Women gaming problems, solution discussion 1

[shadowuser10141]

Also, with the community... I'd think I'd be more likely to be shot if I picked a female character. Not less.
Like... my boyfriend plays Trouble In Terrorist-Town a lot and uses voice. If I were to do that, I can almost guarantee I'd get shot more than him.
Maybe I should do that as an experiment?

I play on a TF2 server (which is another source game like Gmod TTT) and we have about 3 women who regularly play and talk on the mic. Nobody bats an eyelid.

So either:

A. You're playing on the wrong servers.
or
B. You have a chip on your shoulder. "Woe is me. I get hazed in game because of my voice. Feel sorry for me!"

I have been called tons of names by anonymous 13 year olds. Does that mean I'm going to moan about it on a forum or ask for kickstarter money for a documentary?
No, it's called having a thick skin. I don't care what anyone on the internet thinks of me, neither should you.

 

[runic knight]

Really I can't see this whole situation going more than one way and one way only.

Group A bitches about issue X, Group B bitches about issue Y and so on.

Game dev will look into these issues, and judge wether or not pandering to the people complaining will cause profit.

If profit is assumed, game dev will handle chosen issue according to their own judgement.

Thus, I dont really see the point in trying to come up with solutions on so polarizing issues, since 99% of people (Including the people in the industry) are so damn opinionated theres literally no chance of anyone listening except for the people who already agree with you.

Keep in mind it is the blind drive for profit that leads to DRM and other such practices that the customers oppose. Yes, supply and demand has a strong factor on things, but it is foolish to presume that is the sole force for why the market is the way it is now, or that the community itself has little chance of changing it.

Go back and reread a few pages, it goes over the why of the issue in a way that appeals to the selfish perspective. As I said before, I know well not everyone agrees that there is a problem, let alone how to address it, but everyone does at least acknowledge there is a definable difference in gender representation, participation and portrayal. I therefore looked at it in a way that would be good for all of gaming to address. And I already touched on why Group A bitches about Group B, the motivations behind that, why it is bad and how we can address it.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Really I can't see this whole situation going more than one way and one way only.

Group A bitches about issue X, Group B bitches about issue Y and so on.

Game dev will look into these issues, and judge wether or not pandering to the people complaining will cause profit.

If profit is assumed, game dev will handle chosen issue according to their own judgement.

Thus, I dont really see the point in trying to come up with solutions on so polarizing issues, since 99% of people (Including the people in the industry) are so damn opinionated theres literally no chance of anyone listening except for the people who already agree with you.

Keep in mind it is the blind drive for profit that leads to DRM and other such practices that the customers oppose. Yes, supply and demand has a strong factor on things, but it is foolish to presume that is the sole force for why the market is the way it is now, or that the community itself has little chance of changing it.

Well, as foolish as you claim it to be, thats how I, and many other people see it.

Invidual people act selfless, or even outright heroic at times. However, when there are entities, such as in the game industry, which consists of hundreads or even thousands of people per project, who are tied together almost solely by the goal of making money ie. making a living for the people involved, theres no place for higher morality. If theres no profit to be made with handling societal issues, its simply irrelevant for such large companies as in the AAA industry.

 

[TehCookie]

I hadn't thought about the cost aspect, but that is a really good point. Games are pretty expensive, be it the games themselves, the consoles or even just a pc that can handle the high end ones.

Maybe we can address this and give the indie scene a bit of a boost in the same go? Maybe make a list of good, cheap and fun games that the average pc could handle without issue and sort of make it a gamer-intro pack or something? Even just through something like steam to help with the social aspects (and because good sales), have a list of good, inexpensive games.
I go pc, as that seems more likely then someone going to buy a console itself. Then again with the rise of smart phones and the blurring of that tech, we might start having more overlap between them then before. Would probably help to take advantage of that sort of thing.

I think because of the nature of gaming in general, there will always be a community. Movies and music have communities as well, even if only though their sub-genre (since the overall community is indistinguishable from the entirety of society itself). So I think the sports community root would be the best way to follow for example, if only in terms of acceptance.

Multiplayer community is a mixed bag. on one side, it is some of the best fun you can get in games just playign with other people. On the other, any sort of lack of moderation leads to the worst sort taking over. Maybe take that steam list idea from above and make a group for people to find other newbies to play with as well as players who want to welcome new gamers?

That's one of the reason women love facebook games they're cheap and run on any machine, and that gets them branded casuals with spite. Don't expect everyone to start off hardcore and don't get mad if they don't want to pursue games further. I got my mom to play 999 and Phoenix Wright by starting with sudoku.

But I guess that goes back to a more accepting community.

These statements truly confound me - cost? Cost is the reason females don't play games? Do females not work where you live?

OP: People play games they like, whether it's because the game is fun, or scary, or pretty or challenging or it's what they're in the mood for at the time. An industry or a community doesn't have to change because I don't like one of the products. As long as there's variety in games made I'll find (and buy) the ones I like and play them (on the computer I bought).

Do you pay 90+ dollars for a haircut, why don't you own all consoles and a PC? Why not, do you not work? Not everyone is as privliaged as you, they have different priorities whether it be school, fashion or other hobbies. I wouldn't pay $460 to watch a movie.

 

[Phasmal]

I play on a TF2 server (which is another source game like Gmod TTT) and we have about 3 women who regularly play and talk on the mic. Nobody bats an eyelid.

So either:

A. You're playing on the wrong servers.
or
B. You have a chip on your shoulder. "Woe is me. I get hazed in game because of my voice. Feel sorry for me!"

I have been called tons of names by anonymous 13 year olds. Does that mean I'm going to moan about it on a forum or ask for kickstarter money for a documentary?
No, it's called having a thick skin. I don't care what anyone on the internet thinks of me, neither should you.

Wow, your experience isn't the same as mine so I must be doing something wrong or exaggerating?
Please.

I don't particularly want anybody to feel sorry for me, and I've not said anything about kickstarter so you're projecting pretty hard there.

My skin is hard. I just can't be arsed most times to use things like voice if someone is just going to take offence to me being a woman.
Getting shit cause you fucked something up or someone just took a disliking to you is standard, and I get that too. Dickheads who randomly decide to single you out cause you're female is another thing. I just wanna play normally, and usually remaining unknown is the best way to do that.

And yeah, there are a lot of accepting spaces, but it's certainly not rare to run into the kind of douchebag who has mommy issues.

EDIT: Also, I wasn't even talking strictly about harassment, just constantly being treated like an oddity gets really old. Imagine a majority of people being surprised because you can do something you consider an everyday activity. Imagine how quickly that gets old.

 

[runic knight]

These statements truly confound me - cost? Cost is the reason females don't play games? Do females not work where you live?

OP: People play games they like, whether it's because the game is fun, or scary, or pretty or challenging or it's what they're in the mood for at the time. An industry or a community doesn't have to change because I don't like one of the products. As long as there's variety in games made I'll find (and buy) the ones I like and play them (on the computer I bought).

Yes, cost. Keep in mind that if the average system is around $300 and games run $45-60, that is a pretty steep price if you want to start getting into gaming at the same level as people who have been in it for a while. And as I said, cost may be a reason people of either gender, not just women, don't play games. It is just that as a reason stacks onto of other reasons, that I went over already, and seems to discourage women disproportionately then men. Thus if we can find a way to bypass some of the discouraging hurdles people have to put up with, it could help increase variety in the player base, which in turn helps increase variety in the products supplied to that base.

As you even say, variety in games is a good thing. But you get less and less of that the more the industry tries to consolidate to appeal to a niche market. In fact you can probably see the parallels in how the market of the last few years has tried to appeal more and more directly to the big sellers (seen in all the WoW or CoD clones out there) and how the consumer demographic for the Triple A industry seems to be more uniform. Thus, if we want more game variety, it would help to increase player variety in order to get more demand for things besides brown cover based shooters.

 

[runic knight]

Really I can't see this whole situation going more than one way and one way only.

Group A bitches about issue X, Group B bitches about issue Y and so on.

Game dev will look into these issues, and judge wether or not pandering to the people complaining will cause profit.

If profit is assumed, game dev will handle chosen issue according to their own judgement.

Thus, I dont really see the point in trying to come up with solutions on so polarizing issues, since 99% of people (Including the people in the industry) are so damn opinionated theres literally no chance of anyone listening except for the people who already agree with you.

Keep in mind it is the blind drive for profit that leads to DRM and other such practices that the customers oppose. Yes, supply and demand has a strong factor on things, but it is foolish to presume that is the sole force for why the market is the way it is now, or that the community itself has little chance of changing it.

Well, as foolish as you claim it to be, thats how I, and many other people see it.

Invidual people act selfless, or even outright heroic at times. However, when there are entities, such as in the game industry, which consists of hundreads or even thousands of people per project, who are tied together almost solely by the goal of making money ie. making a living for the people involved, theres no place for higher morality. If theres no profit to be made with handling societal issues, its simply irrelevant for such large companies as in the AAA industry.

I am aware that many people see it as solely a market driven conclusion. That is part of the reason I spent over an hour typing out the huge first post explaining how it is not, in fact, solely market driven. And why I spent that time explaining the practical benefits of increasing the participation. And why I have replied to a variety of posts reitterating these points and the simple one that so many just can't seem to grasp is that This is not a morality argument.

I am aware that the industry is a business. I am also aware that as a business, the current practices and models will not last forever and is actively hurting the industry in the long run, as well as screwing over the fan currently. For a direct comparison, look back at the comic book crash of the 90's and you can see parallels all over. An industry with little respect for the consumers using practices designed to milk money from them as much as possible, chasing after stupid ideas of being hard or edgy solely for the sake of being hard or edgy because they think that appeals to a demographic with money and yet in doing so ignoring that you need to get new customers to replace ones who are lost over time, and that can not be done with the mentality they use. An over saturation of companies targeting the same demographic at the expense of all other tied in with an open contempt towards what made them successful in the first place and a mentality of excessive waste because they can not fathom the profits running out or that when everyone is after the same demographic, there will be a limit to how much that demographic can provide financially. Hell, we have already seen the fallout of this staring with companies going under because even though their products sold millions, it was no where near enough to make up the bloated budget spent on it in the first place.

Furthermore, as I said several damn times now, I have presented this case in a way DEVOID of moral grandstanding and instead concentrated on presenting it in a way that appeals to self interest of gamers and how it can appeal to self interest of the industry as a whole. Additionally, I have done all I can to spell out to everyone here that I do not want any sort of moral dick-measuring contest to go on and that I do not want to hear any dumb ass ideas about what should be disallowed or be forced to stop.
Go and actually take the time to read it, please. You reveal you haven't yet when you make such posts as this suggesting this is a moral stand here. While it can, and even at times has been, this thread is not and unless you haven't taken the time to actually read it, it should not be mistaken for it.

 

[generals3]

These statements truly confound me - cost? Cost is the reason females don't play games? Do females not work where you live?

OP: People play games they like, whether it's because the game is fun, or scary, or pretty or challenging or it's what they're in the mood for at the time. An industry or a community doesn't have to change because I don't like one of the products. As long as there's variety in games made I'll find (and buy) the ones I like and play them (on the computer I bought).

Actually cost does play a role but more because women tend not to be as much into gaming as men and consequently probably don't want to invest as much money as men. (which is also why the industry focuses more on men)

 

[deadish]

Now, in order to try and keep this thread somewhat civil, keep in mind this thread is NOT for
1. Discussing politics or political ideaology.
2. Certain controversial youtube video series creators
3. Opinions on what is or is not acceptable and thus should be enforced on the rest of the world.
So don't do any of that. We good now? ok.

The most notable of these of late tend to be participation, portrayal, and employment.

You broke your own rule already.

Participation and employment are highly correlated IMHO. Fix the former, you solve the latter.

The problem now is figuring how to create games that will be popular among the fairer sex.

 

[runic knight]

These statements truly confound me - cost? Cost is the reason females don't play games? Do females not work where you live?

OP: People play games they like, whether it's because the game is fun, or scary, or pretty or challenging or it's what they're in the mood for at the time. An industry or a community doesn't have to change because I don't like one of the products. As long as there's variety in games made I'll find (and buy) the ones I like and play them (on the computer I bought).

Actually cost does play a role but more because women tend not to be as much into gaming as men and consequently probably don't want to invest as much money as men. (which is also why the industry focuses more on men)

I would add that it isn't limited to women, but to all newcomers in general (with women generally more often the newcomers because other reasons). So it does seem to affect women more then men, but it isn't because of their gender and certainly not limited to it. Cost when getting into a new hobby can be intimidating and might be the point between someone trying it or just shaking their head and moving on.

 

[runic knight]

Now, in order to try and keep this thread somewhat civil, keep in mind this thread is NOT for
1. Discussing politics or political ideaology.
2. Certain controversial youtube video series creators
3. Opinions on what is or is not acceptable and thus should be enforced on the rest of the world.
So don't do any of that. We good now? ok.

The most notable of these of late tend to be participation, portrayal, and employment.

You broke your own rule already.

Participation and employment are highly correlated IMHO. Fix the former, you solve the latter.

The problem now is figuring how to create games that will be popular among the fairer sex.

Not quite. As I haven't gotten to portrayal, I haven't gotten into any sort of argument about what is right yet, and if you must know, I have no desire to get into a moral discussion on that. That said, one can still look at portrayal in aspects such as lack there of without making claims about if it is acceptable. It is pretty easy to state how something is without making it a moral claim, and even when going into a discussion on changing things, one can still leave out morality and instead concentrate on cause and effect in a more general way. Thus at no point would it be "this or that is acceptable or not", rather, "if we want this conclusion, this option may work more towards that." Also, I used the term "acceptable" to avoid any sort of moral grandstanding about how women can or can not be portrayed, not because I had no intention of mentioning portrayal at all.

Surely you can see the difference between the two now, yes?

 

[deadish]

Not quite. As I haven't gotten to portrayal, I haven't gotten into any sort of argument about what is right yet, and if you must know, I have no desire to get into a moral discussion on that. That said, one can still look at portrayal in aspects such as lack there of without making claims about if it is acceptable. It is pretty easy to state how something is without making it a moral claim, and even when going into a discussion on changing things, one can still leave out morality and instead concentrate on cause and effect in a more general way. Thus at no point would it be "this or that is acceptable or not", rather, "if we want this conclusion, this option may work more towards that." Also, I used the term "acceptable" to avoid any sort of moral grandstanding about how women can or can not be portrayed, not because I had no intention of mentioning portrayal at all.

Surely you can see the difference between the two now, yes?

The way women are portrayed in games should be up to the designers. That's all I really have to say.

That said, personally from what I have seen, scantily clad women - which is what most people here ***** about - aren't really "offensive" to women per se. Having skimmed a good number of shoujo manga and animation, there is almost always a hot women or two in them (and I mean "really hot", full bust, shapely hips and all), commonly in the role of best friend of the protagonist - I believe women appreciate a good specimen of the female form too.

PS: LOL, the captcha is "don't waste time".

 

[runic knight]

Not quite. As I haven't gotten to portrayal, I haven't gotten into any sort of argument about what is right yet, and if you must know, I have no desire to get into a moral discussion on that. That said, one can still look at portrayal in aspects such as lack there of without making claims about if it is acceptable. It is pretty easy to state how something is without making it a moral claim, and even when going into a discussion on changing things, one can still leave out morality and instead concentrate on cause and effect in a more general way. Thus at no point would it be "this or that is acceptable or not", rather, "if we want this conclusion, this option may work more towards that." Also, I used the term "acceptable" to avoid any sort of moral grandstanding about how women can or can not be portrayed, not because I had no intention of mentioning portrayal at all.

Surely you can see the difference between the two now, yes?

The way women are portrayed in games should be up to the designers. That's all I really have to say.

That said, personally from what I have seen, scantily clad women - which is what most people here ***** about - aren't really "offensive" to women per se. Having skimmed a good number of shoujo manga and animation, there is almost always a hot women or two in them (and I mean "really hot", full bust, shapely hips and all), commonly in the role of best friend of the protagonist - I believe women appreciate a good specimen of the female form too.

PS: LOL, the captcha is "don't waste time".

I have no qualms at all with scantily clad female characters. Hell, I regularly defend the practice and the creator's choice in using them, just look up the Dragon's Crown discussions. But one can look at portrayal and see a disparity in things, and one can try to understand both the effects that has and the why of it in the first place, which is what the core of this thread tries to do in all topics before delving into solutions, or even if a solution is nessesary.

Now myself, I would rather just see more games in general and more variety. Keep the ones with the stylized sexuality or the skimpy outfits or the over the top sexiness, but encourage more games to be made overall and have some new ones increase the variety in character types, protagonist portrayal and other aspects.

As said in the first post, I don't want to hear people claiming companies should not do something, especially in a moral argument. Rather, I want more variety and options in general because that is good for the industry and the fans. And one of the ways I was suggesting to help that is to increase variety of demand by helping increase the participation of other demographics, particularly of the female ones. Variety in demand can lead to variety of product, which is more choice for all gamers.
Let the designers make the characters they want to, but increase demand for more types. It is pretty obvious that the designers can listen to the money (and even if some don't, the publishers sure do). and beyond even that, it could help fight when developer decisions are actually impeded by publishers because of the perceptions of the market due to lack of variety in the player base. See the posted examples Raven mentioned about how developers were pressured into design choices by publishers.

 

[Bonecrusher]

A great topic runicknight.

Err.. no one will care about my thoughts, but I still want to tell a few things (If someone reads)

Female gamers tend to play singleplayer games. Farmville, Sims, GTA3, Dishonored, Binding Of Isaac vs... But they don't like play multiplayer and competitive games.
However they play multiplayer games, if their boyfriends or brothers want them to play.

I hate Anita's (and similar) feminist ideas. Making games more female supremacy will not help games. Women can roleplay male characters as much as Men roleplay female characters.
However it is still good to see more female main characters - Just don't force them into the game. Oni, new Tomb Raider, Beyond Good & Evil, Portal 1-2 were good games.

Not every female gamers want "calm" games. Many of the females I've met likes to play bloody action games. So we don't have to make fluffy squeshy games just to appeal them. We can still make action games. However some effort to make the player feel empathy towards the characters, can appeal more women. Some romance and dram won't hurt either.

 

[shadowuser10141]

I play on a TF2 server (which is another source game like Gmod TTT) and we have about 3 women who regularly play and talk on the mic. Nobody bats an eyelid.

So either:

A. You're playing on the wrong servers.
or
B. You have a chip on your shoulder. "Woe is me. I get hazed in game because of my voice. Feel sorry for me!"

I have been called tons of names by anonymous 13 year olds. Does that mean I'm going to moan about it on a forum or ask for kickstarter money for a documentary?
No, it's called having a thick skin. I don't care what anyone on the internet thinks of me, neither should you.

Wow, your experience isn't the same as mine so I must be doing something wrong or exaggerating?
Please.

I don't particularly want anybody to feel sorry for me, and I've not said anything about kickstarter so you're projecting pretty hard there.

My skin is hard. I just can't be arsed most times to use things like voice if someone is just going to take offence to me being a woman.
Getting shit cause you fucked something up or someone just took a disliking to you is standard, and I get that too. Dickheads who randomly decide to single you out cause you're female is another thing. I just wanna play normally, and usually remaining unknown is the best way to do that.

And yeah, there are a lot of accepting spaces, but it's certainly not rare to run into the kind of douchebag who has mommy issues.

EDIT: Also, I wasn't even talking strictly about harassment, just constantly being treated like an oddity gets really old. Imagine a majority of people being surprised because you can do something you consider an everyday activity. Imagine how quickly that gets old.

My main point is that I am tired of the myth that this issue exclusively affects women and something about me being a privileged male who doesn't have to deal with this and if only I knew what it was like...blah blah.
I'm not claiming you said this but I hear this a lot on the internet.

You can't fight trolls. Just find a server with a nice community and a decent admin who will punish people for bullying.
There are plenty of them out there. Valve games have mostly good communities.

The kickstarter comment was a reference to a campaign where someone wanted money for a documentary about 13 year olds making sandwich jokes.
Contrast that with someone like me who just ignores trolls.

I just wanna play normally, and usually remaining unknown is the best way to do that.

That's how I play 90% of the time. Generic Steam name, no personal information, keep my head down etc...
Best way to play.

If you are using the mic then you are potentially drawing yourself into an argument with other players.

Protip: Putting something like "gamer gurl" in your gamertag/clan tag is seen as attention whoring by some people and they might troll you because of it.
Not saying you do that, just giving you a heads up.

 

[Dante dynamite]

Huh the thing is that a lot of people are saying that if you make a games with a great protagonist great gameplay and is a blockbuster action title it will attract more women into what is generally considered "core" gaming. I feel its won't do that much except in the long run and I mean generation long. Now hear me out I go to a small international school approx 300 students and 50 nationalities in total its small enough that you get to know everyone to the point of an acquaintance so in my entire school there is a very small number of gamer girls that play games beyond iPhone puzzle games angry birds and the like. Even fewer who play games outside the unisex games like Mario (or at least the cheap Knock-off we have on the school computers) Pokemon, The Sims and harvest moon (I have no problem with that it doesn't make their enjoyment for games any less important than mine) while many guys are interested in gaming especially the big titles. Most girls show no interest in gaming and have no interest in playing games even if it had a great female character and for sure none of them would even touch call of duty and gta they see it all as very pointless and juvenile regardless of who the protagonist is, and its not because the guys have some sort of boys club mentality in fact many of us try to get them into gaming (except for those retarded year 8 boys who are so stupid its like they live in a perpetual state idiot 12 year old boys CoD players (seriously several of them told me they didn't like star wars was because they couldn't follow the story in any sense because it was too complex and they think things like pixar movies are gay)). Regardless of what many think stereotypes do exist and in large numbers a very large majority of girls in my school are into stereotypically girl things like dancing and fashion and guys in my school are generally into stereotypically guy things like video games and sports (though I believe that tastes should be universal and there should be no stereotypes) there is also the popularity of things like twilight among women and Porn magazines for men (sorry couldn't think of anything better).

I honestly believe that we should have something like the romantic comedies of video games types of games that appeal more to women (not those fucking barbie games or anything of the like that only entertains very young girls) i don't know what it is going to be like but i do believe that that will bring in more women into gaming.

Note: not against more good female characters and i understand that even though there are many stereotypical people out there there are also a large amount that don't fit in those stereotypes and those women (especially those in the forum with us I presume) enjoy the mainstream triple A games that most of us guys enjoy and would like more female characters in their games and I think they should I just don't believe that will help the situation greatly in the short run.

P.S when did hating female gamers become a thing i remember when there was always the thing in the gaming community that if any gaming guy met a gaming girl he would try to marry her on the spot? then this fake geek girl thing happened and it seemed to have disappeared in an instant.

 

[Phasmal]

My main point is that I am tired of the myth that this issue exclusively affects women and something about me being a privileged male who doesn't have to deal with this and if only I knew what it was like...blah blah.
I'm not claiming you said this but I hear this a lot on the internet.

Right. You obviously already have a lot of feelings about this issue.
I'm not gonna say that male gamers don't face problems.
I am gonna say, they're often different problems.
I mean, you're unlikely to get someone get all snippy cause they just `cant stand` to lose to a guy. You're unlikely to get unending sexual remarks. Or have someone say to you that you playing games ruins them and that they play games specifically to avoid men.
And here's a study to show that women's voices on average get 3 times more abuse than men's voices or no voices: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php.
Now, why I am I bringing all that up? Is it to make you feel bad?
No.
As you yourself said, who should care what others on the internet think? I don't have any interest in making you feel bad for being male. You feeling bad or not about this changes nothing for me.

You can't fight trolls. Just find a server with a nice community and a decent admin who will punish people for bullying.
There are plenty of them out there. Valve games have mostly good communities.

I think I already mentioned before. I'm pretty good at ducking the worse areas.

The kickstarter comment was a reference to a campaign where someone wanted money for a documentary about 13 year olds making sandwich jokes.
Contrast that with someone like me who just ignores trolls.

Dismissing people who try and push out female gamers as all being `13` is a little dishonest, but as I said, you clearly already have existing opinions on this which I wish you would not put onto me.

That's how I play 90% of the time. Generic Steam name, no personal information, keep my head down etc...
Best way to play.

If you are using the mic then you are potentially drawing yourself into an argument with other players.

I like using mic. It's fun. Excuse me for not thinking my actual voice is reason for argument. I don't use mic outside spaces I consider to be safe unless I'm on a private voice server with my friends.

Protip: Putting something like "gamer gurl" in your gamertag/clan tag is seen as attention whoring by some people and they might troll you because of it.
Not saying you do that, just giving you a heads up.

I have been on the internet for more than five minutes, you know.
And also, it should be noted that I have several people I game with who have `Mr/Sir/Gentlemen/Guy` etc in their username or use their real name which is undoubtedly male. I guess they are all whores, right?

I have no interest really in browbeating you about this. I just think we experience these issues differently.

 

[generals3]

Right. You obviously already have a lot of feelings about this issue.
I'm not gonna say that male gamers don't face problems.
I am gonna say, they're often different problems.
I mean, you're unlikely to get someone get all snippy cause they just `cant stand` to lose to a guy. You're unlikely to get unending sexual remarks. Or have someone say to you that you playing games ruins them and that they play games specifically to avoid men.

Well due to the male prevalence in games it's quite normal men don't get the sexual remarks or things like "i play to specifically avoid men". However the getting snippy is something everyone faces. And that's simply because lots of people can't stand losing. I can't even count the amount of times I was called a cheater, hacker, asshole, fucker and so on in RTS's because I handed my opponent's ass to him. And I would also like to note that some women are using the opposite kind of abuse. Recently on CoD there was a woman who just couldn't resist telling us how much we sucked because she, a woman, had the most kills. She was making fun of us because we, men, were "beaten" by her, a woman.

Now you're right the problems are different but at the same time they are not as much as people may like to think. There are simply a lot of idiotic trolls with anger issues on the net. They'll just hate anyone for any reason and gender just happens to be one of the reasons (but it is not limited to that).

 

[Phasmal]

Well due to the male prevalence in games it's quite normal men don't get the sexual remarks or things like "i play to specifically avoid men". However the getting snippy is something everyone faces. And that's simply because lots of people can't stand losing. I can't even count the amount of times I was called a cheater, hacker, asshole, fucker and so on in RTS's because I handed my opponent's ass to him. And I would also like to note that some women are using the opposite kind of abuse. Recently on CoD there was a woman who just couldn't resist telling us how much we sucked because she, a woman, had the most kills. She was making fun of us because we, men, were "beaten" by her, a woman.

Now you're right the problems are different but at the same time they are not as much as people may like to think. There are simply a lot of idiotic trolls with anger issues on the net. They'll just hate anyone for any reason and gender just happens to be one of the reasons (but it is not limited to that).

Yeah, I've never bragged with the `You got beaten by a girl`, because it kind of implies that.. you shouldn't be beaten by a girl, you know? Like it's something to be ashamed of.

But I was more referring to the experience of someone not wanting to lose to you specifically because you are a girl. I've known some people in my time that I've gamed with who weren't particularly good, so were kind of experienced at losing but got really defensive when it came to losing to me. It's kinda stupid.

I just think people don't really `get` the other side. I still have friends who seem to think it's a non-stop bed of roses and guys giving me things being a female gamer. Uh, no.
Pretty much all my friends are guys, and I game with mostly guys, and I see what they have to put up with, and it's just.. different.

 

[Something Amyss]

I just think people don't really `get` the other side.

only if they lack empathy or reason.

I've never bought into the notion that people can't get the other side. Maybe they don't, but usually only if they're never confronted or they're completely selfish dicks.

That latter part tends to be the case in gaming. We court a userbase of selfish, self-entitled man-children. And I'm sorry to the people who don't fit that or whatever, but yeah, that's kind of the audience in question. This is why we as a communit throw self-righteous fits if a single reviewer doesn't rate our game of choice as high as we'd like. This is why there's a fit at even the suggestion of diversity, because MINE!!!!!!!!!!

We want to be treated like a serious medium, but behave like children.

And it's not just gamers. Geek culture as a whole. Hell, this site has had numerous people state someone was mean to them, and they like to pass it on. A lot of them justifying specifically the exclusion of women, to boot.

And for the record, I do "get" where both sexes are coming from. I just think one side is often dumb and reeks of entitlement. Guys ***** about women as if they're owed companionship and sex quite frequently, especially if they think they're alone in a safe "male space." Women aren't specifically immune to that, but it's not bolstered by cultural dominance nor is it the given standard. We have entire swathes of the language dedicated to the male mentality, things like "the friend zone." Hell, there's practically a cottage industry built around that one term.

Simply put, men, specifically in this context, don't think because they don't have to. Though more broadly put, it tends to happen whenever you're in power or the majority (which generally implies power, but not always).