WoW: Cataclysm Part 3: Dungeons With Dragons

[oliveira8]

Still it's not 6 years that will force 10,000 years out of your head.

Weren't at least half of the Night Elf population asleep for that 10,000 years? For some of them maybe its a pretty easy bond to break.

Either way, there were night elves who were dicky enough to use magic in the first place, and renegades like Maiev prove that they can still be headstrong, arrogant and careless. Its entirely possible that mainstream 'conservative' (for want of a better word) Night Elves will still shun mage magic, but the angry quick tempered ones will take it up as soon as they see its destructive power.

The sleeping ones is even worst cause those would remenber everything that happened more fresh. Either way they were in the emerald dream and they could "feel" the earth. So no.

Again, I ask. In the interest of moving the world forward and not just remaining static, what is wrong with a section of the Night Elves deciding that this is a world where they cannot be afraid of these energies, but need them to fight the powers that have shattered Azeroth? With deciding that clinging to these old hatreds and taboos is just foolish?

Again? I need to explain this again?

10,000 years of seclusion believing that the evil comes from arcane magic, then all that time passed, they see that evil has returned because of the same magic and then one of the aspects of the world went bat-shit insane cause people have been using the same magic.

Shouldn't the best way to solve problems stop using that kind of magic? But no. They decide to go along, even when it only brings troubles. It's illogical. Even in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory would be out of touch with reality.

This reminds of the conflits in Tolkiens world. Where progression was seen as evil. Melkor/Sauron/Saruman every single one of them renounced the nature and tried to pursue a technological way. In the eyes of the elves, pursuing the way of the iron and the machine was evil.(hence why the dislike dwarves.)(And theres also that thing that Morgoth fused his evilness in the earth itself but im streamlining here...)
Industry was seen as a evil in Arda the same way as Magic is seen evil in Azeroth.

 

[Brett Alex]

It still is hard to swallow. In WC3 they didn't even care for the humans and orcs and would rather kill them and the Undead/Legion single handed before mingling with the mortals. Only a higher power made them cooperate.

Even if time passed it's still hard to swallow such change. If 100 passed it would have made more sense. There's also that think of orcs cutting through their woods...Yeah it's really hard to swallow all the crap Metzen is trying to makes us belief in the expansions that both sides need to help eachother, when half of the time they backstabbing each other.

In WC3 the then High Elves were a nation of incredibly powerful isolationists who didn't give a damn about the power of the holy light. That had already changed by the time Frozen Throne came round.

Hell, in WCI, Orcs were bloodthirsty always chaotic evil savages under the curse of bloodlust and stereotypical beserker type ruler in Blackhand. But by number II, in lore terms less than a year later, you had Doomhammer rising up and destroying the Shadow Council, utilizing ogres, goblins and trolls to expand the Orc armies, in general making the Orcish invasion less hulk smash and more strategic.

 

[oliveira8]

It still is hard to swallow. In WC3 they didn't even care for the humans and orcs and would rather kill them and the Undead/Legion single handed before mingling with the mortals. Only a higher power made them cooperate.

Even if time passed it's still hard to swallow such change. If 100 passed it would have made more sense. There's also that think of orcs cutting through their woods...Yeah it's really hard to swallow all the crap Metzen is trying to makes us belief in the expansions that both sides need to help eachother, when half of the time they backstabbing each other.

In WC3 the then High Elves were a nation of incredibly powerful isolationists who didn't give a damn about the power of the holy light. That had already changed by the time Frozen Throne came round.

Hell, in WCI, Orcs were bloodthirsty always chaotic evil savages under the curse of bloodlust and stereotypical beserker type ruler in Blackhand. But by number II, in lore terms less than a year later, you had Doomhammer rising up and destroying the Shadow Council, utilizing ogres, goblins and trolls to expand the Orc armies, in general making the Orcish invasion less hulk smash and more strategic.

Thats kinda different.(The WC1 example) The horde was taken by a different general, who had other ideas and plans.

The High Elves cared for the holy light. They even had this big ass wheel and everything. xP

And they were pretty friendly with the humans of Lordareon. So much they came to help them during the scourge and everything and teach them the arcane arts.

 

[Brett Alex]

Thats kinda different.(The WC1 example) The horde was taken by a different general, who had other ideas and plans.

The High Elves cared for the holy light. They even had this big ass wheel and everything. xP

And they were pretty friendly with the humans of Lordareon. So much they came to help them during the scourge and everything and teach them the arcane arts.

But it shows the Orcs capable of change, right? Where the hell did those Raiders, the main offensive unit of the Orcs for years go? What happened to the sorcerous magic of the Necrolytes? Why would they abandon such powerful tools for Ogre Magi? All in a matter of months.

I don't think the Sunwell was the same as Holy Light, it was more magical and arcane. And human requests for elvish support was really putting a strain on the relationship. They couldn't cut ties off entirely because of their oath with Arathor, and links to Dalaran, but it was more of a half hearted obligation thing. The Elves that fought on the human side in the Third War and tried to cleanse the land of scourge taint were more like volunteers, not an official commitment from Quel'Thalas.

EDIT:

After the Second War ended, Anasterian withdrew his support from the Alliance. The official stance was that the humans' poor leadership resulted in the burning of Eversong Woods

 

[Amnestic]

So much they came to help them during the scourge

Not quite. Any High Elves found during the events of the Scourge Plague in Lordaeron were independents that had come because they'd heard of the trouble. The High Elf governing body didn't send any troops or assistance to Lordaeron as the plague ravaged their lands.

 

[Zer_]

Still it's not 6 years that will force 10,000 years out of your head.

Weren't at least half of the Night Elf population asleep for that 10,000 years? For some of them maybe its a pretty easy bond to break.

Either way, there were night elves who were dicky enough to use magic in the first place, and renegades like Maiev prove that they can still be headstrong, arrogant and careless. Its entirely possible that mainstream 'conservative' (for want of a better word) Night Elves will still shun mage magic, but the angry quick tempered ones will take it up as soon as they see its destructive power.

The sleeping ones is even worst cause those would remenber everything that happened more fresh. Either way they were in the emerald dream and they could "feel" the earth. So no.

Again, I ask. In the interest of moving the world forward and not just remaining static, what is wrong with a section of the Night Elves deciding that this is a world where they cannot be afraid of these energies, but need them to fight the powers that have shattered Azeroth? With deciding that clinging to these old hatreds and taboos is just foolish?

Again? I need to explain this again?

10,000 years of seclusion believing that the evil comes from arcane magic, then all that time passed, they see that evil has returned because of the same magic and then one of the aspects of the world went bat-shit insane cause people have been using the same magic.

Shouldn't the best way to solve problems stop using that kind of magic? But no. They decide to go along, even when it only brings troubles. It's illogical. Even in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory would be out of touch with reality.

This reminds of the conflits in Tolkiens world. Where progression was seen as evil. Melkor/Sauron/Saruman every single one of them renounced the nature and tried to pursue a technological way. In the eyes of the elves, pursuing the way of the iron and the machine was evil.(hence why the dislike dwarves.)(And theres also that thing that Morgoth fused his evilness in the earth itself but im streamlining here...)
Industry was seen as a evil in Arda the same way as Magic is seen evil in Azeroth.

Malygos' descent into madness stems from Deathwing nearly killing his entire brood of dragonkin. The use of arcane magic throughout Azeroth was not the cause of Malygos' madness.

 

[Amnestic]

Malygos' descent into madness stems from Deathwing nearly killing his entire brood of dragonkin. The use of arcane magic throughout Azeroth was not the cause of Malygos' madness.

Indeed. Malygos' war on magic, is a result of him becoming more lucid and recovering from the madness at the loss of his brood. He saw what had happened to the world and deemed magic use too rampant and that anyone using magic would either have to side with him or die.

He was, in fact, quite sane when the Nexus War ended and was doing his job. He was trying to protect the world from Magic the only way he saw possible.

 

[Philosopher of Chaos]

In my honest opinion, I do not really care for the Night Elves anymore. The 'jiggle' made me lose the respect I had. The thing that really bugs me is Tauren Paladins. How in the world are they going to crowbar this into lore NE mages kinda makes since, well, a lot of things can change in six years. As it has been said many times above, they stopped using the arcane so they don't attract the Legion. That obviously didn't pan out so, hey, why not? But Tauren Paladins? I really can't see this- ever. What's next, Tauren Rouges?

Also why Elves (in Lord of the Rings) hate technology is because of the Tolkien's personal stance. He fought in World War One, he saw what technology did to people: artillery, machine guns, tanks, just to name a few, destroyed many many lives for...a few hundred yards of land at best not, to mention the marring of the land really bugged him, seeing as he was a man deeply in love with nature. So, to tell the truth, it's not really surprising he would place things like Elves and Hobbits in his universe to reflect his views and ideals.

 

[lightbound]

Personally I think it's good that the game world is changing:

From a lore perspective it keeps things fresh and gives the developers more opportunity to throw interesting plot lines that we haven't seen before.

Whereas from a game play point of view the players are getting a wider variety in character choices, which I think is something a lot of players want to see (mind you, I recognize there is concern for homogenization)

I'm sure we will see plenty of lore reasoning for the class changes with the expansion, for example, there are already hints for the Tauren Paladin changes:
http://www.wow.com/2009/06/28/patch-3-2-ptr-tauren-druid-conversation-may-reveal-lore-and-exp/

 

[McNinja]

Personally I think it's good that the game world is changing:

From a lore perspective it keeps things fresh and gives the developers more opportunity to throw interesting plot lines that we haven't seen before.

Whereas from a game play point of view the players are getting a wider variety in character choices, which I think is something a lot of players want to see (mind you, I recognize there is concern for homogenization)

I'm sure we will see plenty of lore reasoning for the class changes with the expansion, for example, there are already hints for the Tauren Paladin changes:
http://www.wow.com/2009/06/28/patch-3-2-ptr-tauren-druid-conversation-may-reveal-lore-and-exp/

Very interesting...

I can't wait to try out the Worgen. Or everything else, for that matter.

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

I always found the concept of "Blizzcon" funny. It's not like there's a great deal of depth to Blizzard. They should really just rename it to "WoWWank 2009"

 

[sunpop]

Dwarf shammy tauren pally GOBLINS AS A PLAYABLE RACE! So blizzard has just accepted there gonna butcher the lore beyond recognition?

Thank god for Aion

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

The class combination is what makes me really go lorelol. I thought Metzen went to Fantasy writing school.

While most of the Warcraft lore comes from the lost pages of Tolkien's notes, Metzen seems to be focused on keeping bending the rules of his own world. Night Elves now can be mages, even tho they rejected that sort of magic 10,000 years ago cause it attracted The Burning Legion to Azeroth! So even tho they kept that way for 10,000 years in a time span of 6 years they decide, "Fuck it, if they doing why don't we do it?"

I could go on and on, but I don't have the patience. This is an example of how this type of fantasy setting shouldn't be an ever-expanding MMORPG, the gameplay overcomes the rules set to the make belief world and it becomes Lorelol. But most of the world rules had already been broken from the first minute the game went online so...

Actually, alot of the class changes have been explained.


Check out WoW forums for more info.

 

[John Funk]

Dwarf shammy tauren pally GOBLINS AS A PLAYABLE RACE! So blizzard has just accepted there gonna butcher the lore beyond recognition?

Thank god for Aion

Dwarf Shaman - Wildhammer clan. Makes sense.

Tauren Paladin - foreshadowed in 3.2. Makes sense.

Goblins as a playable race - uh... what's wrong with this again?

The Draenei retcon was butchering the lore. This is advancing the story.

 

[oliveira8]

Thats kinda different.(The WC1 example) The horde was taken by a different general, who had other ideas and plans.

The High Elves cared for the holy light. They even had this big ass wheel and everything. xP

And they were pretty friendly with the humans of Lordareon. So much they came to help them during the scourge and everything and teach them the arcane arts.

But it shows the Orcs capable of change, right? Where the hell did those Raiders, the main offensive unit of the Orcs for years go? What happened to the sorcerous magic of the Necrolytes? Why would they abandon such powerful tools for Ogre Magi? All in a matter of months.

I don't think the Sunwell was the same as Holy Light, it was more magical and arcane. And human requests for elvish support was really putting a strain on the relationship. They couldn't cut ties off entirely because of their oath with Arathor, and links to Dalaran, but it was more of a half hearted obligation thing. The Elves that fought on the human side in the Third War and tried to cleanse the land of scourge taint were more like volunteers, not an official commitment from Quel'Thalas.

EDIT:

After the Second War ended, Anasterian withdrew his support from the Alliance. The official stance was that the humans' poor leadership resulted in the burning of Eversong Woods

But Doomhammer still used Deathknights, Warlocks, Ogre Magi and other dudes.(At least I think he did.) The trolls and goblins were the help he needed to take Lordareon as they were native to the land and willing to join them. They did not change in months, they didn't change at all. The new horde leader decided it was better to get the natives and accept the help from the Ogres from Outland to overcome the humans. The blood haze was still there, but the situation was different. In the first war the humans didn't really expect the Orcs, on the second war they had to get more creative. It was still the same Orcs from the first war but using more complex tactis then Blitzkrieg 101.

And the Sunwell was a sort of magical convergence point, where the High Elves took their powers including what the humans called Holy Light. Blizzard introducing the Naaru(or whatever) fucked up all rules set for the holy light. That it isn't just magic it's something that comes from a higher being, making the whole Sunwell deal in WC3 look stupid. The Sunwell(And the Well of Eternity) was a place for raw magic where the High Elves bended it to what they want it.

There was plenty of High Elves that came to the aid of the humans durin g the plague on their own. Plenty of them and emmissairs from Quel'Thalas. They did not send a full force but they sent wizards and priests. They even say that in game.

In my honest opinion, I do not really care for the Night Elves anymore. The 'jiggle' made me lose the respect I had. The thing that really bugs me is Tauren Paladins. How in the world are they going to crowbar this into lore NE mages kinda makes since, well, a lot of things can change in six years. As it has been said many times above, they stopped using the arcane so they don't attract the Legion. That obviously didn't pan out so, hey, why not? But Tauren Paladins? I really can't see this- ever. What's next, Tauren Rouges?

Also why Elves (in Lord of the Rings) hate technology is because of the Tolkien's personal stance. He fought in World War One, he saw what technology did to people: artillery, machine guns, tanks, just to name a few, destroyed many many lives for...a few hundred yards of land at best not, to mention the marring of the land really bugged him, seeing as he was a man deeply in love with nature. So, to tell the truth, it's not really surprising he would place things like Elves and Hobbits in his universe to reflect his views and ideals.

Well of course it didn't pan out cause people kept using magic! But it's still illogical for a race like those elves change so dramaticly like that. It feels and sounds shoehorned, the same with Tauren Paladins, undead hunters and Dwarf Shamans.

All the classes should be remade to fit the races culture. But Blizzard won't do that. Too much work.

 

[John Funk]

Thats kinda different.(The WC1 example) The horde was taken by a different general, who had other ideas and plans.

The High Elves cared for the holy light. They even had this big ass wheel and everything. xP

And they were pretty friendly with the humans of Lordareon. So much they came to help them during the scourge and everything and teach them the arcane arts.

But it shows the Orcs capable of change, right? Where the hell did those Raiders, the main offensive unit of the Orcs for years go? What happened to the sorcerous magic of the Necrolytes? Why would they abandon such powerful tools for Ogre Magi? All in a matter of months.

I don't think the Sunwell was the same as Holy Light, it was more magical and arcane. And human requests for elvish support was really putting a strain on the relationship. They couldn't cut ties off entirely because of their oath with Arathor, and links to Dalaran, but it was more of a half hearted obligation thing. The Elves that fought on the human side in the Third War and tried to cleanse the land of scourge taint were more like volunteers, not an official commitment from Quel'Thalas.

EDIT:

After the Second War ended, Anasterian withdrew his support from the Alliance. The official stance was that the humans' poor leadership resulted in the burning of Eversong Woods

But Doomhammer still used Deathknights, Warlocks, Ogre Magi and other dudes.(At least I think he did.) The trolls and goblins were the help he needed to take Lordareon as they were native to the land and willing to join them. They did not change in months, they didn't change at all. The new horde leader decided it was better to get the natives and accept the help from the Ogres from Outland to overcome the humans. The blood haze was still there, but the situation was different. In the first war the humans didn't really expect the Orcs, on the second war they had to get more creative. It was still the same Orcs from the first war but using more complex tactis then Blitzkrieg 101.

And the Sunwell was a sort of magical convergence point, where the High Elves took their powers including what the humans called Holy Light. Blizzard introducing the Naaru(or whatever) fucked up all rules set for the holy light. That it isn't just magic it's something that comes from a higher being, making the whole Sunwell deal in WC3 look stupid. The Sunwell(And the Well of Eternity) was a place for raw magic where the High Elves bended it to what they want it.

There was plenty of High Elves that came to the aid of the humans durin g the plague on their own. Plenty of them and emmissairs from Quel'Thalas. They did not send a full force but they sent wizards and priests. They even say that in game.

In my honest opinion, I do not really care for the Night Elves anymore. The 'jiggle' made me lose the respect I had. The thing that really bugs me is Tauren Paladins. How in the world are they going to crowbar this into lore NE mages kinda makes since, well, a lot of things can change in six years. As it has been said many times above, they stopped using the arcane so they don't attract the Legion. That obviously didn't pan out so, hey, why not? But Tauren Paladins? I really can't see this- ever. What's next, Tauren Rouges?

Also why Elves (in Lord of the Rings) hate technology is because of the Tolkien's personal stance. He fought in World War One, he saw what technology did to people: artillery, machine guns, tanks, just to name a few, destroyed many many lives for...a few hundred yards of land at best not, to mention the marring of the land really bugged him, seeing as he was a man deeply in love with nature. So, to tell the truth, it's not really surprising he would place things like Elves and Hobbits in his universe to reflect his views and ideals.

Well of course it didn't pan out cause people kept using magic! But it's still illogical for a race like those elves change so dramaticly like that. It feels and sounds shoehorned, the same with Tauren Paladins, undead hunters and Dwarf Shamans.

All the classes should be remade to fit the races culture. But Blizzard won't do that. Too much work.

I get the feeling that neither of us is going to convince the other re: the Nelf Mage POV, but... Undead Hunters? Nathanos Marris ring a bell, and if Humans can be hunters, no reason their undead selves can't be.

Dwarf Shamans makes perfect sense. Look at the Wildhammer clan. They're pretty damn shaman-y.

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Nathanos makes sense cause his pets are well...almost dead if not dead. He has bloodhounds(I think he had dogs....) infected dogs with the plague, possibly dead.

Explain an undead get a hold of a tiger and create a bound with a living animal. Humans can cause they have emotion left and are alive! They can't cause they be dead. Fuck that was the reason that there wasn't any Undead hunters in the first place! In order to make some sense, the animals should die and be ressurected to their undead hunter. It makes no sense that an animal would stick with a rotting soulless, dead inside create a bound. You know the mechanic is treat your pet with love and biscuits so he likes you. There isn't much sense why Undead folk would run around with living pets if they DON'T CARE FOR THE LIVING!!! If I remenber right theres even a quote that the forsaken say "DEATH TO THE LIVING!"

So what? all the pets the Forsaken get are going to be killed or pumped with the plague?

And theres the reason why Human can be hunters and Undead can't. Undeads don't have a real concept of love/or to take care of something living. Which is the whole point of the Hunter Class. You're suppose to create somekind of love bound with your pet, something that dead people can't really feel. The possible solution is to kill the beast or pump the animal with a disease aka PETA bait.

And yeah Dwarf Shamans make sense, since those sods are back. But what about Tauren Paladins? I read that link that someone posted around here, and it says (To keep it short) that they started to worship the sun to get their Holy Lights. Why do they bother to do this, when the it's already established that the Naaru are the source of the light?

 

[SomeBritishDude]

The Guild Advancement is probably the one thing that Blizzard can honestly say it hasn't blatantly ripped off from any other MMO...

I think Dark Age of Chamalot and Warhammer Online would disagree with you there.

I have to say I've never seen an MMO change it's old zones as dramatically as this. Though no MMO has the money to do something this huge.

 

[Fiskmasen]

Damn. Everytime I quit playing they announce a new expansion. I resisted Burning Crusade, got trapped by Wrath of the Lich King (but has since stopped). This looks too good to pass up...