World's Finest
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
I'm going to go ahead and play devil's advocate here.
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns is, was when it came out, and always will be absolutely fucking terrible. Frank Miller can't write his way out of a shoebox and it's painfully apparent in that story in particular. It's infantile, nihilistic trash for teenagers who want to feel "hardcore". That's all it'll ever be, and pretty much nothing good can come of a movie taking hints from that, especially since Man of Steel completely missed the point of Superman as a character to begin with.
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns is, was when it came out, and always will be absolutely fucking terrible. Frank Miller can't write his way out of a shoebox and it's painfully apparent in that story in particular. It's infantile, nihilistic trash for teenagers who want to feel "hardcore". That's all it'll ever be, and pretty much nothing good can come of a movie taking hints from that, especially since Man of Steel completely missed the point of Superman as a character to begin with.
I'd love to see them set on a collision course with one another by circumstance and the machinations of a bad guy so that all this tension builds in the first act until they actually meet face to face for the expected Misunderstanding-Fight... which never happens. They instead size one another up, prove to be excellent judges of character and immediately team up to spend the last two thirds of the movie rooting out and kicking the ass of the bad guy.
--Morology!
--Morology!
Heh,Superman and clones of Hitler. I get the reference.
I think the assumption that they'll fight is because that's what happens in every superhero team up ever. The heroes meet, have some misunderstanding or miscommunication, wail on each other for a bit, get over it, start kicking the right asses. It was the whole second act of The Avengers. Can't really see them going to for something different with this, unless they go way out of left field and make their new Batman a campy Adam West copycat to either counter their grim and gritty Superman or just plain mess with us
I think the assumption that they'll fight is because that's what happens in every superhero team up ever. The heroes meet, have some misunderstanding or miscommunication, wail on each other for a bit, get over it, start kicking the right asses. It was the whole second act of The Avengers. Can't really see them going to for something different with this, unless they go way out of left field and make their new Batman a campy Adam West copycat to either counter their grim and gritty Superman or just plain mess with us
I'm really hoping that having Batman be the grim one acts as a way of bringing out Superman's good side in a way that Man of Steel failed to do. In the comics, Superman is often seen as the closest Batman has to a friend in the Justice League and I hope that the obligatory fight gets done early on to allow that friendship to develop. They really have a much deeper history as friends than anything else and given the vast difference in power, a drawn out fight will probably end up undermining one (or both) characters.
I really don't know what to think about something like this, for this will have all the problems that I am expecting out of a Justice League movie where they have a God-like character and a moral that is just smart and wealthy.
After the bad taste that Man of Steel left with me, I am pretty sure I will be avoiding this no matter what word of mouth has to say.
After the bad taste that Man of Steel left with me, I am pretty sure I will be avoiding this no matter what word of mouth has to say.
You know what? I hope they don't fight. At all. I know it's a losing bet, but I'm not interested in seeing 'the whole "who would win?" thing settled up onscreen,' and I don't think a fight between these two would be fun to watch. It only semi-worked in The Dark Knight Returns because Batman went to elaborate lengths to cheat (including calling in outside help) and then apparently died. Besides, they still don't have a Batman suit anyone can move in. Who wants to see another fight with the shit choreography all that stupid rubber forced on everyone?
I want to see a buddy cop movie with super heroes. Superman and Batman going all over the world to try and stop some ambiguous threat, Batman doing actual detective work (something that both movie and comic book writers seem to have completely forgotten the meaning of) and Superman flying in to lift and punch things when shit gets real. The closest I want them to get to fighting is trading jokes at each others' expense or arguing over what to do next. I don't even really need to see a scene where they first meet. I am perfectly happy to watch a movie that begins with Superman and Batman showing up together to stop a robbery or something.
I'm sorry, but the 'unrelentingly dark with a washed-out color palette' thing just doesn't work as the primary mode for telling superhero stories. It's great in small doses, when it's confined to a miniseries or a single film, but it gets dull real fast when it's more than that. What it comes down to is that these stories are inherently not only ridiculous, but fairly simplistic (yes, even everyone's precious Batman), and they can never be grim as well as Dostoevsky, or Lampedusa, or even Dick can be.
I want to see a buddy cop movie with super heroes. Superman and Batman going all over the world to try and stop some ambiguous threat, Batman doing actual detective work (something that both movie and comic book writers seem to have completely forgotten the meaning of) and Superman flying in to lift and punch things when shit gets real. The closest I want them to get to fighting is trading jokes at each others' expense or arguing over what to do next. I don't even really need to see a scene where they first meet. I am perfectly happy to watch a movie that begins with Superman and Batman showing up together to stop a robbery or something.
I'm sorry, but the 'unrelentingly dark with a washed-out color palette' thing just doesn't work as the primary mode for telling superhero stories. It's great in small doses, when it's confined to a miniseries or a single film, but it gets dull real fast when it's more than that. What it comes down to is that these stories are inherently not only ridiculous, but fairly simplistic (yes, even everyone's precious Batman), and they can never be grim as well as Dostoevsky, or Lampedusa, or even Dick can be.
The idea of superheroes fighting before they team up is as old as superheroes teaming up. That it's so readily accepted that they would do that may have nothing to do with Batman TDKR and may have to do with their part of comic book culture in the overall cultural zeitgeist. This is such a big deal both Marvel and DC have taken the piss out of it before. Marvel, at least, routinely.
Maybe he can team up with Crazy Steve.
that would be awesome, but the majority of movie-goers would be piiiiiiiiissed....Ace Morologist said:
Superman never met twin clones of Hitler. Bearded Idiot did.Pallindromemordnillap said:
Maybe he can team up with Crazy Steve.
If they're looking for it to be a lead-in to the JLA film and it's NOT going to feature them in constant conflict each other, then a name in the same vein as "Man of Steel" would perhaps be "Men of Justice".
MoS was pretty grim though, fairly sure a good few thousands more civilians must have died in Metropolis compared to NY in Avengers.
MoS was pretty grim though, fairly sure a good few thousands more civilians must have died in Metropolis compared to NY in Avengers.
Never going to happen, but the Superman/Batman team-up from the Man of Steel miniseries by Byrne would work really well for this.
Superman flying in to arrest Batman >> Bats tricking him into working together to catch the bad guy >> uneasy truce for most of the story >> fix everything >> budding friendship >> end credits
Superman flying in to arrest Batman >> Bats tricking him into working together to catch the bad guy >> uneasy truce for most of the story >> fix everything >> budding friendship >> end credits
I think it's good that WB cares what we fans think about how Superman, Batman, and everybody else are characterized, and not just about how much money they make from it. They care about their characters and want to do right by us fans, and I can't see Batman and Superman fighting all throughout the movie, but teaming up to fight someone worse, like Lex Luthor.
And the Avengers all being "second stringers"? Really? Even Captain America?
And the Avengers all being "second stringers"? Really? Even Captain America?
The only think that disappoints me more than the acceptance that MovieBob's draft of a script is guarantied to be the next movie, is the acceptance that Batman will be the unofficial winner of that match up. Sorry, but there is no way Nolan's Batman can beat Snyder's Superman. In the DKR comics he basically had to run a tank through him and join forces with Green Arrow to be able to fight him, in a universe were they haven't introduced kryptonite and magic (and likely never will, given Nolan's approach), Superman would mop the floor with the dark knight's face.
Compared to all of the major Justice League members, the rest of the Bat family, the Hulk, Spider-man, Wolverine, a handful of other X-men, and even the Fantastic Four, yeah even the Captain falls a bit short in terms of how prevalent in media and our collective pop-culture consciousness he is.Darth_Payn said:
Also, I hope DC throws a curve-ball and sets it up as a superhero buddy cop film. It would be glorious to see both of them working together from the beginning with a grudging respect, only to become best friends at the end.
How exactly do you get a two hour film out of THESE two franchises given what we saw in Man of Steel?!?
There has always been this sort of friendly argument amongst comic book fans over who would win in a fight between Bats and the Big Blue boy scout, but almost EVERY single scenario offered in which Batman could conceivably SURVIVE such an encounter (let alone actually WIN it) has been based on the premise of a.) the employment of kryptonite as a weapon and b.) Batman supposedly being willing to go to greater limits to defeat an opponent than Superman.
Scenario A doesn't seem viable since the Man of Steel mythos didn't seem to introduce kryptonite as a weakness, nor does Snyder seem inclined to go back on that as a convention.
Scenario B has never held much weight because Batman is as loathe to cross that "one special line" as Superman is, even when both characters probably share a great deal of responsibility for all the lives lost by NOT taking out final justice to end some of their more psychotic murdering villains.
In fact, Superman has only really crossed that line once in canon, when he slew Doomsday and that was only justified because he was going to die in the process, thus nobody would have been left to stop the creature if he had fallen.
Most of the other heroes were lucky to have escaped with their lives (some of them never really escaped to be honest.. it haunted them to the end of their days.)
I've also never really liked that argument that placed on equal terms Batman had the fighting advantage. Superman may have had super strength but he's still brawled with some of the best fighters in the UNIVERSE. At some point he learned how to stand toe to toe with someone when it comes to fisticuffs, and even minus his powers Clark is an imposing physical specimen of a man. Plus, to have to arbitrarily handicap Superman from the start just to win the argument is pretty much trying to give the win to Batman on easy mode. Oh gee well if Superman can't have his powers that define his character, then Batman doesn't get to have his gadgets or extensive training at the hands of Ninja masters and such. Fair is fair.
I digress.
The movie version of Superman from Man of Steel would flat out kill Batman before Bruce even knew he was coming. Hell, if they go with Nolan's Batman there won't even be much of a fight, since that stiff, slow ass Bat-suit was more a hindrance than anything else. Batman got his rump handed to him TWICE by Bane, who didn't even have his venom. He could barely hold his own against the Joker. In fact if you think about it, Batman pretty much SURVIVED the climax of his films rather than 'won' any of those particular engagements.
The best I can hope for is that they'll return to more comic book based writing in the next iteration of Batman.. lighten him up a little.. go more towards the Adam West end of things now. We've seen dark batman get darker and darker, let's make him more Brave and the Bold now.
Then we might actually have an interesting film.
There has always been this sort of friendly argument amongst comic book fans over who would win in a fight between Bats and the Big Blue boy scout, but almost EVERY single scenario offered in which Batman could conceivably SURVIVE such an encounter (let alone actually WIN it) has been based on the premise of a.) the employment of kryptonite as a weapon and b.) Batman supposedly being willing to go to greater limits to defeat an opponent than Superman.
Scenario A doesn't seem viable since the Man of Steel mythos didn't seem to introduce kryptonite as a weakness, nor does Snyder seem inclined to go back on that as a convention.
Scenario B has never held much weight because Batman is as loathe to cross that "one special line" as Superman is, even when both characters probably share a great deal of responsibility for all the lives lost by NOT taking out final justice to end some of their more psychotic murdering villains.
In fact, Superman has only really crossed that line once in canon, when he slew Doomsday and that was only justified because he was going to die in the process, thus nobody would have been left to stop the creature if he had fallen.
Most of the other heroes were lucky to have escaped with their lives (some of them never really escaped to be honest.. it haunted them to the end of their days.)
I've also never really liked that argument that placed on equal terms Batman had the fighting advantage. Superman may have had super strength but he's still brawled with some of the best fighters in the UNIVERSE. At some point he learned how to stand toe to toe with someone when it comes to fisticuffs, and even minus his powers Clark is an imposing physical specimen of a man. Plus, to have to arbitrarily handicap Superman from the start just to win the argument is pretty much trying to give the win to Batman on easy mode. Oh gee well if Superman can't have his powers that define his character, then Batman doesn't get to have his gadgets or extensive training at the hands of Ninja masters and such. Fair is fair.
I digress.
The movie version of Superman from Man of Steel would flat out kill Batman before Bruce even knew he was coming. Hell, if they go with Nolan's Batman there won't even be much of a fight, since that stiff, slow ass Bat-suit was more a hindrance than anything else. Batman got his rump handed to him TWICE by Bane, who didn't even have his venom. He could barely hold his own against the Joker. In fact if you think about it, Batman pretty much SURVIVED the climax of his films rather than 'won' any of those particular engagements.
The best I can hope for is that they'll return to more comic book based writing in the next iteration of Batman.. lighten him up a little.. go more towards the Adam West end of things now. We've seen dark batman get darker and darker, let's make him more Brave and the Bold now.
Then we might actually have an interesting film.
I agree with most of your sentiments, Bob. But here are some things to consider:
Along with the appeal of seeing the two guys fight, Frank Miller's work (and a lot of other works with story lines that focused on darker ideas and interpretations) have a lot in common with all the stuff we've seen Nolan do thus far. So the fact that such a connection is being made with this whole "versus" logic really does seem like the most logical conclusion for all of this. To suggest otherwise would be ignoring the obvious similarities.
That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of the two characters starting off not getting along (not enemies, but just not being buddy-buddy right away). World's Finest is probably the best example of that. They don't get along at first but neither are planning to destroy one another. Instead, they take time to learn about each other and figure out why they're both working at the same problem that both of them could (in their minds) do alone. This early friction allows the two to overcome that to help further characterize them and their differences. It also would help highlight WHY the two need to work together. For Bruce, it seems obvious that he would want the help of a god-like being when problems get too much for him to handle. But keeping in mind this is a "Man of Steel" movie and we just saw the previous one showing us how Superman really can handle just about anything and isn't afraid to kill if he has to, we need to see why a human in his bat pajamas is important enough for him to pal around with. I'm not sure HOW they plan to do that without going the obvious route of "Batman is smarter and better at strategy," but hopefully we'll be surprised with something else.
Along with the appeal of seeing the two guys fight, Frank Miller's work (and a lot of other works with story lines that focused on darker ideas and interpretations) have a lot in common with all the stuff we've seen Nolan do thus far. So the fact that such a connection is being made with this whole "versus" logic really does seem like the most logical conclusion for all of this. To suggest otherwise would be ignoring the obvious similarities.
That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of the two characters starting off not getting along (not enemies, but just not being buddy-buddy right away). World's Finest is probably the best example of that. They don't get along at first but neither are planning to destroy one another. Instead, they take time to learn about each other and figure out why they're both working at the same problem that both of them could (in their minds) do alone. This early friction allows the two to overcome that to help further characterize them and their differences. It also would help highlight WHY the two need to work together. For Bruce, it seems obvious that he would want the help of a god-like being when problems get too much for him to handle. But keeping in mind this is a "Man of Steel" movie and we just saw the previous one showing us how Superman really can handle just about anything and isn't afraid to kill if he has to, we need to see why a human in his bat pajamas is important enough for him to pal around with. I'm not sure HOW they plan to do that without going the obvious route of "Batman is smarter and better at strategy," but hopefully we'll be surprised with something else.