I'm noticing Vegeta not saying anything, probably because he murdered a whole damn planet.
Found this on deviant-art!
You're Favorite Heel/Face Turns
- Thread starter happyninja42
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That, and it looks like a face of "I clearly don't want to be here, but I have nowhere else to be right now". I still think Vegeta has never really earned his redemption. Though, Bakugou & Endeavor especially, I find much worse.
Bakugo from my hero academia?
If so, you might like this video. It's got significant spoilers for the anime/manga though, so be warned.
Then i suggest checking out that video. He does a good job breaking down Bakugo's arc. I still don't like the character in general, as his personality is just one I don't gel with. But I can appreciate the effort the creators put in to try and give him a dynamic growth.
Nothing against you or anything, but I do not like mother basement videos. He has some good stuff, but a lot of the stuff I don't like. Second, you know that conversation you had about jackass characters that you're forced to like or find somewhat sympathetic. Bakugo is neither of those. He's just another hot-headed bully that needs to learn from the power of friendship. When it's clearly much worse than that. Not to mention, there have been better jerk ass characters in anime that are better written than Bakugo. Regardless if they are the protagonist or rival characters.
Yusuke Urameshi
Kuwabara
Hiei
Ren Tao
Ryoko
Ryuko, Satsuki, and the majority of the Kill La Kill cast....
I could go on all day. Not to mention most teenage or child characters from different anime can kick Bakugo's ass or curb stomp him out right.
Also, I hate shows that make excuses, or tries to downplay bullying. That's a sore spot for me. I know Japan has different values when it comes to bullying, but this the part where I just say fuck that.
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That's fine, I don't assign my value based on you liking some youtuber I reference
I agree, like I said, even with that video defending his still ongoing redemption, I don't LIKE Bakugo. I agree he is a brash, arrogant, self-centered ego maniac, with power issues. I just think that it's possible for people to realize they are being a complete shit, and try and change. I don't think it means overlooking, or forgiving what they did in the past, but it doesn't mean, to me anyway, that they can't see their flaws, and make a conscious effort to improve them. To me, the stuff with Bakugo, is still ongoing, frankly I think, the point that he's at, up to where this video discusses (the fight with Deku), is basically his rock bottom, moment of clarity. That he's finally acknowledging that he is a fuck up, and he doesn't want to be that way. Which to me, is a perfectly fine place for a character. It shouldn't be a flipped switch, but a journey. And Bakugo is, again, to me based on this video material, STARTING that journey. He's still an asshole, he's still brash and abrasive, and he's hurt people in his past due to his bad outlook and thoughts on his own superiority. But while it is cliche, he IS still a kid. He's what, maybe 16 at this point, if not younger? I was nowhere near as bad of a person as Bakugo when I was that age, but I was hardly perfect, and I know for a fact that I hurt people casually, without even really thinking about it. I've also apparently bullied a kid in a situation so bad, that his mom called the cops to come to my house and "have a talk with me." Even though to me, the situation wasn't bullying, and was literally just a joke, that I thought he was aware of, but from his perspective, it wasn't. I've also been the focus of years worth of highschool bullying. I've also thought it was a really bright idea to go rock climbing, while HIGH, at NIGHT, without any safety equipment, on a cliff that had been known to have fatal falls from teens on multiple occasions. So I try not to be too harsh when I see a kid like Bakugo depicted as an asshole, because odds are he won't be like that for life. Very few people stay the same person they were in highschool.
Does that mean I like him? No, like I said, I still find him to be an asshole, but if he's at least trying to improve, I'm willing to give him some slack, as long as he actually shows he's making progress.
One point that he doesn't mention in the video, that I remember seeing, and I think it's in the...what, 3rd episode? After Deku saves him from the slime criminal after meeting All Might. They make a point to show the rest of the class, still openly mocking Deku, but the camera is focused on Bakugo, who is clearly NOT taking part. He's not defending Deku, but he's not participating either. He's just looking out the window, not pouring fuel on the fire, when it's usually him tossing the gas and the match. Which is a significant change in his personality, even as early as episode 3. So I think they were planting the seed from the very beginning that he's not perfect, but he's not evil. He's just flawed. He's a kid with problems, with poor impulse control, an ego, and probably not much incentive in his culture to think any of that as anything other than a virtue.
Wow, ok I've gone on long enough I think regarding Bakugo. It's funny, like I'm defending a character I don't like, and I don't really disagree with your dislike of him, because frankly I share a lot of it. I just think, as far a redemption arc goes, that his is pretty good. You mentioned my previous dislike of being told to empathize with a horrible person, and that is true, I don't like something forcing me to do that (though with gaming it's more making me BE that person). But I do think there is a difference in a horrible person, and a flawed person who has made some bad choices, but who isn't actively trying to be bad, but is misguided. I'm more willing to empathize with a character like that, than say, anyone in the GTA franchise, who are just parodies of people who are comprised of nothing but flaws.
Bakugo wants to be a good guy, he wants to help people. But he's just seeing that goal through a very skewed lens.
You ever seen/read Great Teacher Onizuka? It features a character that bullies another character to a degree that they attempt suicide twice, and not only do they get redeemed they end up in a romantic relationship with said bully victim. And it tries to play this off as sweet and 'all's well that ends well'. It's... kinda fucked up.
I kind of lost my patience myself with bully redemption arcs.
He needs to do a better job (the writer needs to do a better job). His parents aren't helping. He really gets his attitude from his mother and it shows. She wears and controls the pants in the family, and the husband is basically a beta male. I hate to use that term. The fact that he is yet to apologize is a big sticking point for me he is yet to own up and say sorry to Izuku for all that crap. Especially the go kill yourself speech. I don't care if it's a case of characterization marches on or early installment weirdness, it ain't cool. The 14-year-old version of myself wanted to jump into the screen and choke the crap out of him. the only anime characters I can think of that I hate more than him that are supposed to be seen as likable or sympathetic are Holland, Sasuke, Mineta (he is going to be put on a sex offenders list. The grape midget from mha), Kagome, and Naru (nearly the entire cast while I'm at it).
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That is a major problem with shounen right now. Villains or bullies that get redemption arcs and do not deserve them. Especially if they are domestic abusers. Shaman King (manga version) suffered from it. Naruto suffered from it. Negima suffeed from it. Out of the three, Shaman King suffered from it the worst. Yes, more than Sasuke!
Not familiar with the other anime examples you gave, but I agree he still hasn't apologized for the stuff he's done in the past. I don't think it's a flaw in the writing, I think it's intentional. That they are having it be more of a long development with him. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is Bakugo's final form and we're supposed to just go *shrugs* "Well, this is as good as he can be" and if so, then yes I don't think he's a good character at all. That he hasn't changed enough to be redeemed in MY eyes at least.
I just don't think the writer is that limited. I think he's just making it a loooong growth for him. I mean he gives us an equivalent pairing in the form of All Might and...the flame guy, Todoroki's father. Who is an ADULT, and did some HORRIBLE things to his family as a symptom of his pride/ego, and he's been like that for decades. So it seems like the writer is capable of seeing that this isn't a short term, easily fixed thing for some people.
Again, I agree, I'm not excusing the shitty things Bakugo's done, but I equally don't think the writer is either. I think he's just making it a much longer rivalry/melodrama between the two of them, that will probably last until they are full fledged heroes on the job.
Sidenote, if any of you are big fans of My Hero Academia, go read Superpowers, by Drew Hayes. It's basically this exact premise, but college instead of highschool. And US society instead of Japanese. Really damn good book series. HIGHLY recommend it to anyone who enjoys superhero genre, but likes it with a spicing of a realistic take on things.
That does not fill me with confidence and is the Sasuke effect wasting everyone's time. There is long growth, and then there having the speed of an incredibly, super slow glacier, where the snail is moving faster than that. If you want to see long growth done right watch Monster (Eva Heinemann & Inspector Lunge), Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood/Manga (Scar & Greed), and once again Hiei (Yu Yu Hakusho). That is how you do long growth.
Fuck Endeavor even harder. I hate domestic abuser. Especially ones that are no different from how Joker treats Harley. Shang Tsung can have the fucker's soul for all I care. You know something is wrong when a villain as him has more class than a so-called hero.
Reading other things right now, but I will put that on my to read list. Thank you.
Agreed, fuck Endeavor. I don't think you're supposed to like him, he's certainly not framed as a good guy in any capacity of the anime, up to the point I've seen anyway. I think he's supposed to be a cautionary tale. The "this is my fate if I don't change" kind of future glimpse for someone like Bakugo.
I again though, do think that pretty much everyone can, and should have the chance to improve themselves if they genuinely try. I mean, otherwise our entire corrective system (while seriously fucked up), is basically pointless. If we truly think people can't change and be better, then the logical response should be execution for everyone that strays from the path. But nobody....ok well MOST people don't think that way. So if I allow for someone to be better, I have to allow for them to have been worse at some point, to get better from. That includes those who have hurt others, either intentionally or accidentally. Sadly our actions can fuck up those around us, and we have to live with that, and so do they. So, we can either try and find a better outcome for everyone, or just say fuck it and burn it all down. Because otherwise, what's the point.
Which yes, does mean, we should allow for people who have done terrible things, but aren't necessarily terrible people, a chance to try and make amends. Hence, the appeal of redemption arcs in storytelling. Yes, it can be done poorly, or fantastically, and personal tastes always flavor such things but....hmm, not really sure how to end that, plus my cat is trying to eat my headphones and now I've lost my train of thought. Think I'll leave it there.
It fails as a cautionary tale when all of the sudden (this mainly comes up at the end of Season 4) where Edeav wants to be a hero Todoroki can be proud of. It happens way too soon and not convincing. The fact that he is a domestic abuser, does not help! I really have it out for those type of characters. Once again, FMA does cautionary tale better. Just substitute superheroes with cycle of revenge, war, soldiers, and arrogance in thinking you can create life through alchemy or bringing the dead back to life.
I do thank you and I am more than aware of that. It's why mentioned those characters. That either start off as total scumbags (Eva) or are super troubled (Scar), but they develop in to better people. Hell, that is the entire point in Monster and FMA; especially the former.
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Kagome - Inuyasha
Sasuke - Naruto
Mineta - from MHA. The grape midget with a diaper.
Holland and most of the crew from Gekko State - Eureka Seven
Naru - Love Hina.
Now you know. These characters will piss you off, and not in the good way!
The thing with Vegeta for my money is that given his life prior to coming to Earth for the dragon balls, redemption was never truly on the table. Vegeta becomes a better man, though the Buu saga gives the audience a sharp reminder he was once a mass murdering psycho with a hate boner for Goku, but fact is he lived a life of space piracy and genocide and the universe rewarded him a hot, rich wife and children: something he’d have taken without mercy from billions.
That being said, there’s also probably some pragmatism on behalf of the other Z-fighters in that Vegeta is best kept on side if only because actually putting him in the ground is going to be monumentally destructive and difficult.
It's part of the other reason why I hate the Buu saga.
More than aware.