Youtube terminates Teamfourstar.

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rcs619

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CaitSeith said:
The Bucket said:
CrazyGirl17 said:
The more I hear about the frequent copyright claims, the more incensed I get. I think it's about time we have a class-action lawsuit... We have to do something to stop the big companies from taking over, right?

#WTFU
How could you have a class action lawsuit over it? As wrong as they might be, I dont see how Youtube isnt perfectly legally entitled to choose whatever content they let on their platform
Simple: false content ID claims strip the video creator from their revenue and give them to the claiming party while the claim is being disputed (and the video is still generating views in this case). Once all is cleared up, that money is never returned to the video creator.
I don't think the issue is so much the legality as it is the logistics. These are obviously spurious claims being made against a legitimate business that are leading to the loss of revenue. That should fall in the content creators' favor all day every day in court.

The real issue though is the practical logistics of actually taking these people to court. A great many of the groups making these claims are million/billion dollar multinational corporations. Good fucking luck trying to get anything from them through legal means. They have the kinds of lawyers who can tie the case up in legalese for the better part of a decade. It doesn't matter if you're right under the law if the other side can bleed you dry financially to the point where you're unable to pursue the case any more. They don't have to be right, they just have to be able to outlast you, which they very much have the resources to do.

Also, let's be real. Even if you get to the trial phase without going bankrupt, you're putting your faith in a judge (usually someone in their 40's and much older) to 1: actually understand what the hell a let's play, a parody video and/or an anime is, and 2: be able to make a decision on the place of fair use law within an exceptionally new form of media. It seems like it'd be a coin flip at the best of times.
 

Fappy

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Something Amyss said:
Fappy said:
EDIT: The biggest Youtubers in the business should pool their resources, build a dev team and finance a streaming platform to compete with Youtube. The only reason this is happening is because they have a monopoly and see no reason to make the changes people are demanding.
While this is true, one of the main reasons for that is the massive scope necessary here. I'm going to bet the top content creators pooling their resources would still be a fart in a stiff breeze.
Well they certainly don't have the raw capital to go up against Google from the get-go, but they certainly have enough to finance a start up. Once they've got a prototype video player, servers and a site to stream from they could shop around for investors. The main hurdle would be competing with the enormous juggernaut brand that is Youtube, but if most of the big youtubers jump ship for the new platform their audiences would follow them.
 

CaitSeith

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rcs619 said:
CaitSeith said:
The Bucket said:
CrazyGirl17 said:
The more I hear about the frequent copyright claims, the more incensed I get. I think it's about time we have a class-action lawsuit... We have to do something to stop the big companies from taking over, right?

#WTFU
How could you have a class action lawsuit over it? As wrong as they might be, I dont see how Youtube isnt perfectly legally entitled to choose whatever content they let on their platform
Simple: false content ID claims strip the video creator from their revenue and give them to the claiming party while the claim is being disputed (and the video is still generating views in this case). Once all is cleared up, that money is never returned to the video creator.
I don't think the issue is so much the legality as it is the logistics. These are obviously spurious claims being made against a legitimate business that are leading to the loss of revenue. That should fall in the content creators' favor all day every day in court.

The real issue though is the practical logistics of actually taking these people to court. A great many of the groups making these claims are million/billion dollar multinational corporations. Good fucking luck trying to get anything from them through legal means. They have the kinds of lawyers who can tie the case up in legalese for the better part of a decade. It doesn't matter if you're right under the law if the other side can bleed you dry financially to the point where you're unable to pursue the case any more. They don't have to be right, they just have to be able to outlast you, which they very much have the resources to do.

Also, let's be real. Even if you get to the trial phase without going bankrupt, you're putting your faith in a judge (usually someone in their 40's and much older) to 1: actually understand what the hell a let's play, a parody video and/or an anime is, and 2: be able to make a decision on the place of fair use law within an exceptionally new form of media. It seems like it'd be a coin flip at the best of times.
We are talking about class action here, not just one creator; we aren't talking about suing the groups making the claims, but suing Youtube itself for not returning the money that the creators were denied; and it's not only LP, parody or anime, but also movie criticism. Even people outside the Internet understand what movie criticism is, as it has existed on TV for decades (did Robert Ebert ever had to ask permission to criticize a film?)
 

-Dragmire-

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Fappy said:
Something Amyss said:
Fappy said:
EDIT: The biggest Youtubers in the business should pool their resources, build a dev team and finance a streaming platform to compete with Youtube. The only reason this is happening is because they have a monopoly and see no reason to make the changes people are demanding.
While this is true, one of the main reasons for that is the massive scope necessary here. I'm going to bet the top content creators pooling their resources would still be a fart in a stiff breeze.
Well they certainly don't have the raw capital to go up against Google from the get-go, but they certainly have enough to finance a start up. Once they've got a prototype video player, servers and a site to stream from they could shop around for investors. The main hurdle would be competing with the enormous juggernaut brand that is Youtube, but if most of the big youtubers jump ship for the new platform their audiences would follow them.
Are you talking about a service where only these people upload videos? Opening the floodgates to everyone to upload would put them in the same position as Youtube vs Viacom and I don't think they would fare as well in court.
 

Fappy

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-Dragmire- said:
Fappy said:
Something Amyss said:
Fappy said:
EDIT: The biggest Youtubers in the business should pool their resources, build a dev team and finance a streaming platform to compete with Youtube. The only reason this is happening is because they have a monopoly and see no reason to make the changes people are demanding.
While this is true, one of the main reasons for that is the massive scope necessary here. I'm going to bet the top content creators pooling their resources would still be a fart in a stiff breeze.
Well they certainly don't have the raw capital to go up against Google from the get-go, but they certainly have enough to finance a start up. Once they've got a prototype video player, servers and a site to stream from they could shop around for investors. The main hurdle would be competing with the enormous juggernaut brand that is Youtube, but if most of the big youtubers jump ship for the new platform their audiences would follow them.
Are you talking about a service where only these people upload videos? Opening the floodgates to everyone to upload would put them in the same position as Youtube vs Viacom and I don't think they would fare as well in court.
Not just the top youtubers exclusively, but certainly curated content.
 

Something Amyss

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Fappy said:
Well they certainly don't have the raw capital to go up against Google from the get-go, but they certainly have enough to finance a start up. Once they've got a prototype video player, servers and a site to stream from they could shop around for investors. The main hurdle would be competing with the enormous juggernaut brand that is Youtube, but if most of the big youtubers jump ship for the new platform their audiences would follow them.
I don't know. Channel Awesome is still uploading to YouTube because people like me can't work their shit player. My PC can handle Fallout at recommended specs, but I have to go to YouTube if I want to watch AT4W. And it's put up there because Linkara knows people have problems with their Shockwave player.

The Escapist is likely doing the same. I don't even waste my time with their proprietary player these days. And please, don't anyone tell me to contact the tech team. My two interactions have involved them insisting everything was fine.

Apparently, just getting a semi-functional player is kind of a big deal.

Like, it sounds good, but I dont't think it's practical.
 

Saltyk

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Is it that time of year already? I didn't think Team Four Star was supposed to be removed from Youtube again til April? Guess I got my dates wrong.

In all seriousness, TFS is in a legal grey area. On one hand, you can argue that the work is transformative and parody. On the other hand, literally 95% of the assets they use in these videos are owned by Toei. Also, I'm pretty sure fair use generally limits how much of the original content you actually use. And they probably lap that limit a few times in the average video.

That being said, they are not hurting Dragon Ball. If anything, they probably help it and make it more popular. I don't know a Dragon Ball fan that doesn't love DBZA. They'll as likely to quote DBZA as DBZ. You could almost argue that Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super all exist partly thanks to Team Four Star. And even Funimation is fans (Chris Sabat has stated as such and even met various members, with several other Funimation voice actors having parts in their episodes and movies).

Anyway, they'll be back on Youtube soon, if they aren't already back up. And their website still exists to watch the videos anytime you like without fear of the copyright BS getting to them.
 

rcs619

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CaitSeith said:
We are talking about class action here, not just one creator; we aren't talking about suing the groups making the claims, but suing Youtube itself for not returning the money that the creators were denied; and it's not only LP, parody or anime, but also movie criticism. Even people outside the Internet understand what movie criticism is, as it has existed on TV for decades (did Robert Ebert ever had to ask permission to criticize a film?)
Youtube is owned by google, one of the wealthiest companies in the world. Even with a class-action lawsuit, it's still going to be an uphill battle just from a financial standpoint.

Something I would make sure to check is whether or not there's an anti-class action stipulation in whatever agreement these channels sign with youtube to monetize their videos. It's become extremely common for companies to slip such things into their terms of service, and just about everyone from Sony to Verizon does it in some form or another. It wouldn't surprise me if google has slipped it in somewhere. If that's the case, then you literally can't do a class-action suit against google/youtube because you would have already signed away your right to do so.

I don't know the specifics of that, but it would definitely be worth checking out. It would surprise me greatly if google hasn't covered their ass in that way when so many other companies have done so.

As for the Robert Ebert comparison, the difference is that Ebert is considered professional and legitimate. That isn't necessarily going to be the case when a judge is hearing about some young kid he's never heard of making money off videos he's put up on the youtubes. Perception counts for a lot. You can look on these very forums and find many posters who will vehemently argue that monetized youtube videos aren't actually "real" work.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

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Saltyk said:
In all seriousness, TFS is in a legal grey area. On one hand, you can argue that the work is transformative and parody. On the other hand, literally 95% of the assets they use in these videos are owned by Toei. Also, I'm pretty sure fair use generally limits how much of the original content you actually use. And they probably lap that limit a few times in the average video.

That being said, they are not hurting Dragon Ball. If anything, they probably help it and make it more popular. I don't know a Dragon Ball fan that doesn't love DBZA. They'll as likely to quote DBZA as DBZ. You could almost argue that Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super all exist partly thanks to Team Four Star. And even Funimation is fans (Chris Sabat has stated as such and even met various members, with several other Funimation voice actors having parts in their episodes and movies).
Please, pleeeeeeeeeease forgive me Saltyk, but there is no legal grey area here, as long as TFS resides in the US, because one single question should erase all legal doubt about this:

Explain "Weird Al" Yankovic, please.
 

JimB

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Something Amyss said:
Channel Awesome is still uploading to YouTube because people like me can't work their shit player.
I broke my boycott of Channel Awesome (long story no one cares about) because I was insanely curious to see how the Nostalgia Critic handles one of the most fascinatingly awful movies I've ever seen, Spawn, and I unfortunately do not know how they handled it because their player buffered endlessly until I could no longer stand to watch it. Oh well.

Something Amyss said:
The Escapist is likely doing the same. I don't even waste my time with their proprietary player these days. And please, don't anyone tell me to contact the tech team.
Have you tried lately? I couldn't watch videos here for, like, two months, and then one day I came back on a whim and whatever the problem was seemed to have fixed itself without any changes on my part.
 

Saltyk

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CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
In all seriousness, TFS is in a legal grey area. On one hand, you can argue that the work is transformative and parody. On the other hand, literally 95% of the assets they use in these videos are owned by Toei. Also, I'm pretty sure fair use generally limits how much of the original content you actually use. And they probably lap that limit a few times in the average video.

That being said, they are not hurting Dragon Ball. If anything, they probably help it and make it more popular. I don't know a Dragon Ball fan that doesn't love DBZA. They'll as likely to quote DBZA as DBZ. You could almost argue that Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super all exist partly thanks to Team Four Star. And even Funimation is fans (Chris Sabat has stated as such and even met various members, with several other Funimation voice actors having parts in their episodes and movies).
Please, pleeeeeeeeeease forgive me Saltyk, but there is no legal grey area here, as long as TFS resides in the US, because one single question should erase all legal doubt about this:
Nothing to forgive, man. You're just asking for me to clarify my statements.

Well, while one can argue that the work is parody and that it transforms the original work, that is all that is in favor of them. As I already said, the vast majority of what they are using to make their show is copyrighted material. The animations, characters, and music is all largely copyrighted material. Now, that isn't a problem in and of itself. The entire point of fair use is to protect people who wish to parody, review, and generally use the copy righted work.

However, there are four factors in determining whether one is protected by fair use.

~The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.
~The nature of the copyrighted work.
~The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
~The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The major issue, as I see it, is the third one. According to another content creator who's video I watched on this topic, Marzgurl, the general consensus is to keep clips within 30 seconds. Now, obviously, a reviewer is going to use multiple clips, but even that might be an issue if they use too many clips. It is hard to argue that TFS isn't using substantial content that belongs to Toei and Funimation. They've even changed their disclaimer to remove the "nonprofit" as they admit that they make money off their merchandise, though not a lot.

Now, I think TFS falls within fair use. However, it doesn't take a skilled lawyer to argue that they don't. Even TFS themselves have acknowledged the legal grey area they fall in. They contend that it is fair use, but acknowledge that if someone really wanted to sue them, they could very well lose the case.

Fair use is very vaguely defined. Likely to give the people who use copyrighted content some flexibility, but it also allows those who own the material to push much harder than they should be able to.

CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Explain "Weird Al" Yankovic, please.
Weird Al is parody. Probably transformative, as well. It should also be noted that Al always asks the musician's permission before making a parody or a video. He also has been sued in the past, but he won the case (this is actually why he started asking permission). I see the parallel you are making, though.

I'm not saying it isn't bullshit, but legally speaking TFS is in a grey area.
 

RaikuFA

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rcs619 said:
As for the Robert Ebert comparison, the difference is that Ebert is considered professional and legitimate. That isn't necessarily going to be the case when a judge is hearing about some young kid he's never heard of making money off videos he's put up on the youtubes. Perception counts for a lot. You can look on these very forums and find many posters who will vehemently argue that monetized youtube videos aren't actually "real" work.
By that logic. No one should ever review movies "professionally" again cause they're not as well known as Ebert.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

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Saltyk said:
yo snippity
Then, perhaps it is I that needs some clarification on this. Weird Al, who's work is mostly parodies and for entertainment purposes, and he earns money based off of it, is legal and has been proven in a court of law. TFS, who basically do the same thing except in video form...is somehow not legal? Not to mention, Weird Al's done his own parody videos of other people's music videos.

This is what I fail to understand, by my perception. Both works are transformative. Both works take substantive material from the original and use them for parody, which is protected under Fair Use. Yet, one is legally acceptable and the other is illegal? As Dante said in DMC4, "I fail to see the logic here."
 

Saltyk

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CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
yo snippity
Then, perhaps it is I that needs some clarification on this. Weird Al, who's work is mostly parodies and for entertainment purposes, and he earns money based off of it, is legal and has been proven in a court of law. TFS, who basically do the same thing except in video form...is somehow not legal? Not to mention, Weird Al's done his own parody videos of other people's music videos.

This is what I fail to understand, by my perception. Both works are transformative. Both works take substantive material from the original and use them for parody, which is protected under Fair Use. Yet, one is legally acceptable and the other is illegal? As Dante said in DMC4, "I fail to see the logic here."
Honestly, I'm not too sure myself. Both seem similar. However, there is a major difference. Weird Al parodies music that is largely US and UK in origin. As such, fair use is a lot more clear cut. But Dragon Ball is a Japanese copyright. Fair use can vary depending on region. I have no idea if there is any precedent for a US individual or group parodying a Japanese product.

It's entirely possible that a legal challenge would end in their favor. But that has not come up and TFS doesn't really have the money to defend against a legal challenge.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

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Saltyk said:
CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
yo snippity
Then, perhaps it is I that needs some clarification on this. Weird Al, who's work is mostly parodies and for entertainment purposes, and he earns money based off of it, is legal and has been proven in a court of law. TFS, who basically do the same thing except in video form...is somehow not legal? Not to mention, Weird Al's done his own parody videos of other people's music videos.

This is what I fail to understand, by my perception. Both works are transformative. Both works take substantive material from the original and use them for parody, which is protected under Fair Use. Yet, one is legally acceptable and the other is illegal? As Dante said in DMC4, "I fail to see the logic here."
Honestly, I'm not too sure myself. Both seem similar. However, there is a major difference. Weird Al parodies music that is largely US and UK in origin. As such, fair use is a lot more clear cut. But Dragon Ball is a Japanese copyright. Fair use can vary depending on region. I have no idea if there is any precedent for a US individual or group parodying a Japanese product.

It's entirely possible that a legal challenge would end in their favor. But that has not come up and TFS doesn't really have the money to defend against a legal challenge.
Fair Use may vary depending on regions, but jurisdiction, IIRC, lies where the defendant would be. In this case, it would be TFS, and I believe they are in the US. So, logic would follow suit that US law would take precedence over Japanese. Unless I am mistaken somewhere down this line of thinking...
 

Saltyk

Sane among the insane.
Sep 12, 2010
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CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
yo snippity
Then, perhaps it is I that needs some clarification on this. Weird Al, who's work is mostly parodies and for entertainment purposes, and he earns money based off of it, is legal and has been proven in a court of law. TFS, who basically do the same thing except in video form...is somehow not legal? Not to mention, Weird Al's done his own parody videos of other people's music videos.

This is what I fail to understand, by my perception. Both works are transformative. Both works take substantive material from the original and use them for parody, which is protected under Fair Use. Yet, one is legally acceptable and the other is illegal? As Dante said in DMC4, "I fail to see the logic here."
Honestly, I'm not too sure myself. Both seem similar. However, there is a major difference. Weird Al parodies music that is largely US and UK in origin. As such, fair use is a lot more clear cut. But Dragon Ball is a Japanese copyright. Fair use can vary depending on region. I have no idea if there is any precedent for a US individual or group parodying a Japanese product.

It's entirely possible that a legal challenge would end in their favor. But that has not come up and TFS doesn't really have the money to defend against a legal challenge.
Fair Use may vary depending on regions, but jurisdiction, IIRC, lies where the defendant would be. In this case, it would be TFS, and I believe they are in the US. So, logic would follow suit that US law would take precedence over Japanese. Unless I am mistaken somewhere down this line of thinking...
Honestly, I would probably need a law degree or some time to study Fair use to know for sure. I really don't know.

One of the biggest reasons I stated it is kind of a grey area is that TFS has stated as such. More over, they don't really wanna fight an extended legal battle on this sort of thing, perhaps due to lack of money. They flat out stopped making the Attack on Titan Abridged series because they had apparently had a threat of legal action.

In the end, I can't say that they could or couldn't beat a case. But I do think a case could be brought against them and it would hold water. One of the biggest advantages they might have is the case against Weird Al, perhaps setting some minor precedent in US law. But even that might not mean anything in international law.

Much rather they not have to deal with the legal bullshit and just focus on making us laugh. It's what they are good at.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

Is not insane, just crazy >:)
Jan 5, 2011
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Saltyk said:
CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
CrazyCapnMorgan said:
Saltyk said:
yo snippity
Then, perhaps it is I that needs some clarification on this. Weird Al, who's work is mostly parodies and for entertainment purposes, and he earns money based off of it, is legal and has been proven in a court of law. TFS, who basically do the same thing except in video form...is somehow not legal? Not to mention, Weird Al's done his own parody videos of other people's music videos.

This is what I fail to understand, by my perception. Both works are transformative. Both works take substantive material from the original and use them for parody, which is protected under Fair Use. Yet, one is legally acceptable and the other is illegal? As Dante said in DMC4, "I fail to see the logic here."
Honestly, I'm not too sure myself. Both seem similar. However, there is a major difference. Weird Al parodies music that is largely US and UK in origin. As such, fair use is a lot more clear cut. But Dragon Ball is a Japanese copyright. Fair use can vary depending on region. I have no idea if there is any precedent for a US individual or group parodying a Japanese product.

It's entirely possible that a legal challenge would end in their favor. But that has not come up and TFS doesn't really have the money to defend against a legal challenge.
Fair Use may vary depending on regions, but jurisdiction, IIRC, lies where the defendant would be. In this case, it would be TFS, and I believe they are in the US. So, logic would follow suit that US law would take precedence over Japanese. Unless I am mistaken somewhere down this line of thinking...
Honestly, I would probably need a law degree or some time to study Fair use to know for sure. I really don't know.

One of the biggest reasons I stated it is kind of a grey area is that TFS has stated as such. More over, they don't really wanna fight an extended legal battle on this sort of thing, perhaps due to lack of money. They flat out stopped making the Attack on Titan Abridged series because they had apparently had a threat of legal action.

In the end, I can't say that they could or couldn't beat a case. But I do think a case could be brought against them and it would hold water. One of the biggest advantages they might have is the case against Weird Al, perhaps setting some minor precedent in US law. But even that might not mean anything in international law.

Much rather they not have to deal with the legal bullshit and just focus on making us laugh. It's what they are good at.
Much agreed on the last bit, there. I guess in any case, we can only hope that TFS gets reinstated sometime down the line and this whole mess gets resolved....somehow. u.u
 

NeutralDrow

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I know it's not part of the general conversation, but I'm still legitimately curious...did their channel just go down briefly? Am I the only one who can still see it?

I'm asking because TeamFourStar is <url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsvazPPlhZlch0-Z3wPByeg>still there. Or is something else being implied by "terminate." Was TFS elimiated from some contract thing?
 

milamberarial461

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No, there were completely down as of even a few hours ago. You apparently just got lucky and didn't try to access their youtube channel while this was happening. Clicking on the link you just posted shows they are back up now.
 

Elfgore

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NeutralDrow said:
I know it's not part of the general conversation, but I'm still legitimately curious...did their channel just go down briefly? Am I the only one who can still see it?

I'm asking because TeamFourStar is <url=https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsvazPPlhZlch0-Z3wPByeg>still there. Or is something else being implied by "terminate." Was TFS elimiated from some contract thing?
OP updated saying they managed to get the channel back up. So woohoo!!!!

OT: This. Needs. To. Stop. Listen to me YouTube, this shit needs to change now. You've screwed over so many channels within two months it's god damn insane. The random channel deletions, the people falsely flagging videos to make money off them, and the screwing over the people who add actual fucking content to your website. Honestly at this point, I hope every semi-major YouTuber and above leaves. I'm talking Pewdiepie, Markiplier, Jacksfilms, and literally every semi-major youtuber that gives a shit about this stuff leaves and goes somewhere else. So google can realize how useless YouTube is when all you have is shitty reaction channels and creepy prank videos.