Young South Korean Men Revolt Against Feminism in South Korea

Terminal Blue

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I would say "having some idea you might want to sleep with someone at some point" and "finding someone immediately attractive" are quite different things.
Not everyone finds that "fun". Aromantics deserve as much recognition as asexuals.
If you're not capable of enjoying someone else's company, why are you dating?

I am demiromantic at best, and I suspect at this point I might be aromantic. I haven't had a monogamous romantic relationship since my teens. I'm not talking about romantic love, and I think anyone who professes romantic love to someone they're in the early stages of dating is kind of a big red flag anyway. Being aromantic doesn't mean you can't like people, or can't enjoy their company. It doesn't even mean that you can't love someone because there are more kinds of love than romantic love.

If your aromanticism manifests as an inability to view people as anything other than sexual prospects, then own that, and let people make informed choices about whether they can live with a relationship based only on their capacity to provide sexual release. We're literally talking about this idea that going on dates with people you don't intend to sleep with is manipulation, but going on dates with people you don't actually like and don't want to date and putting up with it so you can maybe trick them into sleeping with you seems way, way more manipulative.

And if you're talking about recognition, what you're describing is closeting. You don't get recognition for being closeted. Doing things you don't want to do because you want to convince other people you're someone you're not isn't something deserving of recognition. If someone can't admit who they are and just be happy with who they are, what recognition can they recieve?

Only some extrovert writes stuff like this.
I have ADHD. I have such intense emotions that being around other people is literally painful. People are overwhelming, and the more I like them the more overwhelming they become. If you want to talk about being an extrovert in terms of whether you get "energy" from other people, then I'm not an extrovert. Being around other people is the most exhausting experience. Don't even get me started on the experience of actually getting hurt and rejection sensitive dysphoria.

What I'm talking about is social motivation, and I get it. I've gone through periods of my life of not having any social motivation, but in retrospect I always end up regretting them and looking back fondly on the times when I was meeting new people and making new friends and having new experiences. At the end of the day, other people make life interesting, and they make life unpredictable and novel and exciting in a way that nothing else does, because nothing else can substitute for the unpredictability of another person.

If you disagree, then fine. Noone is forcing you to date. But if you are going to date, why not enjoy it? Sure, maybe it's scary and maybe it's awkward, but at least it's exciting. That stage of meeting someone new and not yet knowing who they're going to be or where it's going to go is something you never get back.
 
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Silvanus

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You're pushing back a little too hard. Regardless of what you personally feel, "I like free dinner" is not a motivation that makes zero sense.
"I like free dinner, to the point where I'm happy to painstakingly awkwardly make small-talk with a complete stranger for a few hours, and/or possibly put myself in danger".
 

Kwak

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You're pushing back a little too hard. Regardless of what you personally feel, "I like free dinner" is not a motivation that makes zero sense.
"I'm willing to spend a couple of hours with someone I loathe to get it" does.
 

Casual Shinji

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"I like free dinner, to the point where I'm happy to painstakingly awkwardly make small-talk with a complete stranger for a few hours, and/or possibly put myself in danger".
Women be shopping, and women be free dining man.
 

tstorm823

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"I like free dinner, to the point where I'm happy to painstakingly awkwardly make small-talk with a complete stranger for a few hours, and/or possibly put myself in danger".
That is a pretty negative description of "a date", you get that right?
 

tstorm823

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If they are actually enjoying the date then they're not just there for a free dinner.
That's neither true nor important. A person enjoy something while not being there for that enjoyment, e.g. lots of people enjoy their jobs. But also a person can enjoy a date while also not even entertaining the possibility of a further relationship afterwards.
 

Silvanus

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That is a pretty negative description of "a date", you get that right?
Indeed. But Dreiko would have us believe a significant number of "dates" aren't dates all, but rather a malicious con. That description would fit the ridiculous scenario he's trying to sell.

That's neither true nor important. A person enjoy something while not being there for that enjoyment, e.g. lots of people enjoy their jobs. But also a person can enjoy a date while also not even entertaining the possibility of a further relationship afterwards.
According to Dreiko, its only legitimately a "date" if it involves a non-zero likelihood of sex. So the woman isn't allowed to be motivated by merely enjoying the time spent with someone; to do so would, according to him, be manipulative unless they were considering sex.
 

Agema

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According to Dreiko, its only legitimately a "date" if it involves a non-zero likelihood of sex. So the woman isn't allowed to be motivated by merely enjoying the time spent with someone; to do so would, according to him, be manipulative unless they were considering sex.
I was under the general idea that a date was as often as not one of several occasions where you might have to spend pleasant time with another person before they'd let you into their underwear.

Kids today have no patience.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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I think dating is in broad terms "courtship", or the modern equivalent. So it is implied but not said in order to be classy, that there is always a possibility of sex. Not a promise, of course, but a non-0% possibility. So while you're obviously not entitled to sex, if someone already has ruled you out entirely before agreeing to be courted by you, they indeed ARE manipulating you by behaving as though you have a chance with them. An honest person would refuse a date and instead ask to hang out as friends when the offer comes up if they're not into someone.
This is approaching Scott "women should be 'nice' to men" Adams levels.
 
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Dreiko

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We're literally talking about this idea that going on dates with people you don't intend to sleep with is manipulation, but going on dates with people you don't actually like and don't want to date and putting up with it so you can maybe trick them into sleeping with you seems way, way more manipulative.
Yeah see, I love how you put this because that is the core of the disagreement here.

In my mind the sleeping with me bit is the reward, in and of itself. It's not something you're tricked into, it's something you are bequeathed. Not something which is a deficit but a boon to your being. You are not losing anything from it, you only gain. This is how I approach the situation, so when my good graces are wasted on someone who is just hungry and broke/cheap then that's clearly not very honest and forthright.


Also, you're somehow making this weird assumption that you have to like someone to wanna sleep with them, which is super weird in and of itself. Ever hear of a hatefuck? You don't need to know anything about someone to know you wanna sleep with them. Now, dating them, sure, being their friend, sure, and sometimes you start wanting to sleep with someone with whom you were friends only at first, all that stuff is also possible, but none of it is a prerequisite.


Yeah basically what we have here is different folks value different aspects differently. Thing is only one group is trying to call the things they dislike manipulation, and when I use their logic for something on my end everyone sounds bemused and is full of incredulity.

I share that sentiment, only I'd apply it much, much more broadly.
 

Cheetodust

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Yeah see, I love how you put this because that is the core of the disagreement here.

In my mind the sleeping with me bit is the reward, in and of itself. It's not something you're tricked into, it's something you are bequeathed. Not something which is a deficit but a boon to your being. You are not losing anything from it, you only gain. This is how I approach the situation, so when my good graces are wasted on someone who is just hungry and broke/cheap then that's clearly not very honest and forthright.


Also, you're somehow making this weird assumption that you have to like someone to wanna sleep with them, which is super weird in and of itself. Ever hear of a hatefuck? You don't need to know anything about someone to know you wanna sleep with them. Now, dating them, sure, being their friend, sure, and sometimes you start wanting to sleep with someone with whom you were friends only at first, all that stuff is also possible, but none of it is a prerequisite.


Yeah basically what we have here is different folks value different aspects differently. Thing is only one group is trying to call the things they dislike manipulation, and when I use their logic for something on my end everyone sounds bemused and is full of incredulity.

I share that sentiment, only I'd apply it much, much more broadly.
Literally cannot begin to express how fucking weird all of that is.
 
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Casual Shinji

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You have a weird, maybe unhealthy, view of sex, dates and women.
Well, he also claimed that the only reason men stick for equal rights and speak out against sexist depictions in media is so women will sleep with them.

So yeah...
 
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Dreiko

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Literally cannot begin to express how fucking weird all of that is.
To me it's weird to see sex as some sort of punishment that the woman endures and needs to be recompensed for, and not something she is likely gonna enjoy at least as much if not more than the guy is. And if that is the case, there is no being "tricked" into it. It's like complaining you were "tricked into recieving a free house" or something. It's an oxymoron.


I dunno, I may be weird in liking to see people happy and thinking of sex as a mutual good for both people engaged in it, something both people should be grateful for, but I think that it should be that way even if it is weird right now.



Well, he also claimed that the only reason men stick for equal rights and speak out against sexist depictions in media is so women will sleep with them.

So yeah...
Now see, here's an actual example of sexual manipulation I can agree with. Being fake, even in ways which are generally seen as good by society at large, is still just manipulative. Those are actually sneaky and weak folks who don't have enough courage to be honest about their opinions and are subservient and appeasing in hopes of getting some pitylove.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Now see, here's an actual example of sexual manipulation I can agree with. Being fake, even in ways which are generally seen as good by society at large, is still just manipulative. Those are actually sneaky and weak folks who don't have enough courage to be honest about their opinions and are subservient and appeasing in hopes of getting some pitylove.
I wasn't giving an example of sexual manipulation, it was an example of how you seem to view men who call for equal rights i.e. 'they just wanna get laid'. This is the viewpoint of someone who doesn't think there can be any interactions between men and women that doesn't boil down to 'men wanna to get laid'. And it's an extremely shallow way of looking at things that you should probably have grown out of past the age of 16.
 

Dreiko

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I wasn't giving an example of sexual manipulation, it was an example of how you seem to view men who call for equal rights i.e. 'they just wanna get laid'. This is the viewpoint of someone who doesn't think there can be any interactions between men and women that doesn't boil down to 'men wanna to get laid'. And it's an extremely shallow way of looking at things that you should probably have grown out of past the age of 16.
Oh no, sure you can have all sorts of interactions with women just like you can do with men, like, there's lesbians and stuff, they're still women. And also there's old women and so on, obviously you wouldn't need a sexual dynamic to talk to your friend's grandma. I love sharing cooking tips with grandmas cause they know old stuff I've never heard of before which can be pretty unique.


But that doesn't mean those specific people you referenced are not being sneaky and not using that angle as their way in.
 

Casual Shinji

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Oh no, sure you can have all sorts of interactions with women just like you can do with men, like, there's lesbians and stuff, they're still women. And also there's old women and so on, obviously you wouldn't need a sexual dynamic to talk to your friend's grandma. I love sharing cooking tips with grandmas cause they know old stuff I've never heard of before which can be pretty unique.


But that doesn't mean those specific people you referenced are not being sneaky and not using that angle as their way in.
I honestly can't tell if you're putting on a act here, or if you're really this... how to put it kindly, questionable.
 

Cheetodust

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Oh no, sure you can have all sorts of interactions with women just like you can do with men, like, there's lesbians and stuff, they're still women. And also there's old women and so on, obviously you wouldn't need a sexual dynamic to talk to your friend's grandma. I love sharing cooking tips with grandmas cause they know old stuff I've never heard of before which can be pretty unique.


But that doesn't mean those specific people you referenced are not being sneaky and not using that angle as their way in.
If you're ever struggling to get laid, have you checked your personality?
 

Satinavian

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If you're not capable of enjoying someone else's company, why are you dating?
Personally i have only ever dated looking for a life partner.

Getting to know a prospective canditate, learn their personality and habits, share expectations, dreams and desires, learn about each others circumstances... All of these
are important and dates are the means to do so. In addition to being an opportunity to present yourself and do some bonding.

All very important things. But fun ? I don't find it fun and would not go to a date with someone i don't consider a potential partner or with someone of whom i know they are not looking for long term partnerships.