Uhm...In both Oblivion and Fallout 3, the fast-travel system was 100% optional. They didn't ruin anything by just being there. Now if it was forced, then yes it's an issue with me. But it wasn't forced, and thus it isn't a problem.
Your opinion on "fast travelling" in open-world RPGs
- Thread starter LookingGlass
- Start date
Wel, i agree that fast travelling kind of diminish the immersion and adventure opportunities.. in oblivion i only occasionnaly took long walks between locations, not much was happeining but i could look at the environment.. and i liked it.
But the oblivion world was pretty empty and sterile.. so not much interesting could happen on the road. No caravans. No one of importance to speak to. Nearly no events on the road. Roads are almost depopulated anyway, only guards, animals and bandits are on it with regularity.
But the convenience of cutting in the long walks just to get from A to D, when im just not in the mood to get interrupted by bandits #3411, is strong.
Maybe just make fast travaelling only possible between a few points in the worlds, like major towns only (and you have to pay a reasonable sum for it, or maybe only a special priviledge after a quest). That way you can cut the walk for a bit, but you still need to walk to get to your location.
But the oblivion world was pretty empty and sterile.. so not much interesting could happen on the road. No caravans. No one of importance to speak to. Nearly no events on the road. Roads are almost depopulated anyway, only guards, animals and bandits are on it with regularity.
But the convenience of cutting in the long walks just to get from A to D, when im just not in the mood to get interrupted by bandits #3411, is strong.
Maybe just make fast travaelling only possible between a few points in the worlds, like major towns only (and you have to pay a reasonable sum for it, or maybe only a special priviledge after a quest). That way you can cut the walk for a bit, but you still need to walk to get to your location.
I'm going to conduct an experiment where I express my opinion relying almost entirely on other peoples' words. Read all this as if it were one sequential thought. Here goes...
Ok, I'm done with the quote mongering now, but I'd like to relate an experience I had which helps illustrate the last point.
The one thing I hated about Oblivion the most was the quest marker on your map and compass. It's like everyone and everything had a GPS tracker on it. The most effective way to play was to stare at your UI and occasionally glance at the game world to make sure you weren't dying. I went with the "don't like it, don't use it" mindset and downloaded a mod which disabled it. Ah, much better.
Shortly after I did that, I accepted a quest which told me to go into the Northern wilderness and locate a certain alter (it was the mages' guild quest from....anvil, I think?) I headed out into the wilderness and checked my journal for directions or hints to the location. Wait a minute...there are absolutely no directions in this quest text. Well, maybe I can talk to the townspeople to learn more? Nope, they don't say anything either. After a few minutes, I decided to head out and try my hand anyway. After 30 minutes of searching I was confused. I disabled the mod (which re-enabled my compass) and started the game back up. Aha, THERE is my objective!
It was precisely that moment when I realized that simply "not using it" was not a viable solution. The game expected you to be using the compass marker, so it did not provide any other means of locating objects or people in the wilderness.
In the case of fast travel, you clearly do have an alternate means of traveling by using your feet, but the game changes significantly when you choose to forgo a system that the game is expecting you to be using, and it doesn't always change for the better.
Scrumpmonkey said:
Now, some might say...SemiHumanTarget said:
That's a completely understandable sentiment, but that's more of a problem with the content design than the systems in play. For example,Zhukov said:
Frehls said:
BSCCollateral said:
Of course, even if you don't have a problem with the landscape, some people are just crunched for time.AC10 said:
Fortunately, it's certainly possible to cater to these players' needs without having to resort to instantaneous warping.Frehls said:
Lastly, there's one mantra that keeps getting repeated that isn't as applicable as it seems.SemiHumanTarget said:
See, that's not as easy as it sounds because, often times,Too many to list said:
Treblaine said:
Without fast travel, quests like that would take an inordinate amount of time to complete. But those quests exist, becauseDeimir said:
.Treblaine said:
Ok, I'm done with the quote mongering now, but I'd like to relate an experience I had which helps illustrate the last point.
The one thing I hated about Oblivion the most was the quest marker on your map and compass. It's like everyone and everything had a GPS tracker on it. The most effective way to play was to stare at your UI and occasionally glance at the game world to make sure you weren't dying. I went with the "don't like it, don't use it" mindset and downloaded a mod which disabled it. Ah, much better.
Shortly after I did that, I accepted a quest which told me to go into the Northern wilderness and locate a certain alter (it was the mages' guild quest from....anvil, I think?) I headed out into the wilderness and checked my journal for directions or hints to the location. Wait a minute...there are absolutely no directions in this quest text. Well, maybe I can talk to the townspeople to learn more? Nope, they don't say anything either. After a few minutes, I decided to head out and try my hand anyway. After 30 minutes of searching I was confused. I disabled the mod (which re-enabled my compass) and started the game back up. Aha, THERE is my objective!
It was precisely that moment when I realized that simply "not using it" was not a viable solution. The game expected you to be using the compass marker, so it did not provide any other means of locating objects or people in the wilderness.
In the case of fast travel, you clearly do have an alternate means of traveling by using your feet, but the game changes significantly when you choose to forgo a system that the game is expecting you to be using, and it doesn't always change for the better.
Fast travelling is never mandatory (the only exception I can think of is in LoZ: Wind Waker which you have to fast travel to get inside of the grand fairy's island, but even that is just one time). If you don't want to fast travel, don't do it. There is no reason for a game not to have it.
Also,
Also,
I have three different files (two of which are on Xbox, which has no mods to extend the base game + DLC) with over 100 hours each and I use fast travel. Fast travelling didn't make FO3 short for you, missing a bunch of content did.LookingGlass said:
I think the more poignant issue is:
'Forced to chose between monotonous trudge through overworld, or cheap insta-travel that acts like a level-skip code'
it's not enough to just say "don't use insta-travel", the issue is how the PRESENCE OF THE MECHANIC ALONE is so bad that simply skipping it is no the solution.
Insta-Travel is the SYMPTOM, not the cause of bad level design.
OK, maybe not a symptom, more an indicative botch repair, like how a limp - trying to not put weight on a leg- indicates the leg is broken. A game that implements an insta-travel system indicates a game with a broken overworld.
You know why "sandbox" games like GTA are so popular? Because the overworld is quite fun to travel through! That's mainly due to the cars, it's like a lite-racing game.
Game designers need to stop relying on crutches like insta-travel to make up for how they designed the over-world to be way too damn boring to actually traverse.
Here are some off-the-head brainstorm ideas:
-Fast-mo = opposite of slow-mo, you jog over the landscape in fast-forward mode that instantly stops in combat
-Auto-pilot = RPG games with heavy menu-organisation, why not take this time on a long journey to organise your inventory while you run
-Reconnaissance bonus = the area you run through scanning for bandits, wildlife, radiation, magic, etc is VALUABLE information. Sell it to the local constable. As your reputation for reliability increases your information is worth more, this positive feedback loop is very rewarding encouraging you to "Recon" and further benefit as you get feedback from recon-movement you get inform on hidden items, special enemies and traps.
-Make the environments artistically AMAZING. DO NOT SKIMP ON ARTISTS! Have them fill the world with fantastic vistas, enchanting flocks of birds, rolling fog, epic sunrises and bright starry skies.
If it is a post-apocalyptic world then FILL it with post-apocalyptic stuff, like stumble upon a graveyard that extends to the horizon; cross paths with Mad Max style bikers; see aftermath of crashes and try to demonstrate what happened from the tire marks and tell a story.
All this to counter the player feeling "Aww this is pointless, I wish I could just magic myself to my location"
This is not hard. Developers just need to get their priorities straight and not allow their focus on set piece battles and quest to distract them from the long time spent on the overworld.
'Forced to chose between monotonous trudge through overworld, or cheap insta-travel that acts like a level-skip code'
it's not enough to just say "don't use insta-travel", the issue is how the PRESENCE OF THE MECHANIC ALONE is so bad that simply skipping it is no the solution.
Insta-Travel is the SYMPTOM, not the cause of bad level design.
OK, maybe not a symptom, more an indicative botch repair, like how a limp - trying to not put weight on a leg- indicates the leg is broken. A game that implements an insta-travel system indicates a game with a broken overworld.
You know why "sandbox" games like GTA are so popular? Because the overworld is quite fun to travel through! That's mainly due to the cars, it's like a lite-racing game.
Game designers need to stop relying on crutches like insta-travel to make up for how they designed the over-world to be way too damn boring to actually traverse.
Here are some off-the-head brainstorm ideas:
-Fast-mo = opposite of slow-mo, you jog over the landscape in fast-forward mode that instantly stops in combat
-Auto-pilot = RPG games with heavy menu-organisation, why not take this time on a long journey to organise your inventory while you run
-Reconnaissance bonus = the area you run through scanning for bandits, wildlife, radiation, magic, etc is VALUABLE information. Sell it to the local constable. As your reputation for reliability increases your information is worth more, this positive feedback loop is very rewarding encouraging you to "Recon" and further benefit as you get feedback from recon-movement you get inform on hidden items, special enemies and traps.
-Make the environments artistically AMAZING. DO NOT SKIMP ON ARTISTS! Have them fill the world with fantastic vistas, enchanting flocks of birds, rolling fog, epic sunrises and bright starry skies.
If it is a post-apocalyptic world then FILL it with post-apocalyptic stuff, like stumble upon a graveyard that extends to the horizon; cross paths with Mad Max style bikers; see aftermath of crashes and try to demonstrate what happened from the tire marks and tell a story.
All this to counter the player feeling "Aww this is pointless, I wish I could just magic myself to my location"
This is not hard. Developers just need to get their priorities straight and not allow their focus on set piece battles and quest to distract them from the long time spent on the overworld.
How about fun alternatives to fast travel? Like abusing Fortify Acrobatics, Jump, and Slowfall in Morrowind.
if i wanted to explore then i would explore but sometimes i dont have the time to run 30 minutes across the map to talk to a person to run all the way back
I don't think this is too much of a problem, but it really depends moreso on the game. For instance for some games I know of that have teleporting (Legend of Zelda, Fable) it's almost a necessity. The game is so vast and at some point so repetitive and bland (and even too dark that it just seems you're walking through black half the time. I experience this a LOT with Fable...got it with an original Xbox at a yardsale 3 days ago). You kind of just want to rush through it. The game feels more about the intrinsic story than the environment.
For other games however, like Shadow of the Colossus, Metroid Prime (?) and Tales of Symphonia, I think the game has a lot more leaning on what's going on around the character.
I haven't played very many modern games unfortunately (I'm mostly a retrogamer), I don't have a quality PC or PS3/360, but from what I have played games don't generally cheapen themselves with teleport systems. If anything, it should be the user's discretion whether or not to use them. For instance in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I would much rather take the ride with Epona across Hyrule Field than teleport place to place when I've got that nostalgia feeling, but when you're playing for a few hours you get tired of doing the same backtracking over and over again. With Shadow of the Colossus there seems to be cookie-cutter balance between fighting and traveling and the world just seems to draw you in awe, even after four or five playthroughs. I've played it's predecessor, ICO, and still marvel at the lighting and architecture. Twilight Princess also has a very beautiful environment, and I'd consider it another candidate for my "Art in Gaming Greats", as well as Okami, Metal Gear Solid 3, and the original five fixed-camera titles of the Resident Evil franchise.
For other games however, like Shadow of the Colossus, Metroid Prime (?) and Tales of Symphonia, I think the game has a lot more leaning on what's going on around the character.
I haven't played very many modern games unfortunately (I'm mostly a retrogamer), I don't have a quality PC or PS3/360, but from what I have played games don't generally cheapen themselves with teleport systems. If anything, it should be the user's discretion whether or not to use them. For instance in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I would much rather take the ride with Epona across Hyrule Field than teleport place to place when I've got that nostalgia feeling, but when you're playing for a few hours you get tired of doing the same backtracking over and over again. With Shadow of the Colossus there seems to be cookie-cutter balance between fighting and traveling and the world just seems to draw you in awe, even after four or five playthroughs. I've played it's predecessor, ICO, and still marvel at the lighting and architecture. Twilight Princess also has a very beautiful environment, and I'd consider it another candidate for my "Art in Gaming Greats", as well as Okami, Metal Gear Solid 3, and the original five fixed-camera titles of the Resident Evil franchise.
Depends on the game. When you look at a game like Fallout 3 or Oblivion, yeah...sometimes. Adventure is one of the key parts of the game but I wouldn't like to HAVE to go across the map every time, the map is huge and when I want to explore I trek out into the plains in search of wealth and adventure, I fast travel when I have stuff to do.
But with a game like Witcher 2 where missions, not exploring is the key focus fast travel is almost neccesary (to get sidetracked, The Witcher 2 did NOT hjave fast travel becoming extremely annoying but being counter-acted by the relatively small map in any chapter.). It's not a bad thing to have fast travel, it just is convinient to the player not to have to walk across the map, which is sometimes so large you need a start early in the day to arrive at the other end by nightfall (and I'm talking about in real life).
But with a game like Witcher 2 where missions, not exploring is the key focus fast travel is almost neccesary (to get sidetracked, The Witcher 2 did NOT hjave fast travel becoming extremely annoying but being counter-acted by the relatively small map in any chapter.). It's not a bad thing to have fast travel, it just is convinient to the player not to have to walk across the map, which is sometimes so large you need a start early in the day to arrive at the other end by nightfall (and I'm talking about in real life).
Usually my system is, During the story mode I walk, games like fallout and oblivian make this atmospheric, once i get to the dicking around part i usually fast travel as instant gratification is the way to go.
They are there, if you dont want them you dont need them.
They are there, if you dont want them you dont need them.
I agree with you to a point, but I'm glad the option is there. Early on especially, it's nice to go and travel on your own because you may discover new things. However, when you've been playing 100+ hours of Oblivion and you're just going to Imperial City to sell some stuff, I'm glad you have the option. I don't know how many times I would have made tedious trips from there to the Mages Tower (and vice versa) without the option of fast travel.
I do a lot of errand running (for lack of a better term) in Bethesda games and I'm glad I can do so quickly. Like others have said, the option is there to travel in a traditional way, so both camps can be happy and anyone can decide to what extent they want to travel quickly.
In games like Red Dead Redemption, I barely fast-traveled until near the end because I had a good time encountering random people or areas, for example. I'm sure I'll do the same at first with Skyrim, too. In something like New Vegas, though, where I like to hoard unique equipment and I travel back and forth from wherever to Vegas to do so, I would be very annoyed at having to walk there over and over.
I do a lot of errand running (for lack of a better term) in Bethesda games and I'm glad I can do so quickly. Like others have said, the option is there to travel in a traditional way, so both camps can be happy and anyone can decide to what extent they want to travel quickly.
In games like Red Dead Redemption, I barely fast-traveled until near the end because I had a good time encountering random people or areas, for example. I'm sure I'll do the same at first with Skyrim, too. In something like New Vegas, though, where I like to hoard unique equipment and I travel back and forth from wherever to Vegas to do so, I would be very annoyed at having to walk there over and over.
i certainly don't like it when fast travel is forced on you. I like overworlds in my games and I either walk or use methods of transportation provided by the game. But in oblivion for example, if I'm in Anvil and random NPC #63 wants me to deliver something to their friend in Leyawiin there is no way that I am going to walk clear to the other side of the country and back. That's why games have optional fast travel, to make tedious quests like that move along faster.
I agree, but tend to disagree! I have honestly logged over 150+ hours into my Fallout 3 save, and I haven't even completed the main story line yet!
I agree that travelling the land IS a major part of a sandbox-style open world game, 100%! However I do believe that fast-travelling is needed and very useful when you've already looked in every nook and cranny of the area you possibly can! Especially when route to said place is hard to find/traverse or is crawling with baddies. It helps to alleviate the repetitiveness of that all!
I never really think about it too much; it's always just in my head (as what I want to do) to explore a place inside & out and get everything I can, while only fast-travelling when it is needed. It seems like the way to fully enjoy the fun of looting and discovering on your own, while helping to rid irritating repetition (like in Fallout Three, if you accidentally die from some RIDICULOUS radiation poisoning or anything really! Imagine having to WALK all the way back to where you were!
)
So that's what I think! lol.
I agree that travelling the land IS a major part of a sandbox-style open world game, 100%! However I do believe that fast-travelling is needed and very useful when you've already looked in every nook and cranny of the area you possibly can! Especially when route to said place is hard to find/traverse or is crawling with baddies. It helps to alleviate the repetitiveness of that all!
I never really think about it too much; it's always just in my head (as what I want to do) to explore a place inside & out and get everything I can, while only fast-travelling when it is needed. It seems like the way to fully enjoy the fun of looting and discovering on your own, while helping to rid irritating repetition (like in Fallout Three, if you accidentally die from some RIDICULOUS radiation poisoning or anything really! Imagine having to WALK all the way back to where you were!
)So that's what I think! lol.
If im on a quest, I use it often so I don't waste time and get the quest over with.
Other than that, it's convenient.
Other than that, it's convenient.