Yes, Women in Dragon Age Could Use Longswords

NoX 9

I Want A Hug!
Jul 2, 2014
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Wolyo said:
One of the thing about woman using swords, it's when they are well endowed it become difficult sometime impossible to use two-handed guard or technique with swords, even more so if you have a breast plate wide enough to accomodate your physique. That's the only point you could make against a woman using a hand and a half sword.
I am what most would describe as 'well endowed', and I suppose there are certain fighting styles and techniques that wouldn't be easy or possible with large breasts. I regularily practice with a bow though, and I have no trouble doing that. A few years ago I went to some fencing practices and I managed the basics just fine (never got beyond that). Women with a similar physique to me were there and seemed to cope as well.

A good sportsbra does help though...
 

Aggieknight

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Dec 6, 2009
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Queen Michael said:
I get your point and I agree, actually. What I meant was that if it'd been impossible for women to handle a longsword (which it of course isn't), you need to give an explanation for how they can handle them. (Well, unless the universe as a whole is one where everybody goes around with gigantic swords.)
Aaaahhh! I get it.

Thanks for clarifying. Agree 100%.
 

Twinmill5000

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Nov 12, 2009
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It won't let me quote for some reason, but I still think this needs to be brought up.

Initial D:
Things I accept:
-16 year old that has been drifting since he was 12
-you can monologue about deep philosophy while racing down a mountain
-no cops anywhere

Things I don't accept:
-Ryosuke not having a girlfriend

Kill la Kill
Things I accept:
-Everything.

Borderlands:
Things I accept:
-billions of guns
-magical stations that save your mirror image and resurrect you when you die (but don't end poverty on the planet)
-'meat bicycles'

Things I don't accept:
-Roland [SPOILER REDACTED]

Dragon Age:
Things I accept:
-Women with 2h swords

Things I don't accept:
-Ironbull's... bull.

MAN THIS ARGUMENT IS REALLY EFFECTIVE AND I MADE SOME REALLY GOOD POINTS.
 

PirateRose

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Aug 13, 2008
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Good article. One could say, that medieval swords tended to weigh about the same or less than a baby. Wow.

I will never forget that time on youtube, when I used to post KOTOR2 videos back in the day and before the exile was canonized as a woman, a random guy decided to private message me and inform me that the Exile can't be a woman because the Exile was a general. Women are too emotional, too weak, wouldn't be able to handle such a task.

So I sent back link to a wiki page of factual, historical women warriors and military leaders, and in case he refused to click that link I shared my favorites. Including the pirate Ching Shih, who commanded a fleet estimated to be of 1,800 ships and a crew of upwards of 80,000 (both men and women), and she beat the crap out of British, Chinese, and Portuguese so hard, they essentially paid her to retire.
 

hermes

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Topsider said:
hermes200 said:
dunam said:
I think the reason that in popular culture women are more likely to use bows is down to the fact that we don't like to see women get hurt and they're not as expendable as men.
I believe the tradition comes from classic mythology (meaning Greek and Roman). In those myths, the only representatives of "warrior women" were the amazons, who were almost always archers. They were famous for (allegedly) cutting their right breast to be able to wield a bow more competently...

It it curious that we took the Greek tradition, though. Other mythologies (for example, the Scandinavian) are full of women that were more than competent in armed combat, and they often used the same weapons as men: battle axes, warhammers and maces.
I'm hardly a Germanic mythology scholar, but other than the Valkyries, I can't think of any other Norse female warrior women.
For one, both the Celtic and Scandinavian gods of war were actually goddesses (Freiya for the Vikings, Andraste for the Celtics) and you can be sure they could pull their own weight in a fight. There are a number of folk characters that are woman too, for example: Brunhild, Muirisc, Aife and Blenda. Some of them are historical figures, some of them are exaggerated folks characters...
Besides, the Scandinavians had the tradition of shieldmaidens in real life, that were basically warrior women, many of them were featured in myths and folk stories.
 

grigjd3

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@PirateRose, babies, overall, weigh quite a bit more than 4-6 pounds. Some newborns come in that low but they gain weight pretty fast. My 1-year-old is considered median weight at 20 lbs.
 

Haerthan

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Lightknight said:
Of course women can wield those types of weapons, they just wouldn't have nearly the endurance with them that they may have with a weapon that's even just a few pounds lighter. Women mostly didn't fight in the Middle Ages because of the huge chasm of strength disparity that our sexual dimorphism provides. It wasn't that they're emotionally different (holy hell, ever had a woman raging mad at you? Get out of the way sucka), it's that they have significant physical disadvantages in strength. Even in today's society where we don't have to battle every year or do physical work men are 50% stronger in upper body strength than women and 20-30% stronger in lower body strength than women (on average, of course). In order to just break even with men an average woman has to double her upper body strength. This comes at a cost to agility that the average man doesn't actually have to worry about thanks to their naturally larger frame. Now, a man doubling his strength does need to worry about it in the same way.

Another thing that women differ from men in is hand grip. The interesting thing there is that even female athletes cannot reach the level of hand strength as men (on the average). It's one of those things that isn't just a matter of "doubling your strength" and yet directly applies to smashing objects with a weapon you want to hold onto for long periods of time.

So you do get women who exceed the average man but there's a bit of a trade off in doing so. Also, the disparity in strength was likely larger back then than it is now due to cultural differences and labor differences.

Either way, most soldiers didn't where armor and a sword in the gut from a woman kills just as much as from a man. Is it unrealistic for a woman to be wielding a relatively heavy weapon into battle? Yeah, a little, but only because it puts them at a disadvantage compared to other weapons they could be using. Women are just at such a disadvantage physically that being disadvantaged by a heavier weapon is small compared to the overall disadvantage.

Now, could a woman in dragon age use longswords? Yes, it's a fucking game. Women can also turn into dragons and slay villages. Using longswords is where disbelief kicks in?
Ok I am going to ask you to back up your assertion that our sexual dimorphism has a huge strength difference. Through scientific studies. And second I am actually trained to use a sword, and believe me strength isnt such a huge factor. Longswords were made for thrusting and stabbing. Only katanas and broadswords were meant for slashing.

Three with proper training and diet, believe me, women can reach the same amount of strength that men can. So your assertion that there is a strength disparity is nothing more than the left-overs of the Victorian era, a sad chapter in our history.

Edit: swords also aren't that heavy. My sword weighs around 1.5 kgs. My sister's sword weighs 1 kg, and guess what she can slice and dice with that. Hell 8 pounds (those Zweihander) isnt even 4 kg. Actually read the article.
 

Haerthan

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Mar 16, 2014
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Topsider said:
hermes200 said:
Topsider said:
hermes200 said:
dunam said:
I think the reason that in popular culture women are more likely to use bows is down to the fact that we don't like to see women get hurt and they're not as expendable as men.
I believe the tradition comes from classic mythology (meaning Greek and Roman). In those myths, the only representatives of "warrior women" were the amazons, who were almost always archers. They were famous for (allegedly) cutting their right breast to be able to wield a bow more competently...

It it curious that we took the Greek tradition, though. Other mythologies (for example, the Scandinavian) are full of women that were more than competent in armed combat, and they often used the same weapons as men: battle axes, warhammers and maces.
I'm hardly a Germanic mythology scholar, but other than the Valkyries, I can't think of any other Norse female warrior women.
For one, both the Celtic and Scandinavian gods of war were actually goddesses (Freiya for the Vikings, Andraste for the Celtics) and you can be sure they could pull their own weight in a fight. There are a number of folk characters that are woman too, for example: Brunhild, Muirisc, Aife and Blenda. Some of them are historical figures, some of them are exaggerated folks characters...
Besides, the Scandinavians had the tradition of shieldmaidens in real life, that were basically warrior women, many of them were featured in myths and folk stories.
Freyja and Andraste were hardly the only, or even the primary, gods of war in those particular pantheons. And while shieldmaidens certainly exist in folklore, there's zero hard evidence that they actually existed in reality. Upper body strength's a pretty significant deal when you're trying to pull off a shield wall.
Shieldmaidens have actually existed dude. There is historical evidence, from Byzantine sources, from Danish sources. Archaeology has also discovered graves of women with arms and armour in them. And again that assertion that women were weaker than men. THat is a completely wrong one, especially when the diet was the same (hello middle Ages) and training as a warrior was available for everyone.
 

Ishigami

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Sep 1, 2011
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Haerthan said:
Ok I am going to ask you to back up your assertion that our sexual dimorphism has a huge strength difference. Through scientific studies.
Miller AE, MacDougall JD, Tarnopolsky MA, Sale DG (1993). "Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics". European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology 66 (3): 254?62. doi:10.1007/BF00235103. PMID 8477683.

Acc. Wikipedia, you are welcome.


I don't believe it. I mean I don't believe that the author of the article really came across that many of these arguments. To me it seems more likely the author misinterprets some arguments?
I read my faire share of comments about Dragon Age and tbh I?ve never seen the argument a women wouldn?t be able to wield a sword? however I have seen several that made the case that a women would be at a natural disadvantage against a man in close quarter combat due to our dimorphism.
I think that holds up.
 

GundamSentinel

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Aug 23, 2009
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Topsider said:
Haerthan said:
Ok I am going to ask you to back up your assertion that our sexual dimorphism has a huge strength difference. Through scientific studies. And second I am actually trained to use a sword, and believe me strength isnt such a huge factor. Longswords were made for thrusting and stabbing. Only katanas and broadswords were meant for slashing.

Three with proper training and diet, believe me, women can reach the same amount of strength that men can. So your assertion that there is a strength disparity is nothing more than the left-overs of the Victorian era, a sad chapter in our history.
That's not quite accurate. There aren't exactly a shortage of sources discussing the difference in strength [http://www.tradoc.army.mil/historian/pubs/mixed%20gender.pdf] capacity [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303] between [http://jap.physiology.org/content/89/1/81] males [file:///D:/Downloads/1987_Bishop_Sex%20difference%20in%20muscular_Ergonomics.pdf] and [http://www.livestrong.com/article/509536-muscular-strength-in-women-compared-to-men/] females [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683].
Or just watch sports. You'll see that in basically every discipline that requires strength or endurance, male records are higher than female records. Hell, even the fact that there are so few mixed gender sports. It's pretty damn obvious.
 

Twinmill5000

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Nov 12, 2009
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You're leaving out alot of valid points if you're trying to argue the plausibility of a woman having higher than average upper body strength, as far as raw muscle mass goes. It's common knowledge that testosterone is a primary catalyst for muscle growth, and more traditional, 'masculine' muscle distribution. As is also common knowledge, you can get testosterone from eating red meat, beans, oysters, tuna, etc., and vitamin D is a large catalyst for its absorption into the body.

Thus, in a society next to the ocean (or bean farm), with plenty of work that needed to be done outside (in the sun), it's entirely plausible that the differences in testosterone between men and women are alot less extreme when compared to today's society (where you have the choice to, say, not eat oysters and stand out in the sun all day long).

Probable? No. Absolutely not. Plausible that something such as the Shieldmaidens could have existed? Extremely.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am saying that it's possible that the conditions for their society, in that era, permitted women to consume much more testosterone than even a FTM transgender takes. It also coincides with the hypothesis that the human body actually relies on largely external sources for its testosterone intake, meaning in a very hunter-heavy society, both men and women would have similar physique.
 

Tradjus

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Apr 25, 2011
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I have literally never heard this argument made, is this a common one on the net? It's ridiculous, sure, but that's the problem. This argument is so ridiculously stupid that it should simply be ignored, not have articles written about it.
 

TheBanMan_v1legacy

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Sep 17, 2010
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Ihateregistering1 said:
I've always wondered: has any RPG (either CRPG or pen and paper) ever made it so that choosing a female vs. male character actually affects anything beyond visual representation, voice, and romance options (Fallout's "lady killer" and "Black Widow" Perks notwithstanding)? Like choosing a female gives you -2 strength but +2 agility, or something along those lines?
I remember playing 'Pool of Radiance' where a females maximum strength score was 18(50) whereas a males was 18(100)... This was back when the rules were that if you had an 18 strength, you then had a percentile added to for another level of modifier... This was back in the AD&D days, I believe.
 

ProtoChimp

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What fucking what? People are saying...
[HEADING=1]WHAT FUCKING WHAT?![/HEADING]

HOW? How are people this fucking stupid and ignorant. Have they not seen physically strong women before? Body builders, athletes, fucking PE teacher Jesus Christ. This is some old world thinking shit right here.
 

Venatio

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Sep 6, 2009
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The great fault in all of this lies in the author for acknowledging the idiots who make this assertion to begin with. People who have any actual knowledge of medieval martial arts know that a sword no woman could comfortably wield is probably a weapon that few, if any, actual male warriors would choose to go into battle with. A heavy sword in a pitched battle is going to be about as useful as a gun with a very small magazine. And we are talking about women who have practiced with swords, which makes a big difference. It doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman, if you have not trained properly you will be unfit for any fight with any weapon.

Is it stupid in medieval movies like "Ironclad" when a woman with no indication of prior training just picks up a sword and hacks through enemy soldiers? Yes, about as annoying as in "The Hobbit: Battle of Five Armies" when young boys and untrained fishermen are going toe-to-toe with fully armored orcs and somehow not being instantly slaughtered. But a female elf in Inquisition who is a warrior by profession using a sword effectively is not something I would consider egregious.