"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"

[ThrobbingEgo]

"Funny. I don't know many overweight vegans."
Anecdotal and condescending.
What's your diet? Care to give me the caloric breakdown? Trendy weight loss? No, just watching what I eat and actually knowing what I eat rather then guessing.
How is it not sustainable?

You missed the part where I mentioned the Adventist Health Studies which measured the weight of vegan adventists on a large scale? I'm also not sure how that was condescending. Glib, maybe?

And dude, if you're getting most of your calories from meat, that's going to be unsustainable because you're using more resources than if you were getting calories from plants.

 

[Treblaine]

Yes you can.

You just love the animals you don't eat.

Cats = love

Lambs = eat

Humans = ambivilance

 

[dyre]

I care in a "that's rather distasteful (no pun intended)" sort of way, not in a "omg I'm offended" sort of way. Also, lentils taste like shit. I'd rather have tofu or eggs (you're not against eggs, are you?).

In the end, I only really have moral concern for human problems. I'm not saying vegetarians don't have a sound moral argument; it just doesn't have any internal appeal to me. Sort of like act utilitarianism sounds wonderful on paper, but in practice it is utterly unappealing and often disturbing.

You know what would be kind of funny though? If in a few decades or so, only-humans-matter attitudes no longer exist, and the word "humanist" takes on the same sort of connotation as "racist" does today

In most cases, it'd probably be less cruel to cut to the chase and eat chickens instead of confining them for their eggs. It's truly gruesome stuff.

Luckily you have a world of other options: avocado, seitan, tempeh, tofu, and a fucking rainbow of legumes. Lentils aren't compulsory, though I'm puzzled that you don't like them.

As for the utilitarian bit, how's being a vegan disturbing? I don't use animal products and... there isn't a ethical downside here. It's not like I'm letting a baby drown so I can sell my expensive suit (instead of ruining it while rescuing the drowning baby) in order to save more babies.

Ok, but I already eat avocado and tofu...it's just that having some grilled chicken or sweet and sour pork too is really...appealing >_>

I haven't heard of seitan and tempeh, but google images makes it look like some kind of vegetable-made meat substitute, which already makes me not want to eat it, lol. I'll try it sometime though, and I promise you, if it tastes better than steak, I'll cut down my animal consumption by 50%.

Sorry, I didn't mean the disturbing bit about vegetarians (utilitarians are disturbing, but not vegetarians). I mean, in some scenarios the utilitarian answer seems "right," but I still wouldn't do it. As in, I just don't care enough about other people (relative to how much I care about myself) to give away all my discretionary income. It probably makes me a bad person, but hey, I live on a planet in which 100% of people are bad, so w/e.

 

[Chris OBrien]

Hmm, it seems like a fair thing to say you can't love something you'd have someone kill for you to eat for dinner. Doesn't mean you can't love some animals, but I'd say I don't see how it works for you to say you love animals in general. If you'd have chickens killed for you just so you can enjoy their flesh I don't think it'd be fair to say you love chickens. (Also the chicken cooking in my house smells good and is making me hungry...)

Well, on the other hand you can't love nature if you've ever eaten plants.
So this makes for an absolutely reasonable argument.

Not particularly comparable given the nature of plants vs that of animals. Plus of course that loving nature is different than just loving plants.

You eat animals for the nutrition they provide - "love" does not come into it. You eat meat for a balanced diet and as long as the animals are treated humanely, then what's the issue? Denying the nature of man and nutritional requirements just isn't realistic.

Why bother posting such drivel? Next time don't make stupid assumptions and save us both time. I did not say there was an issue. Nor did I suggest denying any sort of nutritional requirement. The reason I mention love is because anyone who has actually bothered to read what thread they're in might notice that it's what the thread is about. And I am saying it indicates a lack of love to be cool with killing those animals. But I didn't say people had to love animals.

Jees chill out, what's wrong with people here...
All you have done is insult what I said, and then repeat what you said without addressing anything I said. I said love does not come into the equation as meeting nutritional requirements has nothing to do with love therefore you can love chickens but still eat them as the latter part is a necessity. I didn't say people had to love animals either...

Maybe it's worth thinking about the question a little differently. Is it possible to love all animals, or love animals in general and also eat animals? Not love the way they taste or love them for the sustenance they provide, but truly care for, respect, and feel genuine concern for the well-being of all animals and also consume them?

Can you love something and also want it to die? Can you love something you need to consume to survive? Can you love something that you do not treat as an equal?

It has been scientifically proven and accepted that human beings do not need to eat animals to--not just survive, but thrive. The USDA and other respected agencies have stated that vegan diets are adequate at all stages of life for males and females and in many cases, provide significant health benefits. Therefore, eating a chicken is not a necessity, it is a choice.

Can you still love chickens then?

Humans are clearly predators - eye location, teeth and nails. Comparing humans to herbivores shows a failure in understanding science.

Anyone saying human teeth are herbivore teeth is talking pseudo-science.
Carnivores, and humans, have sharp cusps with conical roots as carnivores are vertical chewers and herbivores chew side-to-side (think how a cow chews). If a herbivore ate vertically, it'd break it's teeth. Sadly, just like flat earthers and conspiracy theorists, there is a lot of bullshit floating around out there to argue against the true genuine science.

Lots animals that aren't predators have eyes in front. And some that are have eyes on the side (sharks). Early humans ate a variety of food, gathering most of what they ate--not hunting. And human nails...? They don't seem particularly useful for trapping and killing fast prey. Also, humans chew both vertically and horizontally, like an herbivore. If they could only move their jaw side to side, their mouths wouldn't open.

We most closely resemble which wild animals? Apes maybe? They eat a mostly plant diet.

You're right, comparative anatomy doesn't tell us much. I was just pointing out that humans are anything but carnivores. And as humans are biologically omnivores, it is as reasonable to compare humans to herbivores as it is to compare humans to carnivores... which you've just done in the exact same way I did.

Protein and creatin. Eating them from soya is unrealistic for three reasons:
1)Creatin is meat-only.
2)The carb content of meat is low in contrast to soya, meaning meat is better for a balanced diet.
3)There is not enough land to feed everyone on non-meat products, not to mention the CO2 produced by such a vast amount of plants. I know cattle produce a lot of CO2 and methane, but beef isn't the only animal. This is just speculation but nevertheless a worthwhile potential issue to mention.

1) Creatin, if it shows up short in bloodwork, is easy to supplement and almost half of what humans need is produced by their own bodies.
2) Soy is not the only reliable source of protein from plants. Even if it were, your statement is only true in terms of a weight-loss program.
3) The first part is not accurate and if the second part were true, cutting down the rainforest would be a good thing for global warming.

Soy or soya is not the only "meat substitute." An ideal omnivore human diet requires very little meat, but requires a great deal of variety in foods--none of it processed. Anyway, most vegans and vegetarians are not following their diets only for health reasons. It is largely about not taking part in an industry that maintains many practices they find upsetting, disturbing, and wrong.

The best thing you can do for your body and the environment with your diet, veggie or not, is eat as many locally grown, in-season foods as possible.

Loving all animals specifically is ridiculous as no one has met them all and you would never say "i love all humans".
You can care & respect them as well as consuming them - it's about being accepting of our place in the food chain. I would like all cattle to have a good upbringing and so on and see no need for mindless suffering even if it costs me a little more in money. Is it out of guilt? No, but out of respect and I would like there to be better ways to kill the animals to be honest.

It's not about wanting an animal to die, it's about realising it needs to die and that is nature. Fighting nature at this moment in time is pointless. If there were cheaper, better sources of protein then yes, I personally would not eat meat, or certainly eat less, but currently there is no such thing. Vegan diets are low in protein and pretty crappy. If you want to get into shape (read not ripped, but also big), good luck.
Sharks are aquatic so don't compare them to land dwelling predators. Humans are born carnivores and to deny that is to deny reality. What humans eats horizontally? Rednecks? I've never seen someone eat like a cow...Herbivores cannot eat vertically and humans are designed to do so. Those are facts and they clearly point to humans being designed to eat meat so either you accept that or drop the point if we aren't going to agree on reality.

~45% isn't 100% and supplementation also surely shows how unnatural a vegetarian diet is? What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?
Actually trees are not a solution to CO2 as when they die their CO2 is released back into the atmosphere. O2 is increased but CO2 isn't permanently reduced. Also what's the mpg of a combine harvester?

I would also add eat as much truly organic meat as possible. Watch Food Inc - very interesting and eye opening whilst showing that eating meat doesn't have to be barbaric or immoral.

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Ok, but I already eat avocado and tofu...it's just that having some grilled chicken or sweet and sour pork too is really...appealing >_>

I haven't heard of seitan and tempeh, but google images makes it look like some kind of vegetable-made meat substitute, which already makes me not want to eat it, lol. I'll try it sometime though, and I promise you, if it tastes better than steak, I'll cut down my animal consumption by 50%.

Sorry, I didn't mean the disturbing bit about vegetarians (utilitarians are disturbing, but not vegetarians). I mean, in some scenarios the utilitarian answer seems "right," but I still wouldn't do it. As in, I just don't care enough about other people (relative to how much I care about myself) to give away all my discretionary income. It probably makes me a bad person, but hey, I live on a planet in which 100% of people are bad, so w/e.

I don't see tempeh, tofu, or seitan as meat substitutes, despite the fact that they're often marketed as such. Culinarily speaking, it's better to look at them as distinct foods in their own right, instead of an attempt to replicate something they're not.

In answering your comments about tempeh and tofu, tempeh's from India, made of beans (often, but not always soy) that has more texture to it than tofu. Seitan's pure wheat protein, often marketed as a substitute for chicken.

As for being a bad person, there is a difference between actions and people. However, the way I see it is 'why do something you don't support if you can do something else?' I know I ultimately can't bargain with myself on what I understand to be right.

Anyway, I don't think I can convince you to become vegan, this isn't really an attempt at it, but it's cool to have a dialog on the internet about it without one of us attempting to burn the other at a steak.

 

[RoBi3.0]

I care in a "that's rather distasteful (no pun intended)" sort of way, not in a "omg I'm offended" sort of way. Also, lentils taste like shit. I'd rather have tofu or eggs (you're not against eggs, are you?).

In the end, I only really have moral concern for human problems. I'm not saying vegetarians don't have a sound moral argument; it just doesn't have any internal appeal to me. Sort of like act utilitarianism sounds wonderful on paper, but in practice it is utterly unappealing and often disturbing.

You know what would be kind of funny though? If in a few decades or so, only-humans-matter attitudes no longer exist, and the word "humanist" takes on the same sort of connotation as "racist" does today

In most cases, it'd probably be less cruel to cut to the chase and eat chickens instead of confining them for their eggs. It's truly gruesome stuff.

Luckily you have a world of other options: avocado, seitan, tempeh, tofu, and a fucking rainbow of legumes. Lentils aren't compulsory, though I'm puzzled that you don't like them.

As for the utilitarian bit, how's being a vegan disturbing? I don't use animal products and... there isn't a ethical downside here. It's not like I'm letting a baby drown so I can sell my expensive suit (instead of ruining it while rescuing the drowning baby) in order to save more babies.

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

 

[Chris OBrien]

I care in a "that's rather distasteful (no pun intended)" sort of way, not in a "omg I'm offended" sort of way. Also, lentils taste like shit. I'd rather have tofu or eggs (you're not against eggs, are you?).

In the end, I only really have moral concern for human problems. I'm not saying vegetarians don't have a sound moral argument; it just doesn't have any internal appeal to me. Sort of like act utilitarianism sounds wonderful on paper, but in practice it is utterly unappealing and often disturbing.

You know what would be kind of funny though? If in a few decades or so, only-humans-matter attitudes no longer exist, and the word "humanist" takes on the same sort of connotation as "racist" does today

In most cases, it'd probably be less cruel to cut to the chase and eat chickens instead of confining them for their eggs. It's truly gruesome stuff.

Luckily you have a world of other options: avocado, seitan, tempeh, tofu, and a fucking rainbow of legumes. Lentils aren't compulsory, though I'm puzzled that you don't like them.

As for the utilitarian bit, how's being a vegan disturbing? I don't use animal products and... there isn't a ethical downside here. It's not like I'm letting a baby drown so I can sell my expensive suit (instead of ruining it while rescuing the drowning baby) in order to save more babies.

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

You are probably the most reasonable, well-informed person I've seen post. Thanks for speaking up.

 

[Spartan Altego]

I love animals. But you know what I love about a good amount of them?

They taste great.

 

[RoBi3.0]

I care in a "that's rather distasteful (no pun intended)" sort of way, not in a "omg I'm offended" sort of way. Also, lentils taste like shit. I'd rather have tofu or eggs (you're not against eggs, are you?).

In the end, I only really have moral concern for human problems. I'm not saying vegetarians don't have a sound moral argument; it just doesn't have any internal appeal to me. Sort of like act utilitarianism sounds wonderful on paper, but in practice it is utterly unappealing and often disturbing.

You know what would be kind of funny though? If in a few decades or so, only-humans-matter attitudes no longer exist, and the word "humanist" takes on the same sort of connotation as "racist" does today

In most cases, it'd probably be less cruel to cut to the chase and eat chickens instead of confining them for their eggs. It's truly gruesome stuff.

Luckily you have a world of other options: avocado, seitan, tempeh, tofu, and a fucking rainbow of legumes. Lentils aren't compulsory, though I'm puzzled that you don't like them.

As for the utilitarian bit, how's being a vegan disturbing? I don't use animal products and... there isn't a ethical downside here. It's not like I'm letting a baby drown so I can sell my expensive suit (instead of ruining it while rescuing the drowning baby) in order to save more babies.

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

You are probably the most reasonable, well-informed person I've seen post. Thanks for speaking up.

Thanks

 

[Chris OBrien]

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

Quinoa is rammed with carbs...
I asked " What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?". The carb content of quinoa instantly means it's not a source of protein, but a source of carbs, with a little bit of protein on the side for good measure.
All of those vegs are lacking in protein (~30g per 100g) and the volume you would require is not realistic either. The protein to calorie ratio is far worse in veg as meat is almost 100% protein. That guy really doesn't look like a bodybuilder. I'm talking guys who are 15+ stone of muscle; that guy isn't even 14 stone.
If we are omnivores then we should eat meat...We can move our jaws left and right but now go and chew like a cow. It doesn't work as our teeth are designed to work vertically. Why should we eat minuscule amounts of meat when both fat and carbs turn into fat? Unless you want an obesity epidemic, or reduce the RDA, something has to change.
As I said the grain surplus is due to law, not cattle. As for those shipping trucks, it's better then harvesters, that's for sure, as insulation can help out whereas moving tons of metal is always going to be demanding.

I'm sorry, you've left the realm of facts and reason.

If it has protein in it, it is a source of protein.

Meat is not 100% protein. In the best cases, it's closer to 30% - http://www.livestrong.com/article/535346-the-protein-content-in-chicken/


The protein to calorie ratio can be very good in vegetables and they do not contain cholesterol, like all meat does. I showed you one article about vegan muscle builders--just one--to show that it is possible to build and sustain muscle without meat protein. Regardless, there is no practical reason to be 15+ stone. As I have written over and over, I agree that an ideal diet for omnivores includes a small amount of meat. Vegan and Vegetarians would rather not take part in an industry and culture they are deeply opposed to--instead supplementing and finding other sources of protein rather than contribute to the mass factory farming of livestock. There is already an obesity epidemic and it's not because people aren't eating enough meat. Shipping trucks are not better than harvesters.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

'Possible' like cold fusion is possible, sure. If you're buying eggs at a grocery store or a restaurant, what you're describing doesn't happen. Yes, even if the label says 'cage free'. It's little more than technicalities and marketing. Plus there's the inherent issue of 'spent' animals that are slaughtered when they're not longer profitable, culled males, overcrowding and unsanitary conditions. Fact is, the egg industry isn't humane.

I never claimed that being vegan was the 'most optimal' diet; despite what fad diets will tell you I don't think there is one. I didn't become vegan for health reasons. But is it inherently unhealthy? No. I'm vegan. I understand what I'm eating and eat a variety of vegetables, grains and legumes, but I'm not spreadsheeting my diet like it's a weightwatcher's plan or something. I'm also pretty damn healthy, quite inadvertently.

Also, I'm not sure what you're doing to fuck up lentils that badly. Are you buying dried or canned? It's possible if you're buying a particularly bad canned brand you'll wind up with a metallic taste. I've never heard a complaint about lentils ever until today. (Then again, I hear people complain about the taste of broccoli and wholewheat bread.) Anyway, as I said, it's not your only fucking option.

 

[Bocaj2000]

>Sees out of context statement about a vegetarian's opinion of Facebook
>Jimmies get rustled
>Post about how much love meat, specifically bacon for some reason, in retaliation to the anonymous vegetarian whom don't even know.

>Someone claims to be a vegetarian/vegan
>Get offended at someone else's lifestyle
>Make assumptions about stranger and argue

 

[dyre]

Ok, but I already eat avocado and tofu...it's just that having some grilled chicken or sweet and sour pork too is really...appealing >_>

I haven't heard of seitan and tempeh, but google images makes it look like some kind of vegetable-made meat substitute, which already makes me not want to eat it, lol. I'll try it sometime though, and I promise you, if it tastes better than steak, I'll cut down my animal consumption by 50%.

Sorry, I didn't mean the disturbing bit about vegetarians (utilitarians are disturbing, but not vegetarians). I mean, in some scenarios the utilitarian answer seems "right," but I still wouldn't do it. As in, I just don't care enough about other people (relative to how much I care about myself) to give away all my discretionary income. It probably makes me a bad person, but hey, I live on a planet in which 100% of people are bad, so w/e.

I don't see tempeh, tofu, or seitan as meat substitutes, despite the fact that they're often marketed as such. Culinarily speaking, it's better to look at them as distinct foods in their own right, instead of an attempt to replicate something they're not.

In answering your comments about tempeh and tofu, tempeh's from India, made of beans (often, but not always soy) that has more texture to it than tofu. Seitan's pure wheat protein, often marketed as a substitute for chicken.

As for being a bad person, there is a difference between actions and people. However, the way I see it is 'why do something you don't support if you can do something else?' I know I ultimately can't bargain with myself on what I understand to be right.

Anyway, I don't think I can convince you to become vegan, this isn't really an attempt at it, but it's cool to have a dialog on the internet about it without one of us attempting to burn the other at a steak.

heh, I see what you did there...

I used to think like that (not specifically about veganism, just in general), but then I realized that for almost everything I consume - that is, that I purchase as a consumer, not necessarily eat/digest/etc - from shoes to chocolate, people somewhere down the supply chain are working in horrible conditions and suffering with no end in sight so that "1st World" consumers like me can live comfortably. It wasn't really a sudden realization, just that as I slowly learned more about the world outside just the "feel good" stuff like CNN or docudramas about certain industries, it just eventually seemed completely hopeless to really live that set of morals. I'm probably not even aware about 95% of the horribly stuff I indirectly support.

Nowadays I just try to avoid inflicting direct harm on others (humans, that is. I can't even bring myself to care about animals much). And of course I'll "promote awareness" on problems I feel particularly interested in, but I don't try to pretend that I'm really making a difference, or even living in way that doesn't indirectly contribute to the misery of others.

I'm not trying to say your worldview is naive or impossible, btw. I'm just trying to explain why I'm personally disillusioned about being a...I guess I'll call it a "righteous consumer," haha.

 

[RoBi3.0]

You know it is entirely possible to keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up right?

Furthermore lentils do taste like shit, sorry but that is the truth.

Also rather then quote you twice I will just comment on you Adventist study of Vegan. Yes, Vegans are not over weight, typically, and are in reasonable better health then the average American. This does not indicate that Vegan-ism is the most healthy lifestyle in existence. All it does is showcase how terribly shitty the average America diet really is.

Vegans tend to watch their diets very carefully and also tend to stay away for most processed foods. If meat eating individuals payed as much attention to their diets, they would experiences similar results. That is a guarantee.

'Possible' like cold fusion is possible, sure. If you're buying eggs at a grocery store or a restaurant, what you're describing doesn't happen. Yes, even if the label says 'cage free'. It's little more than technicalities and marketing. Plus there's the inherent issue of 'spent' animals that are slaughtered when they're not longer profitable, culled males, overcrowding and unsanitary conditions. Fact is, the egg industry isn't humane.

I never claimed that being vegan was the 'most optimal' diet; despite what fad diets will tell you I don't think there is one. I didn't become vegan for health reasons. But is it inherently unhealthy? No. I'm vegan. I understand what I'm eating and eat a variety of vegetables, grains and legumes, but I'm not spreadsheeting my diet like it's a weightwatcher's plan or something. I'm also pretty damn healthy, quite inadvertently.

Also, I'm not sure what you're doing to fuck up lentils that badly. Are you buying dried or canned? It's possible if you're buying a particularly bad canned brand you'll wind up with a metallic taste. I've never heard a complaint about lentils ever until today. (Then again, I hear people complain about the taste of broccoli and wholewheat bread.) Anyway, as I said, it's not your only fucking option.

It seem to me that you only see in extremes, as there doesn't appear to be any middle ground, with you. Yes commercial produced chicken are not treated well. That however doesn't mean that it is impossible to get eggs from a chicken without caging it up. I know quite a few people that keep chicken for eggs and let them roam about at their leisure. These people might also have a cold fusion reactor in their basements I suppose or maybe they have magic chickens or maybe just maybe you can keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up.

No I do not buy canned lentils. In fact I do not buy a large amount of canned food generally because of sodium content and the fact that typically it is cheaper to make most canned stuffs if you know how and care to, and by doing so I know exactly what went in to it. I use dried in regard to beans and things of that nature. Lentils I just haven't found appealing when I have made them. If you want to provide me with a recipe for good lentils I will try it out. I really want to like lentils as the are super cheap and super healthy, just haven't had much luck with them.

I never implied that that anyone needed to Hawk eye their diets, but they do need to care about them. The fast food industry is enormous simply because people don't care. The fact that the majority of a supermarket is filled with processed food and "boxed" dinners is disturbing. Seriously go to a supermarket and look most of the food they sell there is barely food. That is the problem. If people even paid half as much attention to what they were eating as the lest uptight vegan our national health would improve.

 

[RoBi3.0]

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

Quinoa is rammed with carbs...
I asked " What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?". The carb content of quinoa instantly means it's not a source of protein, but a source of carbs, with a little bit of protein on the side for good measure.
All of those vegs are lacking in protein (~30g per 100g) and the volume you would require is not realistic either. The protein to calorie ratio is far worse in veg as meat is almost 100% protein. That guy really doesn't look like a bodybuilder. I'm talking guys who are 15+ stone of muscle; that guy isn't even 14 stone.
If we are omnivores then we should eat meat...We can move our jaws left and right but now go and chew like a cow. It doesn't work as our teeth are designed to work vertically. Why should we eat minuscule amounts of meat when both fat and carbs turn into fat? Unless you want an obesity epidemic, or reduce the RDA, something has to change.
As I said the grain surplus is due to law, not cattle. As for those shipping trucks, it's better then harvesters, that's for sure, as insulation can help out whereas moving tons of metal is always going to be demanding.

I'm sorry, you've left the realm of facts and reason.

If it has protein in it, it is a source of protein.

Meat is not 100% protein. In the best cases, it's closer to 30% - http://www.livestrong.com/article/535346-the-protein-content-in-chicken/


The protein to calorie ratio can be very good in vegetables and they do not contain cholesterol, like all meat does. I showed you one article about vegan muscle builders--just one--to show that it is possible to build and sustain muscle without meat protein. Regardless, there is no practical reason to be 15+ stone. As I have written over and over, I agree that an ideal diet for omnivores includes a small amount of meat. Vegan and Vegetarians would rather not take part in an industry and culture they are deeply opposed to--instead supplementing and finding other sources of protein rather than contribute to the mass factory farming of livestock. There is already an obesity epidemic and it's not because people aren't eating enough meat. Shipping trucks are not better than harvesters.

If I'm going to have 200g of protein a day, how much veg do I need to eat?
By 100% I meant that meat gives you just protein, and nothing else, per 100g. Veg gives you carbs, meaning a diet with 200g+ of protein gets quickly overtaken by a load of carbs, not to mention the sheer volume of veg needed.
Why are you telling me that I've "left the realm of facts and reason" when your suggestions are ludicrous.
Shipping trucks are better then harvesters - generally x2 the mpg if not more.

Meat provides you with more then just protein there buddy it also contains very useful vitamins and minerals as well as fat.

Edit: Furthermore Shipping trucks operate for long periods of time then harvesters. Plus you still needs a harvester to harvest the corn and grain you feed to your livestock before you ship them. honestly I am not sure what you are trying to imply with this line of thought.

 

[darlarosa]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Why should any one care what another person thinks they think. You can feel, think, and act however YOU want. I love animals. I love watching the animals frolick and I respectfully gorge myself on them at meals. I compartmentalize food from other things. Plants I grow for beauty, v.s plants I grow to market. It's like separating family from strangers. You love your family generally, but with strangers you are ambivalent about them. Same thing. I have animals I see in a cuddly cute friend way and animals that are for meat.

Food is food.