Zack Snyder’s Justice League

Bob_McMillan

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I still find it kinda funny how people see The Killing Joke as some big problematic thing. It's major in that it's one of the only times that the status quo is changed and sticks and doesn't try to return to normal. Admittedly where it goes from the events is likely far better than the events themselves but it shows the idea of people still finding a way to carry on, that life doesn't just end after such an injury and doesn't have to. Hell Arkham Knight (the video game) actually does some pretty good stuff with a subplot with Oracle which pays off at the end when you get the true ending of the game.
As you said though, none of the good things that came out of Barbara getting paralyzed are actually from The Killing Joke. I'm fairly certain Alan Moore wasn't thinking to himself "Man, this will be a great springboard for some inspiring character arcs for Barbara in the future". He wanted something uncomfortable and shocking, which it was, but even he thinks it could have been done better.
 

happyninja42

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The thing is that the relationship was pretty much totally created for the DC animated universe. There's no such relationship in the comics, at least the main ones. Which means the writers went out of their way to set up this weird scenario. Kinda like a fanfiction writer somehow getting hired on to their favorite franchise and just going nuts with inserting their bizarre head canon.
*shrugs* I mean every iteration takes some liberties with stuff, either different versions of the same comics, like all the different spiderman comics, with their own canon. to how the animated batman changed the entire story of how Mr. Freeze was, and it was so good and beloved that they reverse engineered it into the comics. Sure there are probably a million better things they could do with a primary female character other than "make her hook up with the lead", but I just mean that it's not that weird, on the insane scale of weird shit that normally happens in comics. For a young, horny girl, to have the hots for a father figure guy in her life, that she looks up to and admires, and who is also filthy rich. I mean take out the costumes and superpowers, and that's your standard romance movie premise for like, a bajillion films.

I dunno we did get Batman Beyond Ra's al Ghul swapping his mind with Talia to seduce elderly Bruce and Lazarus pit him to then try and transfer his consciousness out of Talia's body into Bruce's.

Also Justice League Dark with the implication that in the DC animated universe Talia may have drugged and raped Bruce to father Damien........
........ok yeah that's the kind of thing I was thinking of yeah. *sighs* Well, regardless in some other iteration they went all mind rapey, I still don't think the standard, non-insane "young woman has the hots for an older man she admires" premise of Batman Beyond is that weird. That they went fucking weird later with some other characters, doesn't make THAT Barbara relationship somehow icky by...I dunno, penis association? I mean it's something someone else did, not Barbara. But yeah, that's some fucked up shit that sounds like typical comic book insanity when it comes to relationships.
 
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BrawlMan

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I never liked nor cared for the Bruce and Barbara dating thing Tim and Dini started. I always tend to ignore or pretend it never happened. It only got worse for the "adaption" of The Killing Joke. At least in Batman Beyond they realized how bad of an idea it was. Though they've been playing with that idea since Mystery of Batwoman.

 
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SilentPony

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Apparently Gal Gadot refused to do that scene, so it had to be accomplished with special effects. Joss Whedon really is a weird prick isn't he. At this point, I just expect every person in Hollywood to be a horrible person.
I hadn't heard that! And I think that's awesome Gal Gadot said no, a random actor isn't going to do 10 takes of motorboating me for a 5 second throw away gag, while the entire shooting staff watch and the director jerks off in the corner.

And I think Hollywood attracts a certain type of person. Remember everyone who is an actor thinks they're good and special enough to be an actor. There's a certain base level of arrogance and pride just in being in Hollywood. And once the wealth and fame hits, I think its hard/impossible for that self pride to turn into disrespect and dismissiveness towards others. I can totally see Joss thinking to himself he wrote Buffy and its a popular show, why shouldn't he be allowed to be alone with the underage actresses? And unfortunately with the fame and wealth, it worked for 20+ years. Doubtless in 20 more we're gonna hear from Scarlet Johansson, Elizabeth Olsen, Cobie Smulders and others about casting couch shit, directors watching them change, and cast and crew sending them joke sex toy gifts with a note to use it on set.
 

SilentPony

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I never liked nor cared for the Bruce and Barbara dating thing Tim and Dini started. I always tend to ignore or pretend it never happened. It only got worse for the "adaption" of The Killing Joke. At least in Batman Beyond they realized how bad of an idea it was. Though they've been playing with that idea since Mystery of Batwoman.
Didn't they do an edgy 90s spin-off comic of the Batman Animated Series where Barbara and Dick are like engaged, but while Dick is away on duty she cheats with Bruce and gets pregnant by him?
 

Samtemdo8

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I never liked nor cared for the Bruce and Barbara dating thing Tim and Dini started. I always tend to ignore or pretend it never happened. It only got worse for the "adaption" of The Killing Joke. At least in Batman Beyond they realized how bad of an idea it was. Though they've been playing with that idea since Mystery of Batwoman.

"Won't that be nice"

How she says it, she is thirsty for the Bruce.
 

BrawlMan

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Didn't they do an edgy 90s spin-off comic of the Batman Animated Series where Barbara and Dick are like engaged, but while Dick is away on duty she cheats with Bruce and gets pregnant by him?
Yes. If I remember correctly, that issue was supposed to fill in the gap of when Bruce and Barbara started dating each other and why we don't see Dick Grayson around. Really bad, edgy fan-fiction, and I do not like it. A majority of fans tend to ignore for good reason. It's a blessing I am not a huge comic book reader.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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My problem with it is that the dark, brooding edge is so very much at odds with the super heroes in the Justice League. Both Wonder Woman and Superman are aspirational superheroes, they are superior to normal human beings in every way and yet they protect us because they feel they have a moral obligation to do so. The point of both of them as superheroes in a meta sense is to inspire hope and confidence, making the reader feel that the strong will do the right thing and be decent people and will always be there to defend what's right (any analogy here to the USA as the world police in a post-WW2 world being entirely intentional in the comics). Tonally, that's completely at odds with what Snyder loves to do, which is show flawed, broken people get by by the skin of their teeth by making huge sacrifices and struggling to get past their flaws.

Snyder's tone and theme are all wrong for the superheroes he's writing and directing. I don't think it is a coincidence that Wonder Woman is considered the best of the bunch, because it understands that Diana can be in bad situations and witness a lot of suffering but that the core of the character is that she will try to fix it and inspire hope in everyone around her. If that's the core of the character (like with WW and Supes) you damn well better make sure the tone of your movie matches, because if you don't, if you make Man of Steel a brooding piece about a reluctant, insecure hero, then you're bound to mess it up. You won't be making a mature take on a beloved character, you'll be butchering the themes of the character with every scene.
Perhaps a more observant and ambitious writer could pit differing philosophical outlooks against each other within the league, with various heated debates and arguments causing the main conflict throughout, until the obvious arc follows through where they learn instead that a little bit of each philosophy - when part of a team - can prove to be much more helpful in achieving their goals. Some characters' cynicism combined with others' optimism and a dash of crazy to save the day? Or if they were feeling really brave, not save the day as a bait and switch? I dunno, would be more entertaining at least for me!
 
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SilentPony

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Yes. If I remember correctly, that issue was supposed to fill in the gap of when Bruce and Barbara started dating each other and why we don't see Dick Grayson around. Really bad, edgy fan-fiction, and I do not like it. A majority of fans tend to ignore for good reason. It's a blessing I am not a huge comic book reader.
As much as I'm a child of the 90s, I do not miss edgy 90s shit that just made you feel bad for the sake of feeling bad. Yeah lets take Batman, the character known for his unbreakable iron-clad sense of right and wrong and have him fuck not only his adopted son's fiancé, but a women who is the daughter of one of his best friends, and someone he's known since she was like 10. We'll call it the Woody Allen arc.
 

BrawlMan

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As much as I'm a child of the 90s, I do not miss edgy 90s shit that just made you feel bad for the sake of feeling bad. Yeah lets take Batman, the character known for his unbreakable iron-clad sense of right and wrong and have him fuck not only his adopted son's fiancé, but a women who is the daughter of one of his best friends, and someone he's known since she was like 10. We'll call it the Woody Allen arc.
Agreed. I did not read that many comics, other than Sonic, in the 90s, and I am glad I was able to avoid most of that bullshit. I did not even know about the Dark Age Comic until about 2002, but that age had already pass when I found out.
 

ObsidianJones

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*shrugs* i don't see it being any different than any other relationship in a supergroup, and given how fucking insane they can sometimes be the idea that "young single woman (probably with some daddy issues) falls in love with OBSCENELY RICH, older guy in a mentor role, with a troubled past and survivor's guilt, that she can try and save/cure with her magic vagina" is so true to life on so many levels, that I just really don't bat an eye at it.

Call me when they have Barbara become the gestation vessel for a guy to mind control and rape so he can be birthed inside her in another dimension to escape cosmic imprisonment. Until they do something like THAT with her and Bruce, I'll be over here having a coffee and considering it one of the most vanilla relationships to ever be in comics since the dawn of time :p
See Brawlman's Post here.

This college girl is head over heels and she's being toyed with an older adult.

Him screwing around and being noncommittal with Wonder Woman? Fine. Wonder Woman isn't a child. In fact, she's a warrior of 5 millennia.

Meanwhile, Batgirl is... well, a girl living out her fantasies as a costumed hero that happens to have physical excess to one of the most desirable bachelors on the planet. A child who's supposed to be focusing on her entire rest of her life in college who is swooning over her time playing dress up.

I'm not feeling it. It's not appropriate. And more over, I'm thinking about how I'd feel if that was my little girl. I'd want to knock Bruce Wayne out.

sidebar... NO ONE can figure out who Bruce Wayne is?! It obviously costs a lot of money to get all those gadgets, he has the direct body shape of Batman, and his sidekicks always seem to correspond with whatever street urchin Bruce Wayne adopted this week!

You know what's annoying? How many different takes and interpretations other characters are allowed to have. We can have a Superman who's completely against what we've all come to believe Superman to be. We have a more removed Wonder Woman than I've seen in decades. She's almost robotic. Aquaman's a frat bro. The Flash is... I'd say the geekiest he's ever been. Victor is pretty on brand.

And Batman must always be the Rock and inflappable bad ass.

This character vexes me so.
 
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Samtemdo8

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Honestly I'm just happy to see Herny Cavill as Superman and Batfleck for one last time, if only they kept them for the non-DCEU movies of Superman and Batman and others.
 

SilentPony

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Honestly I'm just happy to see Herny Cavill as Superman and Batfleck for one last time, if only they kept them for the non-DCEU movies of Superman and Batman and others.
I never thought they were bad in their roles. I did doubt Batfleck as first, but he ended up being solid, and that scene in Batman vs Superman where he rescues Martha(WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!) was one of the most badass Batman moments in film.
Honestly I'd rather they keep them on and replace everyone else if they're going to continue the DCEU.
 
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