World's Finest

[crazy_madness]

You know what? I hope they don't fight. At all. I know it's a losing bet, but I'm not interested in seeing 'the whole "who would win?" thing settled up onscreen,' and I don't think a fight between these two would be fun to watch. It only semi-worked in The Dark Knight Returns because Batman went to elaborate lengths to cheat (including calling in outside help) and then apparently died. Besides, they still don't have a Batman suit anyone can move in. Who wants to see another fight with the shit choreography all that stupid rubber forced on everyone?

I want to see a buddy cop movie with super heroes. Superman and Batman going all over the world to try and stop some ambiguous threat, Batman doing actual detective work (something that both movie and comic book writers seem to have completely forgotten the meaning of) and Superman flying in to lift and punch things when shit gets real. The closest I want them to get to fighting is trading jokes at each others' expense or arguing over what to do next. I don't even really need to see a scene where they first meet. I am perfectly happy to watch a movie that begins with Superman and Batman showing up together to stop a robbery or something.

I'm sorry, but the 'unrelentingly dark with a washed-out color palette' thing just doesn't work as the primary mode for telling superhero stories. It's great in small doses, when it's confined to a miniseries or a single film, but it gets dull real fast when it's more than that. What it comes down to is that these stories are inherently not only ridiculous, but fairly simplistic (yes, even everyone's precious Batman), and they can never be grim as well as Dostoevsky, or Lampedusa, or even Dick can be.

total approval.

"I don't even really need to see a scene where they first meet."
YES!
in most of the cases in which we have seen a origin-story it wasn't crucial to the basic premise of the film.
-did we see how John McClane became a policeman in Die Hard? Did we see flashbacks of James Bond growing up? Did we see montage of Rambo learning how to use a gun?
not as far as i remember...

everything happening in a movie should be relevant. You don't watch a Superman movie to gain information about Superman do you?

 

[1337mokro]

You know if they would just muzzle Nolan and put him in a closet this might actually work.

Sure this was the Most Unnecessarily Dark Superman movie ever but that could be a lesson to learn from. Basically it was Superman's first outing. His first try at attempting to be the god among men he tries to avoid permanently becoming because he is Clark Kent before he is Superman. With Batman it is the exact opposite. Bruce Wayne is simply a method for Batman to continue being Batman.

So we can work with that. Have Superman move back gradually towards his arch-typical persona by learning from the events in Man of Steel. He was outmatched, outgunned and inexperienced. Use that to reshape him into the actual Man of Steel, the one that stands for truth, justice and the International way to ensure we don't alienate foreign fans and seeing as the American way has recently turned into crony capitalism and corruption across several layers of government becoming almost institutionalized as the only way into politics and EXHALE!

Damn the world has become a bleak place in reality.

Anyway like I was saying have Man of Steel NOT just be an origin. Have it become the formation of the character. Now you have two ideologies that clash. Superman wanting at all costs to prevent another Man of Steel debacle where he was forced to kill to protect civilians we never saw (hint show some civilians in this movie guys) and Batman who lacks the capacity to even start thinking about the criminals seeing as he is just a man with a utility belt and not the kind of man who would put saving lives over the lives of criminals (see animated universe where he tricks a guy into what amounts to suicide to save the world).

After all this IS going to be a new Batman, Nolan Batman is drinking wine in some South American country probably being about 60 by now, so have fun with the character. Create a younger more inexperienced Batman to contrast with the now more experienced Superman. Do something fresh and new and have Superman take the lead in this movie. Superman has been pushed to his limits early on in his theatrical story line. Have that impact him and have that be the central focus of the initial conflict between the two. It is after all supposed to be his movie sequel.

 

[crazy_madness]

Someone suggested somewhere (I can't remember where) that the movie should go like this:

Superman is called in to help deal with this mysterious vigilante problem that's turned up in Gotham City. When Supes does track this guy down, surprise surprise it's Batman, who is following a lead on some kind of criminal conspiracy. There's a scuffle, but Bats ninjas his way out of there after planting a seed of doubt in Supes' mind about his employers. Batman's explosive attack on whatever villain factory/hideout they go with naturally draws the attention of Superman, who realises he's been conned by whatever crooked cops/officials asked him to take out Batman, then the two team up for the final showdown with the big bad.

Post credits scene where it's revealed Lex was pulling the strings on the whole thing, and the whole "they won't best me again" thing, setting up Justice League.

i love such new originals!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.820297-Super-Dark?page=2#19814910

 

[McMarbles]

I'm going to go ahead and play devil's advocate here.

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns is, was when it came out, and always will be absolutely fucking terrible. Frank Miller can't write his way out of a shoebox and it's painfully apparent in that story in particular. It's infantile, nihilistic trash for teenagers who want to feel "hardcore". That's all it'll ever be, and pretty much nothing good can come of a movie taking hints from that, especially since Man of Steel completely missed the point of Superman as a character to begin with.

*slow clap*

I thought I was the only one who NEVER liked any of Miller's work. His writing is right-wing macho posturing and his art can't even touch Giffen, much less Kirby.

 

[Kahani]

You never know, it could be that in an interesting reversal, Batman comes in to teach a young and full of bluster Superman that even the smallest of crimes is worth his attention, not just the earth shattering stuff.

I thought this seemed the obvious conclusion. Before the Batman involvement was announced, most people seemed to be assuming the sequel would be about Superman adopting his normal moral code about helping everyone and not killing, using the killing of Zod as the catalyst. Now we're told that the film will include a guy who, as Bob says, often tackles regular criminals and also has a strict moral code about not killing. Of course there will be some conflict between the two, rather than simply having Batman play Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I don't see why this would change the basic plot at all.

 

[sid]

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but if I was Warner and I wanted to play it specially risky, I would make superman the villain in the upcoming movie. He's immortal, unstoppable, and all in all a monster truck who given the slightest motivation, could lift Australia and place it on the moon just for laughs EXCEPT for that one weakness he has. And now he's shown the willingness to kill, putting him in the perfect position for a fallen angel trope. Batman and Superman fighting for different ideologies? That's milking it. Batman overcoming Superman's clearly superior power with his wits and saving the world from the one guy who should be everyone's hero? That's something I'd watch.

Then again, if I was really in charge of DC, I'd start rolling out the B listers. Mashing terribly iconic characters together isn't the way to go, it just causes too much friction.

 

[Darmani]

I would vastly prefer a 'buddy cop' story, a little like Lethal Weapon, rather than a story where they are deliberate antagonists to each other.

There are very good reasons why Batman and Superman have become so iconic and important. Utilize them!

Fuck it, just take all the great stuff from the animated universe and roll with it. They don't always see eye to eye there- but they don't hate each other or even fight each other, at least not in the TDKR manner.

And you know what: Frank Miller's work does have some issues, not the least of them being how he turned Superman into a stooge; a crime that we are still paying for today, in some ways.

That doesn't mean it isn't a brilliant story: it is and it's well executed. But the fact that it's become THE BIBLE of Batman stories and it's impact on Superman, isn't a great thing.

This. superman is the ninny, the nancy, the square, to the hip too gritty to be kiddy batman and its stuck like stink to Superman for some time.