling game designers and crass capitalists, and to state that this is an acceptable situation for women is ridiculous at best, insulting at worst.

I agree with you that right now, the casual games market is much more appealing to women than the mainstream market. The high and even medium-budget games industry is seemingly unaware of the existence of half the world's population.

Because casual games are better designed for women and women disproportionately play them, it's created the impression that women are merely "casual" gamers and there's no point in the higher-budget industry paying attention to them.

A serious problem is that game developers don't understand the nature of what they are creating, and seemingly don't want to know. They are excellent at cloning and making small incremental design changes, terrible at innovation as well as deep understanding.

Indie developers who are innovating tend to focus on themselves, such as the creators of Braid and Fez, which is undoubtedly fulfilling artistically for themselves but doesn't help women out specifically.

Bejeweled appeals to women, but bejeweled is merely a drug and a toy. The Sims series are great games and shows the results of what happens when a game is designed which appeals to women.

But this was really just an accident. The Sims is part of Will Wright's obsession with simulating basic reality.

What would happen if game developers specifically designed games for women? Not in the insulting sense, like another Bejeweled clone, but seriously wanted to benefit women through the medium of video games?

 

[3AM]

I hadn't thought about the cost aspect, but that is a really good point. Games are pretty expensive, be it the games themselves, the consoles or even just a pc that can handle the high end ones.

Maybe we can address this and give the indie scene a bit of a boost in the same go? Maybe make a list of good, cheap and fun games that the average pc could handle without issue and sort of make it a gamer-intro pack or something? Even just through something like steam to help with the social aspects (and because good sales), have a list of good, inexpensive games.
I go pc, as that seems more likely then someone going to buy a console itself. Then again with the rise of smart phones and the blurring of that tech, we might start having more overlap between them then before. Would probably help to take advantage of that sort of thing.

I think because of the nature of gaming in general, there will always be a community. Movies and music have communities as well, even if only though their sub-genre (since the overall community is indistinguishable from the entirety of society itself). So I think the sports community root would be the best way to follow for example, if only in terms of acceptance.

Multiplayer community is a mixed bag. on one side, it is some of the best fun you can get in games just playign with other people. On the other, any sort of lack of moderation leads to the worst sort taking over. Maybe take that steam list idea from above and make a group for people to find other newbies to play with as well as players who want to welcome new gamers?

That's one of the reason women love facebook games they're cheap and run on any machine, and that gets them branded casuals with spite. Don't expect everyone to start off hardcore and don't get mad if they don't want to pursue games further. I got my mom to play 999 and Phoenix Wright by starting with sudoku.

But I guess that goes back to a more accepting community.

These statements truly confound me - cost? Cost is the reason females don't play games? Do females not work where you live?

OP: People play games they like, whether it's because the game is fun, or scary, or pretty or challenging or it's what they're in the mood for at the time. An industry or a community doesn't have to change because I don't like one of the products. As long as there's variety in games made I'll find (and buy) the ones I like and play them (on the computer I bought).

 

[carnex]

I have read the first post, but I cant really read whole thing since I do this during pauses from preparing for exams. Anyway, these are my opinions unless I state otherwise. If you lash at me, I may answer, may not, but if you calmly present counterview and support it, most probably I will continue discussion.

Anyway. I see this problem like one Hollywood had in thirties and rock'n'roll had in fifties/sixties. Combination of unproven and unaccepted medium and sudden inclusion of vast masses. As always, many among those who weren?t exposed gradually will do their best to oppose. Perfect example of that is extreme language competitive multiplayer communities developed in their isolation. "I'm gonna rape you, *****" followed by "yea right, more likely you are going to suck it dry" has meaning in gaming world that has nothing to do with its meaning in outside world. So when someone, gender notwithstanding, who isn't adapted over time to that particular dialect hears those he will be outraged. And reasonably so. You can't simply reprogram your brain, especially when such terrible things, like rape, are involved. This is one of those things that don't have "nice" solution. Movie industry, led by Hollywood in that idea, responded by massive censorship, idea I would go almost any length to avoid. Rock'n'Roll reacted by fragmentation. Most actually softened the words, but most problematic ones, those who were cause or ruckus in the first place simply carried on or even turned noise, references, messages and profanities to 11. I wouldn't like to split either, but I still massively prefer it to censorship.

Now gamers are different sort of problem. One you can look at, say "fuck it, its people. They will do whatever they want to do" . Other approach is to try to fight it. Nicely at first, then more and more harshly as frustration due to utter lack of effect you are having until you say "fuck it, its people. They will do whatever they want to do". So, yea, not gonna happen until whole climate changes.

Now as females in games. I will try to make several points and draw target across my chest. Anything you throw at me will actually improve my reasoning one way or another. So...

- Women, women up, own your sexuality. if you own it no one can take it from you and if someone can take it from you, you didn't own it in the first place. You relied on something or someone to reinforce it for you. Your gender fought long and hard for it, it's time to own it. That said, you can't own male sexuality, it's for men. Female and male preferences are different and you have to accept it. Half naked girl as player character is not you. It's sprite or collection of polygons. It shouldn?t affect you in any way, just like male characters in any role, situation and position shouldn't affect men.

- We need more female and better characters. We need better males to, and even that would help with attracting female gamers, but those are of less priority for now. We shouldn?t create female terminators and try to present them as vulnerable but strong resourceful, like they did with now Lara Croft. We shouldn?t create nearly emotionless and dead serious female warrior and then give her deepest "boob slit" (decolletage simply does not describe it) in history of spandexes like Samara from Mass Effect. We need more of Kate Archer, Alyx Vance, Jade and Giana Sisters.

- Girls and women, you have to spend money on games with traits you want. Also send mails and, even better, written letters to publishers and describe games you like. Don't make some uber fantasy. Write "I liked that and that game because of that and that. And also, in that game, that and that bothered me.? But don't go overboard, if your fictional product seems unpalatable to men, it's going straight to bin 100% sure. Men still spend several times greater amount of money in the medium. Until graphs show you spend equal amount of money you have no chance in hell to be taken as seriously as male demographics.

- Roll with the blows. This is probably the hardest one. You know all those guys who hold to themselves and never seem to really interact with people. Who quietly exist and everyone else either ignores them or simply doesn?t even notice them. Well, then you go to any gaming community spot, they are the loudest. Not majority, just loudest. And no one can do anything about that, sorry. So, you have to roll with the blows. Maybe over time things improve as new routine sinks in, but I wouldn?t dare predicting how social dynamic is going to pan out.

- If you like genre where vast majority of players is of the opposite gender, you are going to have to accept that publisher and developers are not going to do anything more then throw you occasional bone. You noticed how "match 3" genre got larger fields and cuter, shinier object in those fields? It's because female gamers are dominant player base in that genre.

That's it for no, back to Economy.