"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"

[Chris OBrien]

I care in a "that's rather distasteful (no pun intended)" sort of way, not in a "omg I'm offended" sort of way. Also, lentils taste like shit. I'd rather have tofu or eggs (you're not against eggs, are you?).

In the end, I only really have moral concern for human problems. I'm not saying vegetarians don't have a sound moral argument; it just doesn't have any internal appeal to me. Sort of like act utilitarianism sounds wonderful on paper, but in practice it is utterly unappealing and often disturbing.

You know what would be kind of funny though? If in a few decades or so, only-humans-matter attitudes no longer exist, and the word "humanist" takes on the same sort of connotation as "racist" does today

In most cases, it'd probably be less cruel to cut to the chase and eat chickens instead of confining them for their eggs. It's truly gruesome stuff.

Luckily you have a world of other options: avocado, seitan, tempeh, tofu, and a fucking rainbow of legumes. Lentils aren't compulsory, though I'm puzzled that you don't like them.

As for the utilitarian bit, how's being a vegan disturbing? I don't use animal products and... there isn't a ethical downside here. It's not like I'm letting a baby drown so I can sell my expensive suit (instead of ruining it while rescuing the drowning baby) in order to save more babies.

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

You are probably the most reasonable, well-informed person I've seen post. Thanks for speaking up.

 

[Spartan Altego]

I love animals. But you know what I love about a good amount of them?

They taste great.

 

[RoBi3.0]

I care in a "that's rather distasteful (no pun intended)" sort of way, not in a "omg I'm offended" sort of way. Also, lentils taste like shit. I'd rather have tofu or eggs (you're not against eggs, are you?).

In the end, I only really have moral concern for human problems. I'm not saying vegetarians don't have a sound moral argument; it just doesn't have any internal appeal to me. Sort of like act utilitarianism sounds wonderful on paper, but in practice it is utterly unappealing and often disturbing.

You know what would be kind of funny though? If in a few decades or so, only-humans-matter attitudes no longer exist, and the word "humanist" takes on the same sort of connotation as "racist" does today

In most cases, it'd probably be less cruel to cut to the chase and eat chickens instead of confining them for their eggs. It's truly gruesome stuff.

Luckily you have a world of other options: avocado, seitan, tempeh, tofu, and a fucking rainbow of legumes. Lentils aren't compulsory, though I'm puzzled that you don't like them.

As for the utilitarian bit, how's being a vegan disturbing? I don't use animal products and... there isn't a ethical downside here. It's not like I'm letting a baby drown so I can sell my expensive suit (instead of ruining it while rescuing the drowning baby) in order to save more babies.

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

You are probably the most reasonable, well-informed person I've seen post. Thanks for speaking up.

Thanks

 

[Chris OBrien]

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

Quinoa is rammed with carbs...
I asked " What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?". The carb content of quinoa instantly means it's not a source of protein, but a source of carbs, with a little bit of protein on the side for good measure.
All of those vegs are lacking in protein (~30g per 100g) and the volume you would require is not realistic either. The protein to calorie ratio is far worse in veg as meat is almost 100% protein. That guy really doesn't look like a bodybuilder. I'm talking guys who are 15+ stone of muscle; that guy isn't even 14 stone.
If we are omnivores then we should eat meat...We can move our jaws left and right but now go and chew like a cow. It doesn't work as our teeth are designed to work vertically. Why should we eat minuscule amounts of meat when both fat and carbs turn into fat? Unless you want an obesity epidemic, or reduce the RDA, something has to change.
As I said the grain surplus is due to law, not cattle. As for those shipping trucks, it's better then harvesters, that's for sure, as insulation can help out whereas moving tons of metal is always going to be demanding.

I'm sorry, you've left the realm of facts and reason.

If it has protein in it, it is a source of protein.

Meat is not 100% protein. In the best cases, it's closer to 30% - http://www.livestrong.com/article/535346-the-protein-content-in-chicken/


The protein to calorie ratio can be very good in vegetables and they do not contain cholesterol, like all meat does. I showed you one article about vegan muscle builders--just one--to show that it is possible to build and sustain muscle without meat protein. Regardless, there is no practical reason to be 15+ stone. As I have written over and over, I agree that an ideal diet for omnivores includes a small amount of meat. Vegan and Vegetarians would rather not take part in an industry and culture they are deeply opposed to--instead supplementing and finding other sources of protein rather than contribute to the mass factory farming of livestock. There is already an obesity epidemic and it's not because people aren't eating enough meat. Shipping trucks are not better than harvesters.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

'Possible' like cold fusion is possible, sure. If you're buying eggs at a grocery store or a restaurant, what you're describing doesn't happen. Yes, even if the label says 'cage free'. It's little more than technicalities and marketing. Plus there's the inherent issue of 'spent' animals that are slaughtered when they're not longer profitable, culled males, overcrowding and unsanitary conditions. Fact is, the egg industry isn't humane.

I never claimed that being vegan was the 'most optimal' diet; despite what fad diets will tell you I don't think there is one. I didn't become vegan for health reasons. But is it inherently unhealthy? No. I'm vegan. I understand what I'm eating and eat a variety of vegetables, grains and legumes, but I'm not spreadsheeting my diet like it's a weightwatcher's plan or something. I'm also pretty damn healthy, quite inadvertently.

Also, I'm not sure what you're doing to fuck up lentils that badly. Are you buying dried or canned? It's possible if you're buying a particularly bad canned brand you'll wind up with a metallic taste. I've never heard a complaint about lentils ever until today. (Then again, I hear people complain about the taste of broccoli and wholewheat bread.) Anyway, as I said, it's not your only fucking option.

 

[Bocaj2000]

>Sees out of context statement about a vegetarian's opinion of Facebook
>Jimmies get rustled
>Post about how much love meat, specifically bacon for some reason, in retaliation to the anonymous vegetarian whom don't even know.

>Someone claims to be a vegetarian/vegan
>Get offended at someone else's lifestyle
>Make assumptions about stranger and argue

 

[dyre]

Ok, but I already eat avocado and tofu...it's just that having some grilled chicken or sweet and sour pork too is really...appealing >_>

I haven't heard of seitan and tempeh, but google images makes it look like some kind of vegetable-made meat substitute, which already makes me not want to eat it, lol. I'll try it sometime though, and I promise you, if it tastes better than steak, I'll cut down my animal consumption by 50%.

Sorry, I didn't mean the disturbing bit about vegetarians (utilitarians are disturbing, but not vegetarians). I mean, in some scenarios the utilitarian answer seems "right," but I still wouldn't do it. As in, I just don't care enough about other people (relative to how much I care about myself) to give away all my discretionary income. It probably makes me a bad person, but hey, I live on a planet in which 100% of people are bad, so w/e.

I don't see tempeh, tofu, or seitan as meat substitutes, despite the fact that they're often marketed as such. Culinarily speaking, it's better to look at them as distinct foods in their own right, instead of an attempt to replicate something they're not.

In answering your comments about tempeh and tofu, tempeh's from India, made of beans (often, but not always soy) that has more texture to it than tofu. Seitan's pure wheat protein, often marketed as a substitute for chicken.

As for being a bad person, there is a difference between actions and people. However, the way I see it is 'why do something you don't support if you can do something else?' I know I ultimately can't bargain with myself on what I understand to be right.

Anyway, I don't think I can convince you to become vegan, this isn't really an attempt at it, but it's cool to have a dialog on the internet about it without one of us attempting to burn the other at a steak.

heh, I see what you did there...

I used to think like that (not specifically about veganism, just in general), but then I realized that for almost everything I consume - that is, that I purchase as a consumer, not necessarily eat/digest/etc - from shoes to chocolate, people somewhere down the supply chain are working in horrible conditions and suffering with no end in sight so that "1st World" consumers like me can live comfortably. It wasn't really a sudden realization, just that as I slowly learned more about the world outside just the "feel good" stuff like CNN or docudramas about certain industries, it just eventually seemed completely hopeless to really live that set of morals. I'm probably not even aware about 95% of the horribly stuff I indirectly support.

Nowadays I just try to avoid inflicting direct harm on others (humans, that is. I can't even bring myself to care about animals much). And of course I'll "promote awareness" on problems I feel particularly interested in, but I don't try to pretend that I'm really making a difference, or even living in way that doesn't indirectly contribute to the misery of others.

I'm not trying to say your worldview is naive or impossible, btw. I'm just trying to explain why I'm personally disillusioned about being a...I guess I'll call it a "righteous consumer," haha.

 

[RoBi3.0]

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

'Possible' like cold fusion is possible, sure. If you're buying eggs at a grocery store or a restaurant, what you're describing doesn't happen. Yes, even if the label says 'cage free'. It's little more than technicalities and marketing. Plus there's the inherent issue of 'spent' animals that are slaughtered when they're not longer profitable, culled males, overcrowding and unsanitary conditions. Fact is, the egg industry isn't humane.

I never claimed that being vegan was the 'most optimal' diet; despite what fad diets will tell you I don't think there is one. I didn't become vegan for health reasons. But is it inherently unhealthy? No. I'm vegan. I understand what I'm eating and eat a variety of vegetables, grains and legumes, but I'm not spreadsheeting my diet like it's a weightwatcher's plan or something. I'm also pretty damn healthy, quite inadvertently.

Also, I'm not sure what you're doing to fuck up lentils that badly. Are you buying dried or canned? It's possible if you're buying a particularly bad canned brand you'll wind up with a metallic taste. I've never heard a complaint about lentils ever until today. (Then again, I hear people complain about the taste of broccoli and wholewheat bread.) Anyway, as I said, it's not your only fucking option.

It seem to me that you only see in extremes, as there doesn't appear to be any middle ground, with you. Yes commercial produced chicken are not treated well. That however doesn't mean that it is impossible to get eggs from a chicken without caging it up. I know quite a few people that keep chicken for eggs and let them roam about at their leisure. These people might also have a cold fusion reactor in their basements I suppose or maybe they have magic chickens or maybe just maybe you can keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up.

No I do not buy canned lentils. In fact I do not buy a large amount of canned food generally because of sodium content and the fact that typically it is cheaper to make most canned stuffs if you know how and care to, and by doing so I know exactly what went in to it. I use dried in regard to beans and things of that nature. Lentils I just haven't found appealing when I have made them. If you want to provide me with a recipe for good lentils I will try it out. I really want to like lentils as the are super cheap and super healthy, just haven't had much luck with them.

I never implied that that anyone needed to Hawk eye their diets, but they do need to care about them. The fast food industry is enormous simply because people don't care. The fact that the majority of a supermarket is filled with processed food and "boxed" dinners is disturbing. Seriously go to a supermarket and look most of the food they sell there is barely food. That is the problem. If people even paid half as much attention to what they were eating as the lest uptight vegan our national health would improve.

 

[RoBi3.0]

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

Quinoa is rammed with carbs...
I asked " What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?". The carb content of quinoa instantly means it's not a source of protein, but a source of carbs, with a little bit of protein on the side for good measure.
All of those vegs are lacking in protein (~30g per 100g) and the volume you would require is not realistic either. The protein to calorie ratio is far worse in veg as meat is almost 100% protein. That guy really doesn't look like a bodybuilder. I'm talking guys who are 15+ stone of muscle; that guy isn't even 14 stone.
If we are omnivores then we should eat meat...We can move our jaws left and right but now go and chew like a cow. It doesn't work as our teeth are designed to work vertically. Why should we eat minuscule amounts of meat when both fat and carbs turn into fat? Unless you want an obesity epidemic, or reduce the RDA, something has to change.
As I said the grain surplus is due to law, not cattle. As for those shipping trucks, it's better then harvesters, that's for sure, as insulation can help out whereas moving tons of metal is always going to be demanding.

I'm sorry, you've left the realm of facts and reason.

If it has protein in it, it is a source of protein.

Meat is not 100% protein. In the best cases, it's closer to 30% - http://www.livestrong.com/article/535346-the-protein-content-in-chicken/


The protein to calorie ratio can be very good in vegetables and they do not contain cholesterol, like all meat does. I showed you one article about vegan muscle builders--just one--to show that it is possible to build and sustain muscle without meat protein. Regardless, there is no practical reason to be 15+ stone. As I have written over and over, I agree that an ideal diet for omnivores includes a small amount of meat. Vegan and Vegetarians would rather not take part in an industry and culture they are deeply opposed to--instead supplementing and finding other sources of protein rather than contribute to the mass factory farming of livestock. There is already an obesity epidemic and it's not because people aren't eating enough meat. Shipping trucks are not better than harvesters.

If I'm going to have 200g of protein a day, how much veg do I need to eat?
By 100% I meant that meat gives you just protein, and nothing else, per 100g. Veg gives you carbs, meaning a diet with 200g+ of protein gets quickly overtaken by a load of carbs, not to mention the sheer volume of veg needed.
Why are you telling me that I've "left the realm of facts and reason" when your suggestions are ludicrous.
Shipping trucks are better then harvesters - generally x2 the mpg if not more.

Meat provides you with more then just protein there buddy it also contains very useful vitamins and minerals as well as fat.

Edit: Furthermore Shipping trucks operate for long periods of time then harvesters. Plus you still needs a harvester to harvest the corn and grain you feed to your livestock before you ship them. honestly I am not sure what you are trying to imply with this line of thought.

 

[darlarosa]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Why should any one care what another person thinks they think. You can feel, think, and act however YOU want. I love animals. I love watching the animals frolick and I respectfully gorge myself on them at meals. I compartmentalize food from other things. Plants I grow for beauty, v.s plants I grow to market. It's like separating family from strangers. You love your family generally, but with strangers you are ambivalent about them. Same thing. I have animals I see in a cuddly cute friend way and animals that are for meat.

Food is food.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

It seem to me that you only see in extremes, as there doesn't appear to be any middle ground, with you. Yes commercial produced chicken are not treated well. That however doesn't mean that it is impossible to get eggs from a chicken without caging it up. I know quite a few people that keep chicken for eggs and let them roam about at their leisure. These people might also have a cold fusion reactor in their basements I suppose or maybe they have magic chickens or maybe just maybe you can keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up.

No I do not buy canned lentils. In fact I do not buy a large amount of canned food generally because of sodium content and the fact that typically it is cheaper to make most canned stuffs if you know how and care to, and by doing so I know exactly what went in to it. I use dried in regard to beans and things of that nature. Lentils I just haven't found appealing when I have made them. If you want to provide me with a recipe for good lentils I will try it out. I really want to like lentils as the are super cheap and super healthy, just haven't had much luck with them.

I never implied that that anyone needed to Hawk eye their diets, but they do need to care about them. The fast food industry is enormous simply because people don't care. The fact that the majority of a supermarket is filled with processed food and "boxed" dinners is disturbing. Seriously go to a supermarket and look most of the food they sell there is barely food. That is the problem. If people even paid half as much attention to what they were eating as the lest uptight vegan our national health would improve.

I feel like you're talking over my posts quite a bit. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally or if you skipped over it, but at any rate I did specifically mention grocery stores and restaurants as well as the egg industry in my last post. Backyard animals are problematic for other reasons, but I'll concede it's not as intrinsically appalling in the same sense. That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that when you talk about these other people who get eggs from animals in their care you're not talking about the eggs you (or the vast, vast majority of people in your country) consume, which means my concerns about the wellbeing of egg laying hens are valid.

As for the lentils, I don't do anything terribly special with them. I'll add them to soups, pasta dishes, curries, or stir fry. Do you have the same issue with peas or beans? I find that, by themselves, they're fairly neutral.

If you didn't mean to imply that vegans had to be super-extra careful about their diets or we'd die of malnutrition or some dross, fine. I've heard some outlandish comments about vegans from people who've only heard about vegans or only know total health-nut vegans, and there's also a lot of misinformation floating around. I'm not a vegan for the health bennies, and I've made no special claims about vegan diets or health, aside from the fact that it can be healthy. And yeah, if people didn't think that $5 for 4-liters of Pepsi was a better deal than spending that money on an occasional vegetable, there'd be less unhealthy people in whichever nation you live in.

If you're really looking to split hairs, you'll find hairs to split, but I'm not going to keep rescue chickens or whatever in my apartment to avoid eating tempeh. (Nor would I be entirely comfortable with that.)

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?

 

[RoBi3.0]

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

Quinoa is rammed with carbs...
I asked " What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?". The carb content of quinoa instantly means it's not a source of protein, but a source of carbs, with a little bit of protein on the side for good measure.
All of those vegs are lacking in protein (~30g per 100g) and the volume you would require is not realistic either. The protein to calorie ratio is far worse in veg as meat is almost 100% protein. That guy really doesn't look like a bodybuilder. I'm talking guys who are 15+ stone of muscle; that guy isn't even 14 stone.
If we are omnivores then we should eat meat...We can move our jaws left and right but now go and chew like a cow. It doesn't work as our teeth are designed to work vertically. Why should we eat minuscule amounts of meat when both fat and carbs turn into fat? Unless you want an obesity epidemic, or reduce the RDA, something has to change.
As I said the grain surplus is due to law, not cattle. As for those shipping trucks, it's better then harvesters, that's for sure, as insulation can help out whereas moving tons of metal is always going to be demanding.

I'm sorry, you've left the realm of facts and reason.

If it has protein in it, it is a source of protein.

Meat is not 100% protein. In the best cases, it's closer to 30% - http://www.livestrong.com/article/535346-the-protein-content-in-chicken/


The protein to calorie ratio can be very good in vegetables and they do not contain cholesterol, like all meat does. I showed you one article about vegan muscle builders--just one--to show that it is possible to build and sustain muscle without meat protein. Regardless, there is no practical reason to be 15+ stone. As I have written over and over, I agree that an ideal diet for omnivores includes a small amount of meat. Vegan and Vegetarians would rather not take part in an industry and culture they are deeply opposed to--instead supplementing and finding other sources of protein rather than contribute to the mass factory farming of livestock. There is already an obesity epidemic and it's not because people aren't eating enough meat. Shipping trucks are not better than harvesters.

If I'm going to have 200g of protein a day, how much veg do I need to eat?
By 100% I meant that meat gives you just protein, and nothing else, per 100g. Veg gives you carbs, meaning a diet with 200g+ of protein gets quickly overtaken by a load of carbs, not to mention the sheer volume of veg needed.
Why are you telling me that I've "left the realm of facts and reason" when your suggestions are ludicrous.
Shipping trucks are better then harvesters - generally x2 the mpg if not more.

Meat provides you with more then just protein there buddy it also contains very useful vitamins and minerals as well as fat.

Edit: Furthermore Shipping trucks operate for long periods of time then harvesters. Plus you still needs a harvester to harvest the corn and grain you feed to your livestock before you ship them. honestly I am not sure what you are trying to imply with this line of thought.

More veg = more harvesters = more pollution. Shipping trucks will always be needed so they are a moot point. Just throwing the thought ball around really.

But less shipping trucks are better then more shipping trucks, yes?

Here is a brief run down on the cycle vegetables and beef go through on their way to the market.

Vegetables:
Planting with machines------> tending with machines--------> harvesting either with machines or without as some crops can't be machanically harvested--------> to market via trucks.

Beef:
Feed corn is planted with machines-------> feed corn is tended with machines-------> feed corn is harvested with machines---------> feed corn is transported to cows to eat via trucks---------> cows are tended-------> cows are transported to slaughterhouses via trucks--------> cows are slaughtered with machines-------> beef is transported to the market via trucks.

I hope you notice that the cycle for beef is basically one chain longer because it effective add a whole another step in the process of getting food to the consumers you could argue the first part of the beef step could be eliminated if the cows are grass feed and to that I would say you are 100% correct but that is a very rare occurrence now a days and I urge everyone to support such practices if it is with in your means.

And I am not pointing out that veggies are better I am simply point out that your arguement is based on poorly research information and faulty logic.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Beef:
Feed corn is planted with machines-------> feed corn is tended with machines-------> feed corn is harvested with machines---------> feed corn is transported to cows to eat via trucks---------> cows are tended-------> cows are transported to slaughterhouses via trucks--------> cows are slaughtered with machines-------> beef is transported to the market via trucks.

There's also the bit where they're not feeding the cows once, but throughout their entire development.

 

[RoBi3.0]

It seem to me that you only see in extremes, as there doesn't appear to be any middle ground, with you. Yes commercial produced chicken are not treated well. That however doesn't mean that it is impossible to get eggs from a chicken without caging it up. I know quite a few people that keep chicken for eggs and let them roam about at their leisure. These people might also have a cold fusion reactor in their basements I suppose or maybe they have magic chickens or maybe just maybe you can keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up.

No I do not buy canned lentils. In fact I do not buy a large amount of canned food generally because of sodium content and the fact that typically it is cheaper to make most canned stuffs if you know how and care to, and by doing so I know exactly what went in to it. I use dried in regard to beans and things of that nature. Lentils I just haven't found appealing when I have made them. If you want to provide me with a recipe for good lentils I will try it out. I really want to like lentils as the are super cheap and super healthy, just haven't had much luck with them.

I never implied that that anyone needed to Hawk eye their diets, but they do need to care about them. The fast food industry is enormous simply because people don't care. The fact that the majority of a supermarket is filled with processed food and "boxed" dinners is disturbing. Seriously go to a supermarket and look most of the food they sell there is barely food. That is the problem. If people even paid half as much attention to what they were eating as the lest uptight vegan our national health would improve.

I feel like you're talking over my posts quite a bit. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally or if you skipped over it, but at any rate I did specifically mention grocery stores and restaurants as well as the egg industry in my last post. Backyard animals are problematic for other reasons, but I'll concede it's not as intrinsically appalling in the same sense. That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that when you talk about these other people who get eggs from animals in their care you're not talking about the eggs you (or the vast, vast majority of people in your country) consume, which means my concerns about the wellbeing of egg laying hens are valid.

As for the lentils, I don't do anything terribly special with them. I'll add them to soups, pasta dishes, curries, or stir fry. Do you have the same issue with peas or beans? I find that, by themselves, they're fairly neutral.

If you didn't mean to imply that vegans had to be super-extra careful about their diets or we'd die of malnutrition or some dross, fine. I've heard some outlandish comments about vegans from people who've only heard about vegans or only know total health-nut vegans, and there's also a lot of misinformation floating around. I'm not a vegan for the health bennies, and I've made no special claims about vegan diets or health, aside from the fact that it can be healthy. And yeah, if people didn't think that $5 for 4-liters of Pepsi was a better deal than spending that money on an occasional vegetable, there'd be less unhealthy people in whichever nation you live in.

If you're really looking to split hairs, you'll find hairs to split, but I'm not going to keep rescue chickens or whatever in my apartment to avoid eating tempeh. (Nor would I be entirely comfortable with that.)

I am not over looking your points on purpose there is a lot of information being passed through this thread so it is hard to track it all. I was not trying to imply you should not have concern for commercial raised chickens if that is your thing, I was nearly pointing out that chicken can be better treated and still be used for eggs, through it does require a drastic downsizing of scale, and land in area where at kind of thing is allowed.

I can cook dried beans and peas very well so it might just be a lentil thing for me. I am not a fan go cooked broccoli either; do love to eat it raw though.

I wasn't trying to imply that Vegans had to be super careful either they do however have to know what they are eating. I am not certain that the average American cares. They only care that its fast and that as little effort possible is needed. America's fixation with red meat and processed food is definitely a hindrance.

I am American, that should probably explain it all. Lol and often times $5 for 4 liters of Pepsi is seen as a better to a lot of Americans. If that were the only problem we would be a hell of a lot better of then we actually are. It will be a long road to plow to change the mind set of a nation, if it is possible at all.

 

[BNguyen]

Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.

Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.

I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.

 

[Chris OBrien]

Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.

Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.

I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.

This may be true... if it happened instantaneously. But you're not really citing any facts or numbers. In a 2000 calorie diet, the daily intake of protein needed is easily obtained by eating a balanced, plant-based diet without additional effort*. It seems illogical to assume it would take significantly larger quantities of food to obtain proper nutrients--certainly no more than is already grown to breed, raise, and fatten all the livestock grown for food currently.

*http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/vegetarian-cooking/protein-sample-menus.php - these are some sample menus that show a balanced, vegetarian diet and the intake of nutrients. Another good resource - http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

And he's right. Your comparison was flawed. You should compare the cost of raising a cow to growing a garden. Aside from the cost, it will take years before the cow is edible. Most plants can be eaten within months of being planted.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.

Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.

I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.

As a vegan, you'd think I'd know from experience how much I need to eat. Medically speaking, humans don't need a lot of protein. If you want to go the route of least effort and cost, get fortified soymilk and some legumes and you've covered everything you'll get from meat.

I'd wager a guess that even with fancy tempeh and organic veggies my grocery bill will be a lot lower than yours.

Hell, if you want to save money: http://lifehacker.com/5271178/cook-for-good-plans-meals-for-less-than-two-dollars
No meat. Less than $2 a person per meal. Lots of the meals are vegan. All of them will meet nutritional requirements.

Eating meat isn't cheaper.

 

[Byere]

darn vegetarians... killing all those defenseless plants without a care in the world! All they wanted to do was give you oxygen! Was that so bad!?!?!

 

[Chris OBrien]

darn vegetarians... killing all those defenseless plants without a care in the world! All they wanted to do was give you oxygen! Was that so bad!?!?!

I hate oxygen.