World of Warcraft Sets the Standard for Pay MMOs, Says Champions Online Dev

ionveau

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The problem is they dont add things to the MMO game they just try to be WoW
look at all the MMOs out there
how many give you more then 5 skills at level one?
how many have levels all of them how many are about you right clicking on a person for 10-20sec to kill more people
Why do all MMO RPS need to have stats to pump up?

make a game like savage 2 but open world? i would get it
 

ionveau

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boholikeu said:
MaVeN1337 said:
"You're skating uphill if you don't offer a free-to-play option," he added. "World of Warcraft has pretty much sucked the oxygen out of the subscription market and kind of devoured it itself."

If i had a goddamn nickel for every freaking time I said this since 2007 I would be. filthy fucking rich.

The most upsetting part of the whole thing, Is Blizzard stole all there ideas from Everquest, then completely missed the point of an MMO and made a far too easy game. WoW Is the instant gratification, juvenile, cartoony looking, joke version of everquest and it's predecessors.

Also it spawned like a million wow clones spreading the players who quit WoW so thin, no single game could do quite as well as it should have.
traukanshaku said:
This, nail on the head, QFT, etc.

WoW is pretty much Everquest for Morons. Fortunately for Blizzard, and unfortunately for the rest of us, morons are a huge market, so Blizzard lit a rocket under their ass and took a trip straight to the financial ionosphere. Now, even the intelligent people that don't even like the game any more still feel like they have too much time invested to quit.

Nothing but WoW will kill WoW. It really looked like it was heading that way until the Cataclysm info came out - now, we'll have to see. I've still got my fingers crossed that the great, rotting behemoth will fall straight through the ground and into hell where it belongs, but I doubt it'll happen.
I always like when people complain that wow "ruined" MMOs by making them "easy enough for any moron".

Nevermind that most of the "dumbing down" was actually fixing broken things in the genre. Almost everything you'd name as ruining the genre would actually be considered a great design choice by the majority of developers.
Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers
 

Abedeus

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
You could always try fixing the broken games you leave behind Jack.

Just a thought.

Like fixing PvP in CoH/V, PvE in Champions, supporting the CCG, supporting the RPG, playtesting power combinations before release, not introducing new rules after release...general things like that.

Maybe then you could try charging for games, because all those people who paid for life time membership of Champions MIGHT be slightly miffed with all the people who get to do the same for free.

But then, you're already working on Neverwinter, which I'm sure will...have areas of rigidly defined "fun".
One thing I disagree with - you don't get the same things for free. Less champion slots, archetypes (not powersets), adventure packs and no tech support, limited access to forums...
 

theultimateend

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MaVeN1337 said:
The most upsetting part of the whole thing, Is Blizzard stole all there ideas from Everquest, then completely missed the point of an MMO and made a far too easy game.
Everytime a person makes that stupid argument of "X stole Y's Idea" somewhere someone strangles a kitten in front of it's mother then beats her with it.

Because it's the most fruitless and foolish point to make.

Every intellectual venture ever, was an evolution, however small, of something before it.

Until you get so far back that it is people "stealing" ideas from animals.

Some of the most famous symphonies of our past are hybridized and "stolen" from freaking bird calls -.-.

So please, just stop, anytime you see anyone else make that point, just verbally slap them.

Maybe then we'll start discussing things that actually have any meaningful point.

But judging from the rest of what you said I'm just guessing you are someone that doesn't like things merely because they aren't up your alley.

I don't think WOW is a godsend or anything, I only grab about a month a year of playtime. But just about every word you used to describe it screams of having never played it. "cue telling me you have a full account of level 80's and full epic gear with every achievement unlocked."
 

Red Albatross

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boholikeu said:
MaVeN1337 said:
"You're skating uphill if you don't offer a free-to-play option," he added. "World of Warcraft has pretty much sucked the oxygen out of the subscription market and kind of devoured it itself."

If i had a goddamn nickel for every freaking time I said this since 2007 I would be. filthy fucking rich.

The most upsetting part of the whole thing, Is Blizzard stole all there ideas from Everquest, then completely missed the point of an MMO and made a far too easy game. WoW Is the instant gratification, juvenile, cartoony looking, joke version of everquest and it's predecessors.

Also it spawned like a million wow clones spreading the players who quit WoW so thin, no single game could do quite as well as it should have.
traukanshaku said:
This, nail on the head, QFT, etc.

WoW is pretty much Everquest for Morons. Fortunately for Blizzard, and unfortunately for the rest of us, morons are a huge market, so Blizzard lit a rocket under their ass and took a trip straight to the financial ionosphere. Now, even the intelligent people that don't even like the game any more still feel like they have too much time invested to quit.

Nothing but WoW will kill WoW. It really looked like it was heading that way until the Cataclysm info came out - now, we'll have to see. I've still got my fingers crossed that the great, rotting behemoth will fall straight through the ground and into hell where it belongs, but I doubt it'll happen.
I always like when people complain that wow "ruined" MMOs by making them "easy enough for any moron".

Nevermind that most of the "dumbing down" was actually fixing broken things in the genre. Almost everything you'd name as ruining the genre would actually be considered a great design choice by the majority of developers.
Nowhere did I mention the phrase "dumbing down" and I did not say that WoW ruined anything except itself.

The game was made much more accessible to people new to the game itself and especially to the genre. Many of the measures taken to do that were not bad game design choices, nor were they bad choices from a business standpoint. The second is where my problem comes in. In the provess of making the game accessible to new players, Blizzard trampled all over the veteran players. In effect, the game because so accessible and so friendly to soloing that the large influx of new players was hitting max level without ever actually learning how to function in the game. You may call a solo-unfriendly mentality a "bad" design choice, but the entire reason to play an MMO over a single-player game is interaction between players, and if the game itself isn't effectively teaching its players how to play it by putting them in learning situations, the game has failed. The experience has failed. This may be the nihilist in me talking, but players should be punished mercilessly for sucking at a game, so that they either get better, or give up and go somewhere else. I shouldn't have to suffer through taking half a dozen new warlocks on trial runs before I find one who even has the brain capacity necessary to understand the concept of not standing in a fucking fire.

But, making money became the main goal, and punishment for not being able to play the game would drive people to quit, because there are a lot more bad-to-mediocre players than there are veteran raiders and PvPers. Please don't think I'm saying Blizzard shouldn't have wanted to make money - they're a business, it's their job. But not at the expense of the soul of the game.

The comments I made about the industry are spot on, however. WoW is too successful for any company to get a foothold, even ones that have been trying new things. There's just too many players that have been playing for far too long - it took my guild dissolving and most of my friends quitting for me to not care about the game enough to quit. And that's how it is with a lot of people. Even if a new and innovative game comes along, it still fails, because people have hundreds and thousands of hours in their WoW characters, whole groups of friends that probably aren't interested in switching games, etc. It would be great if the game could exist in a vacuum, where the people that enjoy it could enjoy it and other games could do their own thing somewhere else, with their own playerbase, but it just can't happen. Not until WoW loses a great deal of its popularity.

If none of that makes sense, I'm on Vicodin.
 

IbanezLaney

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They need to look at the term MMO. Too many games that call themselves that are not MMO's.

The only true MMO I know of is Eve. Everyone is on the same server in the same world at the same time.

Wow is really not an mmo. Its thousands's of servers with .0001% of the population on each one - it's just like a bunch of counter strike servers. Using Wow logic - Valve could call TF2 an MMO.

But I admit - wow's popularity can not be denied.

It always gonna be the housewives favorite because it's easy and has no real consequence for failure.
I tried wow once but playing with fairies and midgets just isn't my thing.


Here is a link to my favorite wow pvp video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=911DH60MU6g
 

tyriless

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Here here.I was surprised that anyone still cared enough to make a WoW-ruined-my-Everquest post. The game had its heyday and it made MMORPGs what they are today. But WoW took its formula and greatly improved upon it. It managed to even out do Everquest 2, effectively beating them at their own game. I know one day WoW will fizzle out, but right now the community is strong and growing and is gearing up for another two years of play which is a life time in the MMO sense.
 

LawlessSquirrel

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I really hate how much of a strangle-hold WoW has over MMO space, but I am a fan of the free2play model.

The problem is that people are more drawn to the community than the game, and since WoW has had one hell of a good start, it's hard for people to just jump ship. Of cause, then they're paying a subscription for the game, and that game demands a sizeable input of time...most people don't have the time or money to add another onto that list, or aren't willing to migrate away from their friends.

Hell, I dislike WoW nowadays because of the constant (IMO) downgrades to gameplay, but remain nostalgic about experiences with people I used to spend time with on there. That nostalgia is the only thing that draws me back, and then it only takes a day or two before I find the experience shallow without the old social element.

Eh, on the bright side, I may soon be able to play Champions again. I stopped because my friends stopped, and I didn't want to keep paying for it. But with a free2play model, I can get more people into it. Then I can play more with more people and have more fun, all for much cheaper. Everybody wins!
 
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Abedeus said:
One thing I disagree with - you don't get the same things for free. Less champion slots, archetypes (not powersets), adventure packs and no tech support, limited access to forums...
Does it really make that much of a difference though?

I'd suspsect it's nowhere near enough to balance unless they get some super prize from the FtP.

Like a Statue in one of the Zones.

traukanshaku said:
If none of that makes sense, I'm on Vicodin.
Nope, perfect sense. WoW is a genre strangler and it hangs on in there not just because it's a free ride to the Bahamas for Blizzard. They don't really have to innovate or do anything else because it's a machine that prints money.

Same as Farmville.

Why should they release their strangle-grip? It'd be like EA giving anyone else a chance in the sports market. And 95% of the players won't even care if you painted them a picture. They enjoy being in a safe market because they know it will never change. They'll always have their level 70 Uber-Warlock, and he'll always be useful.
 

Dana22

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Dun be silly, Swtor will be one of the greatest failures that ever happened.
 

Buizel91

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Personally i don't think TOR will beat WoW, (not for a few years anyway) but i think it will be it's biggest Rival. Bioware fans + Starwars + it's set in the old republic = one massive fanbase, i don't know one person who has Kotor, but isn't getting this, they all are, just like me.

I just hope it can make it's stand, it will be a day of joy i can tell ya.
 

VanityGirl

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SinisterGehe said:
And they say PvP is good in wow, I don't know about that I suck at it so I wont be able to give a statement of it...
I play on a PvP server, it is very fun. Once you get into Contested territory, it is open season. Very fun! Thankfully Blizz did balance some PvP issues, like Ret Pallys were freaking STUPID to fight in PvP, so now my hunter can win more often. :p

LawlessSquirrel said:
I really hate how much of a strangle-hold WoW has over MMO space, but I am a fan of the free2play model.

The problem is that people are more drawn to the community than the game, and since WoW has had one hell of a good start, it's hard for people to just jump ship. Of cause, then they're paying a subscription for the game, and that game demands a sizeable input of time...most people don't have the time or money to add another onto that list, or aren't willing to migrate away from their friends.

Hell, I dislike WoW nowadays because of the constant (IMO) downgrades to gameplay, but remain nostalgic about experiences with people I used to spend time with on there. That nostalgia is the only thing that draws me back, and then it only takes a day or two before I find the experience shallow without the old social element.
I respect your opinion, but I must say I disagree. I've heard a few people say they "downgraded" the gameplay, but I've only seen improvements. My hunter had a serious upgrade since the patch and I appreciate it since my hunter always seemed rather fail in comparison to some of the other classes.
IMO, I think many people are upset about the game because Blizz has actually been balancing it better.

And if someone devotes so much time to one game that they can't play another... then that's their problem. I like WoW, but I can only play so much in a day before I think "I want to play something else". I can easily play WoW and play other games in one day.
 

Dana22

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arc1991 said:
Dana22 said:
Dun be silly, Swtor will be one of the greatest failures that ever happened.
Prove your point.
http://furiousfanboys.com/2010/10/ea-developer-old-republic-will-be-one-of-the-greatest-failures-in-the-history-of-mmos/

:D

Of course I cant prove anything beyond a doubt, because this game is not out yet. But I had bad feelings about it since it was announced.
 

Buizel91

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Aug 25, 2008
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Dana22 said:
arc1991 said:
Dana22 said:
Dun be silly, Swtor will be one of the greatest failures that ever happened.
Prove your point.
http://furiousfanboys.com/2010/10/ea-developer-old-republic-will-be-one-of-the-greatest-failures-in-the-history-of-mmos/

:D

Of course I cant prove anything beyond a doubt, because this game is not out yet. But I had bad feelings about it since it was announced.
FuriousFanboys.com...

Yeh, that did it for me, I've read the article and somehow...i seriously doubt half the stuff mentioned. Simply because Bioware know better.

Don't let EA or anyone else tell you anything, if it don't come from Bioware or Lucas Arts (you know, the people making the thing?) then don't believe it...

Those are the rules i go by, same thing with news and stuff.
 

Reveras

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traukanshaku said:
JerrytheBullfrog said:
traukanshaku said:
The Madman said:
traukanshaku said:
This, nail on the head, QFT, etc.

WoW is pretty much Everquest for Morons. Fortunately for Blizzard, and unfortunately for the rest of us, morons are a huge market, so Blizzard lit a rocket under their ass and took a trip straight to the financial ionosphere. Now, even the intelligent people that don't even like the game any more still feel like they have too much time invested to quit.

Nothing but WoW will kill WoW. It really looked like it was heading that way until the Cataclysm info came out - now, we'll have to see. I've still got my fingers crossed that the great, rotting behemoth will fall straight through the ground and into hell where it belongs, but I doubt it'll happen.
It's funny because that's exactly what everyone said about Everquest when it came out:

'Everquest is pretty much Ultima Online for Morons. Fortunately for Sony, and unfortunately for the rest of us, morons are a huge market!'

Which is funny because before that, that's what everyone said about Ultima Online:

'Ultima Online is pretty much Neverwinter for Morons. Fortunately for Origin, and unfortunately for the rest of us, morons are a huge market!'

It's nice to see the proud tradition of bashing whatever happens to be most popular at the time continues. Brings a tear to these nostalgic eyes! March on proud soldier, march on!
It might have been an argument had I not been a 4-year WoW player.

I don't hate the game. Far from it. But I do hate what it's doing to the market; namely, strangling it and stifling innovation. Regardless of personal feeling about any MMO, innovation and evolution are two of the most important parts of any industry. A company that gets successful enough to rest on its laurels always deserves to be taken down, in the end.
Yeah a company that rests on its laurels as the market leader deserves to fall.

But how is taking a huge risk and completely remaking your original game world almost from scratch while taking huge revamps to your gameplay Blizzard "resting on its laurels"?
I did mention in my original post that I was curious as to whether or not Cataclysm would be the spark that the game needs to stay fresh. I admit my point might have been buried under quite a bit of vitriol, but as a long-time player that was extremely unhappy with all the changes to make the game more "accessible," it's hard for me to look at Blizzard with anything other than distaste at the moment. But, if I'd never liked the game in the first place, I would care as much what happens to it now.

So, it remains to be seen whether or not changes in Cataclysm will be a renaissance or a disappointment. Given their track record of incessant pandering to the lowest common denominator of the playerbase, though, I'm not expecting much.
Hi, I'm a cata tester, read this: RAIDS ARE FUCKING HARD. Something that couldn't be said since TBC or at the latest Ulduar.
 

boholikeu

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ionveau said:
Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers
Honestly, most of the above complaints can be leveled at other MMOs as well, especially those that came out before WoW. Progression (whether through skills or gear) is a part of every RPG, and WoW probably has one of the least time-intensive progression grinds of any MMO.

World PvP is still very much alive even with flying mounts. The only thing flying mounts ruined was ganking, which most would argue is a good thing.

I agree with you about the outdoor bosses though.

traukanshaku said:
Nowhere did I mention the phrase "dumbing down" and I did not say that WoW ruined anything except itself.
Fair enough. That sentence was more directed at the other guy, but I'll keep that in mind.

traukanshaku said:
The game was made much more accessible to people new to the game itself and especially to the genre. Many of the measures taken to do that were not bad game design choices, nor were they bad choices from a business standpoint. The second is where my problem comes in. In the provess of making the game accessible to new players, Blizzard trampled all over the veteran players. In effect, the game because so accessible and so friendly to soloing that the large influx of new players was hitting max level without ever actually learning how to function in the game. You may call a solo-unfriendly mentality a "bad" design choice, but the entire reason to play an MMO over a single-player game is interaction between players, and if the game itself isn't effectively teaching its players how to play it by putting them in learning situations, the game has failed. The experience has failed. This may be the nihilist in me talking, but players should be punished mercilessly for sucking at a game, so that they either get better, or give up and go somewhere else. I shouldn't have to suffer through taking half a dozen new warlocks on trial runs before I find one who even has the brain capacity necessary to understand the concept of not standing in a fucking fire.
Actually, not much has changed in that regard since vanilla. Most people back then didn't know how to play their class either until they started raiding. The difference was that guilds would actually take the time to help teach people the skills they needed for bigger fights. Now people won't even take your applications unless you already have xx gearscore and know all the fights already. What's the point of a guild then?

traukanshaku said:
But, making money became the main goal, and punishment for not being able to play the game would drive people to quit, because there are a lot more bad-to-mediocre players than there are veteran raiders and PvPers. Please don't think I'm saying Blizzard shouldn't have wanted to make money - they're a business, it's their job. But not at the expense of the soul of the game.
Could you name some specific changes that were at the "expense of the soul of the game", cause from where I'm standing WoW was always advertised as being much more accessible than other MMOs out at the time.
 

SinisterGehe

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VanityGirl said:
SinisterGehe said:
And they say PvP is good in wow, I don't know about that I suck at it so I wont be able to give a statement of it...
I play on a PvP server, it is very fun. Once you get into Contested territory, it is open season. Very fun! Thankfully Blizz did balance some PvP issues, like Ret Pallys were freaking STUPID to fight in PvP, so now my hunter can win more often. :p
I play on PvP server but I avoid PvP action,. But getting 28k Starsurge (after buble mitigation) Is retarted. Or getting stunlocked after using human racial for 20 seconds and after that get stunned again and killed. And Horde/alliance balance in ym server is hopeless ~ 1 Alliance = 5,6 hordes. I don't remember when was the last time I didn't have tenacity of 16 or when I last time won WG.
 

Jeronus

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When WoW goes free to play, the whole MMO market is going to be fucked. If WoW goes F2P, it will literally go from sucking the air out of the room to devouring the entire planet in one fell swoop. Seriously, who is going to play anything else when WoW becomes free? Runescape will literally be populated who don't have the space or hardware to run WoW.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Hmmm, well I think this is mostly propaganda.

The reason why they want to go with a Free To Play model is simply because it's an easier way to make more money. Typically the "ala carte" system means that a player who wants the full experience is probably going to wind up paying more than the standard $15 a month subscription fee. What's more it gives people with money a distinctive advantage encouraging people to pay money to succeed at the game, and also removing the need to police gold farmers and power leveling services and the like because the company itself is effectively going to be offering those services.

I also think it's a long term strategy that Bobby Kotick would be proud of (which is why it surprises me Blizzard hasn't done the same thing yet). Simply put if they get MMO gamers used to paying for things individually this means each addition to the game is going to make them money if people pay for it. One of the things that has kept WoW on top despite it's age is the free content offered by Blizzard, pretty much every month there is some kind of special event or holiday, with more added each year as the cycle moves around (or so it seems). This is content that is added for free to keep people playing and paying their subscription. New dungeons have also been added to the game, starting with things like "Dire Maul" back in the day. The so called "Free to Play" format means that all of these things will of course cost money to access. What's more some of these plans seem to be combined with what amounts to subscription fees, as it seems that part of the idea is to offer "premium memberships" to access content, or people to constantly pay for passes to access endgame content and dungeons, meaning that hardcore players are going to wind up paying every month anyway, in addition for added content as it's release, and any items and materials that they need to effectively keep up with the game competitively.

I think the subscription model is fine, it's just that since there is more money to be made through FTP, especially if it becomes established in the long run, that this is what the increasingly corperate game industry wants.

When it comes to not competing with World Of Warcraft, the problem is that game producers are not willing to spend what it takes to compete in an industry where the bar has been raised. Most MMO producers simply do not seem to "get" that they are not competing with World Of Warcraft when it first launched, but the juggernaut it's become with those free updates, expansion packs, and similar things. To compete with World Of Warcraft a game needs to launch with a similar amount of content to what WoW has now, combined with new technology, and preferably innovations that the game currently does not possess.

Back when "Age Of Conan" launched people thought it could compete with WoW, and had it actually implemented all of the things it was advertising to begin with, it probably would have. In reality when the game launched it was a mere shadow of what was promised, which is of course why it failed.

Please note that I am pointing fingers at the producers because they are the ones who decide how much money to put out, and how much time to give the Dev team. The reason why "Old Republic Online" might be able to compete with WoW is simply because it has the time and money invested in it that such competition is going to require. It might still fail, but it has a chance. I myself have been concerned about both a lack of depth, and a substantial imbalance between the good and evil factions which is something that has plagued every factional MMO from nearly the beginning.