World of Warcraft Sets the Standard for Pay MMOs, Says Champions Online Dev

[ionveau]

Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers

Honestly, most of the above complaints can be leveled at other MMOs as well, especially those that came out before WoW. Progression (whether through skills or gear) is a part of every RPG, and WoW probably has one of the least time-intensive progression grinds of any MMO.

World PvP is still very much alive even with flying mounts. The only thing flying mounts ruined was ganking, which most would argue is a good thing.

I agree with you about the outdoor bosses though.

If anything you grind more in wow have you seen the cheepo china mmos you grind for a year for gear then you have the best gear in the game, in wow they give you more gear to grind i leave for 3 months oh look my gear is useless

 

[boholikeu]

Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers

Honestly, most of the above complaints can be leveled at other MMOs as well, especially those that came out before WoW. Progression (whether through skills or gear) is a part of every RPG, and WoW probably has one of the least time-intensive progression grinds of any MMO.

World PvP is still very much alive even with flying mounts. The only thing flying mounts ruined was ganking, which most would argue is a good thing.

I agree with you about the outdoor bosses though.

If anything you grind more in wow have you seen the cheepo china mmos you grind for a year for gear then you have the best gear in the game, in wow they give you more gear to grind i leave for 3 months oh look my gear is useless

Um, that's the same of any MMO with constant updates. Are you saying the cheapo Chinese MMOs are better because they don't update their endgame?

 

[tyriless]

Interesting issue to be addressed. I play on Feathermoon and wonder how the game experience changes from server to server. Fortunately, I do get to play with a geographically broad group of gamers. I live on the West Coast of the United States and I play with a lot of East Coasters when I log on in the morning and afternoon. If I log on in the evening I often play with Australians. I swear, I once gamed with a guy that sounded like Yahtzee. Was it him? It's likely not. It was a raid and Yahtzee swears that level of cooperative play. However, he did ramble on in a British accent with hardly any punctuation and was very funny.

My point is the servers are very well varied in the clients they serve. I get the feeling that I meet numerous people with not only different regional backgrounds but different cultural. I do not know what the population numbers of the servers are, at any one time, but I wonder how one server of WoW compares to the one server of Eve in raw numbers. We are talking about 12 million players vs what, 120,000?

Statistics aside, I have to also argue that WoW, first and foremost, is a game built around cooperation. Unlike Eve, the primary focus of the game is team based players vs. content. The premium content of WoW cannot be garnered without being in a raiding guild and have formed social structures. Want to fight the final boss of each expansion, you have to have be part of tight nit community to do it. Most guilds are built with the sole purpose of working as a union to attain this content.

Eve, on the other hands, has a strong promotion of an individual pioneering spirit. You got your ship and you can do whatever you want with it. Yes, there is NPC content, but there a very strong player vs. player element. Far stronger than in most MMORPGs. In WoW, the pvp experience is strictly optional, while in Eve, it can never be truly avoided. Even if you keep to safe areas of the game, the cooperation you join may eventually be target by another thus putting you in the line of sights of another player. Don't get me wrong, this does sound interesting, but at the end of the day I rather not have all my hard work undone by some devious opponent.

 

[ionveau]

Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers

Honestly, most of the above complaints can be leveled at other MMOs as well, especially those that came out before WoW. Progression (whether through skills or gear) is a part of every RPG, and WoW probably has one of the least time-intensive progression grinds of any MMO.

World PvP is still very much alive even with flying mounts. The only thing flying mounts ruined was ganking, which most would argue is a good thing.

I agree with you about the outdoor bosses though.

If anything you grind more in wow have you seen the cheepo china mmos you grind for a year for gear then you have the best gear in the game, in wow they give you more gear to grind i leave for 3 months oh look my gear is useless

Um, that's the same of any MMO with constant updates. Are you saying the cheapo Chinese MMOs are better because they don't update their endgame?

let m explain cheapo MMO has the BIG BAD RAID then they add content for lower levels then add more content for low levels then more then more, you dont need to always have content updates for better gear thats what WoW brain washed you into thinking

 

[boholikeu]

let m explain cheapo MMO has the BIG BAD RAID then they add content for lower levels then add more content for low levels then more then more, you dont need to always have content updates for better gear thats what WoW brain washed you into thinking

Erm, you do realize that WoW adds content for lower levels as well, don't you? Heck, that's one of the main pushes of the new expansion.

If you personally like cheapo MMOs better that's fine, but I think you'll have a hard time arguing that they are actually designed better than WoW.

 

[Red Albatross]

Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers

Honestly, most of the above complaints can be leveled at other MMOs as well, especially those that came out before WoW. Progression (whether through skills or gear) is a part of every RPG, and WoW probably has one of the least time-intensive progression grinds of any MMO.

World PvP is still very much alive even with flying mounts. The only thing flying mounts ruined was ganking, which most would argue is a good thing.

I agree with you about the outdoor bosses though.

Nowhere did I mention the phrase "dumbing down" and I did not say that WoW ruined anything except itself.

Fair enough. That sentence was more directed at the other guy, but I'll keep that in mind.

The game was made much more accessible to people new to the game itself and especially to the genre. Many of the measures taken to do that were not bad game design choices, nor were they bad choices from a business standpoint. The second is where my problem comes in. In the provess of making the game accessible to new players, Blizzard trampled all over the veteran players. In effect, the game because so accessible and so friendly to soloing that the large influx of new players was hitting max level without ever actually learning how to function in the game. You may call a solo-unfriendly mentality a "bad" design choice, but the entire reason to play an MMO over a single-player game is interaction between players, and if the game itself isn't effectively teaching its players how to play it by putting them in learning situations, the game has failed. The experience has failed. This may be the nihilist in me talking, but players should be punished mercilessly for sucking at a game, so that they either get better, or give up and go somewhere else. I shouldn't have to suffer through taking half a dozen new warlocks on trial runs before I find one who even has the brain capacity necessary to understand the concept of not standing in a fucking fire.

Actually, not much has changed in that regard since vanilla. Most people back then didn't know how to play their class either until they started raiding. The difference was that guilds would actually take the time to help teach people the skills they needed for bigger fights. Now people won't even take your applications unless you already have xx gearscore and know all the fights already. What's the point of a guild then?

But, making money became the main goal, and punishment for not being able to play the game would drive people to quit, because there are a lot more bad-to-mediocre players than there are veteran raiders and PvPers. Please don't think I'm saying Blizzard shouldn't have wanted to make money - they're a business, it's their job. But not at the expense of the soul of the game.

Could you name some specific changes that were at the "expense of the soul of the game", cause from where I'm standing WoW was always advertised as being much more accessible than other MMOs out at the time.

The fact that guilds and the endgame are now full of people that think gearscore even matters kinda reinforces my point about the playerbase slowly eroding into a horrible amorphous blob of stupid with no common sense or critical thinking skills (that's pretty much true for the rest of the world, too). Evaluating new applicants by merit of their skill would actually require effort. Speaking from the position of a former class officer in my guild who was responsible for evaluating and training, it really doesn't take that long to gauge basic competency. This may be the elitist RPer in me talking, but someone who talks like they were kidnapped by aliens and had their brains replaced with a cellphone that can only send text messages probably isn't going to be any better at raiding than they are at communicating. I'm not saying that only stupid people play the game, but ever since WoWs popularity exploded and the game got flooded, the decent people become more and more insular. It's especially noticeable on RP servers, where role-playing is forced to be some kind of super-secret and vaguely creepy Freemasonry type deal where no one discusses or practices it in the open, because of the inevitability of what we like to call "Goldshire" people run up and either try to initiate cyber or simply drop the word "fag" repeatedly.

It's really quite a shame, because back in vanilla, I remember my entire server being a helpful and generally intelligent place, exactly like you said. Some of my best in-game friends were other warlocks that I'd either asked questions of had ask me questions about mechanics and rotations and whatnot. I'd also say that the 40-man dynamic made raids a little less about personal responsibility and more about working coherently as a team, which I think was a good thing. The quality of fights like Razorgore and Vael remain completely unmatched in anything through either expansion. Note that I'm not saying they were the hardest - they weren't - but the group dynamic was great.

 

[Tyzamar]

WoW = The metal
Nothing can beat the metal.

 

[ionveau]

let m explain cheapo MMO has the BIG BAD RAID then they add content for lower levels then add more content for low levels then more then more, you dont need to always have content updates for better gear thats what WoW brain washed you into thinking

Erm, you do realize that WoW adds content for lower levels as well, don't you? Heck, that's one of the main pushes of the new expansion.

If you personally like cheapo MMOs better that's fine, but I think you'll have a hard time arguing that they are actually designed better than WoW.

im sorry i dont feel that adding fire everywhere is adding content, on the other hand they DID make the old world just like northrand and outland soo good job to them no more thinking just take all the quests at the quest hub and complete.

Unless you leveled from 1-80 on the test realm dont talk to me about how they add things for low levels, the truth is they just organized the leveling path nothing more nothing less

 

[boholikeu]

Ya.... so they have a loot color system whats the point everyone has epics anyway
They force you to grind heroics all day to get raid gear..i would rather be raiding DUDE!!!
I feel like every expansion is an excuse to make me fork over 50$ to keep doing what i was doing before except instead of doing it for level 80 i do it for 85 gear how new and fun

Whats that no more outdoor bosses? that made the game deep too bad
Whats that no more outdoor PvP thanks to flying mounts too bad

Remember when you could do raids then go PvP nop now you only PvP or PvE unless you play 9 hours a day everyday witch is what you should be doing seeing as you can get weapons though PvE only

i quit wrath half way though after noticing the set path and boring items they had every item was just a buff of the old

and the set path they had first you do heroics for your gear then grind the badges then get your hit rating up, just saying boring game play all you do is add up numbers

Honestly, most of the above complaints can be leveled at other MMOs as well, especially those that came out before WoW. Progression (whether through skills or gear) is a part of every RPG, and WoW probably has one of the least time-intensive progression grinds of any MMO.

World PvP is still very much alive even with flying mounts. The only thing flying mounts ruined was ganking, which most would argue is a good thing.

I agree with you about the outdoor bosses though.

Nowhere did I mention the phrase "dumbing down" and I did not say that WoW ruined anything except itself.

Fair enough. That sentence was more directed at the other guy, but I'll keep that in mind.

The game was made much more accessible to people new to the game itself and especially to the genre. Many of the measures taken to do that were not bad game design choices, nor were they bad choices from a business standpoint. The second is where my problem comes in. In the provess of making the game accessible to new players, Blizzard trampled all over the veteran players. In effect, the game because so accessible and so friendly to soloing that the large influx of new players was hitting max level without ever actually learning how to function in the game. You may call a solo-unfriendly mentality a "bad" design choice, but the entire reason to play an MMO over a single-player game is interaction between players, and if the game itself isn't effectively teaching its players how to play it by putting them in learning situations, the game has failed. The experience has failed. This may be the nihilist in me talking, but players should be punished mercilessly for sucking at a game, so that they either get better, or give up and go somewhere else. I shouldn't have to suffer through taking half a dozen new warlocks on trial runs before I find one who even has the brain capacity necessary to understand the concept of not standing in a fucking fire.

Actually, not much has changed in that regard since vanilla. Most people back then didn't know how to play their class either until they started raiding. The difference was that guilds would actually take the time to help teach people the skills they needed for bigger fights. Now people won't even take your applications unless you already have xx gearscore and know all the fights already. What's the point of a guild then?

But, making money became the main goal, and punishment for not being able to play the game would drive people to quit, because there are a lot more bad-to-mediocre players than there are veteran raiders and PvPers. Please don't think I'm saying Blizzard shouldn't have wanted to make money - they're a business, it's their job. But not at the expense of the soul of the game.

Could you name some specific changes that were at the "expense of the soul of the game", cause from where I'm standing WoW was always advertised as being much more accessible than other MMOs out at the time.

The fact that guilds and the endgame are now full of people that think gearscore even matters kinda reinforces my point about the playerbase slowly eroding into a horrible amorphous blob of stupid with no common sense or critical thinking skills (that's pretty much true for the rest of the world, too). Evaluating new applicants by merit of their skill would actually require effort. Speaking from the position of a former class officer in my guild who was responsible for evaluating and training, it really doesn't take that long to gauge basic competency. This may be the elitist RPer in me talking, but someone who talks like they were kidnapped by aliens and had their brains replaced with a cellphone that can only send text messages probably isn't going to be any better at raiding than they are at communicating. I'm not saying that only stupid people play the game, but ever since WoWs popularity exploded and the game got flooded, the decent people become more and more insular. It's especially noticeable on RP servers, where role-playing is forced to be some kind of super-secret and vaguely creepy Freemasonry type deal where no one discusses or practices it in the open, because of the inevitability of what we like to call "Goldshire" people run up and either try to initiate cyber or simply drop the word "fag" repeatedly.

It's really quite a shame, because back in vanilla, I remember my entire server being a helpful and generally intelligent place, exactly like you said. Some of my best in-game friends were other warlocks that I'd either asked questions of had ask me questions about mechanics and rotations and whatnot. I'd also say that the 40-man dynamic made raids a little less about personal responsibility and more about working coherently as a team, which I think was a good thing. The quality of fights like Razorgore and Vael remain completely unmatched in anything through either expansion. Note that I'm not saying they were the hardest - they weren't - but the group dynamic was great.

Good points, and I especially agree with you that the decent people are more and more insular, but that's more of a problem of the game's population that it is a design problem. Sure, the game could be less accessible in an effort to "weed out" the undesirables, but it would also be a worse game in the process. As it is now, assuming you have a group of "decent" people to play the game with, the game is much more fun than it was back in vanilla simply because there are less counter-intuitive, grindy mechanics that you have to deal with.

For the record, I play on a very old PVP server, and so we are probably one of the worst ones there is when it comes to a-holes and spamming morons. However, I was still able to find a good (read: drama and idiot free) guild with very little trouble. The community may be the worst part of WoW right now, but the game itself is better than ever and still enjoyable once you find the right crowd to play it with (which is true of any MMO).

Also, I have to disagree with you about the 40 man dynamic. The difficulty in getting 40 people online and ready to go at the same time far outweighs any nostalgia I have for the feel of those larger fights. Smaller groups also make it easier for you to find an entire raid of mature, thinking individuals, so I can honestly say there is less drama in my current raids than in any of the 40 mans I used to run.

 

[SliferDemon]

I love that people are calling AION a grind now even after the new expansion where it's so easy to lvl now, I haven't ever run out of quest to do. Is it the greatest game alive, no, but neither is WoW who screws their own storyline to make a quick buck.

 

[boholikeu]

im sorry i dont feel that adding fire everywhere is adding content, on the other hand they DID make the old world just like northrand and outland soo good job to them no more thinking just take all the quests at the quest hub and complete.

Unless you leveled from 1-80 on the test realm dont talk to me about how they add things for low levels, the truth is they just organized the leveling path nothing more nothing less

They also added/reworked around 2500 quests in the old world, including implementing new quest mechanics to the old areas like phasing, mount quests, etc. Don't really see how you could've leveled 1-80 on the test realm and missed that.

Also, I like how you mention the re-organization of quest hubs like a bad thing. Tell me, what is the advantage of having random quests that take you halfway across the world to kill a few boars and return? This is just another example of someone complaining about "dumbing down" the game when it's really just better design.

 

[Red Albatross]

Good points, and I especially agree with you that the decent people are more and more insular, but that's more of a problem of the game's population that it is a design problem. Sure, the game could be less accessible in an effort to "weed out" the undesirables, but it would also be a worse game in the process. As it is now, assuming you have a group of "decent" people to play the game with, the game is much more fun than it was back in vanilla simply because there are less counter-intuitive, grindy mechanics that you have to deal with.

For the record, I play on a very old PVP server, and so we are probably one of the worst ones there is when it comes to a-holes and spamming morons. However, I was still able to find a good (read: drama and idiot free) guild with very little trouble. The community may be the worst part of WoW right now, but the game itself is better than ever and still enjoyable once you find the right crowd to play it with (which is true of any MMO).

Also, I have to disagree with you about the 40 man dynamic. The difficulty in getting 40 people online and ready to go at the same time far outweighs any nostalgia I have for the feel of those larger fights. Smaller groups also make it easier for you to find an entire raid of mature, thinking individuals, so I can honestly say there is less drama in my current raids than in any of the 40 mans I used to run.

I freely admit to being spoiled in vanilla, because I had a fantastic guild that fielded 40-mans and still felt like a small community. I'm not saying I liked the 40-man raiding better, just that the switch to 25-man was part of a larger, sweeping shift in focus from the group dynamic to the individual dynamic. Many of the changes were good ideas in and of themselves, and made the game itself better, but also had the side effect of eliminating the need to interact and mesh well with other players to really succeed in the game. This is what I meant about the game feeling, to me, like it lost a lot of the soul that it had.

I can't argue that the ultimate problem is with the playerbase itself - but at the same time, I feel like the game still fosters an environment of selfishness. Morons, idiots, assholes, and douchenozzles of all calibers are like mold - mold grows in damp environments, and if it gets in your house, it may not necessarily be your fault, but it's your responsibility to correct the problem before everyone inside the house suffers. And it's Blizzard's responsibility to take measures to correct the "problem" of the playerbase, but they won't do it because it would mean losing some subscribers, nevermind the fact that it would make the remaining ones a lot happier and may draw back some old ones who quit because of the aforementioned scum of the game ruining the experience.

 

[Sixcess]

A very good point. This developer saying WoW set the bar high is pretty much a joke in itself when he helped in making a game that set the bar so low. Champions Online is a joke compared to City of Heroes, let alone WoW. I doubt there will ever be a Superhero MMORPG that will ever measure up to City of Heroes, execpt maybe City of Heroes 2 if they manage to remember why there original was so good.

Agreed. CoH is the WoW of Superhero MMOs, albeit on a smaller scale - it may not be as flashy as its newer competitors, but it has the depth of years of continued development behind it - something that new MMOs just can't rival - as well as an actually balanced powers and combat system and a very loyal core subscriber base who won't quickly jump ship to the next new shiny that comes along. CO couldn't compete, and I doubt DCUO will prove any more of a threat.

 

[VanityGirl]

And they say PvP is good in wow, I don't know about that I suck at it so I wont be able to give a statement of it...

I play on a PvP server, it is very fun. Once you get into Contested territory, it is open season. Very fun! Thankfully Blizz did balance some PvP issues, like Ret Pallys were freaking STUPID to fight in PvP, so now my hunter can win more often.

I play on PvP server but I avoid PvP action,. But getting 28k Starsurge (after buble mitigation) Is retarted. Or getting stunlocked after using human racial for 20 seconds and after that get stunned again and killed. And Horde/alliance balance in ym server is hopeless ~ 1 Alliance = 5,6 hordes. I don't remember when was the last time I didn't have tenacity of 16 or when I last time won WG.

You don't play on the Deathwing server by any chance do you? We seem to have the imbalance of horde and alliance on Deathwing.
We (alliance) used to lose on WG all the time, but lately we've been doing better. I've actually won it 3 times in the past 4 days. Proably not great, but I'll take any win over no wins at all. XD

 

[boholikeu]

Good points, and I especially agree with you that the decent people are more and more insular, but that's more of a problem of the game's population that it is a design problem. Sure, the game could be less accessible in an effort to "weed out" the undesirables, but it would also be a worse game in the process. As it is now, assuming you have a group of "decent" people to play the game with, the game is much more fun than it was back in vanilla simply because there are less counter-intuitive, grindy mechanics that you have to deal with.

For the record, I play on a very old PVP server, and so we are probably one of the worst ones there is when it comes to a-holes and spamming morons. However, I was still able to find a good (read: drama and idiot free) guild with very little trouble. The community may be the worst part of WoW right now, but the game itself is better than ever and still enjoyable once you find the right crowd to play it with (which is true of any MMO).

Also, I have to disagree with you about the 40 man dynamic. The difficulty in getting 40 people online and ready to go at the same time far outweighs any nostalgia I have for the feel of those larger fights. Smaller groups also make it easier for you to find an entire raid of mature, thinking individuals, so I can honestly say there is less drama in my current raids than in any of the 40 mans I used to run.

I freely admit to being spoiled in vanilla, because I had a fantastic guild that fielded 40-mans and still felt like a small community. I'm not saying I liked the 40-man raiding better, just that the switch to 25-man was part of a larger, sweeping shift in focus from the group dynamic to the individual dynamic. Many of the changes were good ideas in and of themselves, and made the game itself better, but also had the side effect of eliminating the need to interact and mesh well with other players to really succeed in the game. This is what I meant about the game feeling, to me, like it lost a lot of the soul that it had.

I can't argue that the ultimate problem is with the playerbase itself - but at the same time, I feel like the game still fosters an environment of selfishness. Morons, idiots, assholes, and douchenozzles of all calibers are like mold - mold grows in damp environments, and if it gets in your house, it may not necessarily be your fault, but it's your responsibility to correct the problem before everyone inside the house suffers. And it's Blizzard's responsibility to take measures to correct the "problem" of the playerbase, but they won't do it because it would mean losing some subscribers, nevermind the fact that it would make the remaining ones a lot happier and may draw back some old ones who quit because of the aforementioned scum of the game ruining the experience.

Again good points, but I don't know what Blizzard can do to fix the problem design-wise. I still don't think making the game less accessible is the answer.

There have been a few changes that seemed aimed at curbing selfishness, though. About half of the armor you get now is through points rather than drops, so that helps keep raid drama down a bit. Holiday items are now dropped in individual bags for each person rather than looted from the NPC, so you can't ninja them anymore, and the next expansion is putting a bigger emphasis on doing things together with your guild by rewarding players who do so regularly.

 

[SinisterGehe]

And they say PvP is good in wow, I don't know about that I suck at it so I wont be able to give a statement of it...

I play on a PvP server, it is very fun. Once you get into Contested territory, it is open season. Very fun! Thankfully Blizz did balance some PvP issues, like Ret Pallys were freaking STUPID to fight in PvP, so now my hunter can win more often.

I play on PvP server but I avoid PvP action,. But getting 28k Starsurge (after buble mitigation) Is retarted. Or getting stunlocked after using human racial for 20 seconds and after that get stunned again and killed. And Horde/alliance balance in ym server is hopeless ~ 1 Alliance = 5,6 hordes. I don't remember when was the last time I didn't have tenacity of 16 or when I last time won WG.

You don't play on the Deathwing server by any chance do you? We seem to have the imbalance of horde and alliance on Deathwing.
We (alliance) used to lose on WG all the time, but lately we've been doing better. I've actually won it 3 times in the past 4 days. Proably not great, but I'll take any win over no wins at all. XD

Nah I am on Lighting's Blade EU... Bettlegroup is Rampage, they keep adding more and more servers to it to fix the horde/alliance balance in BG's.