Zack Snyder: Man of Steel Carnage is "Mythological"

Mr. Q

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Zack, I understand that certain mythology, Norse mythology in particular, is rather bleak. But don't use this as an excuse for fucking up Man of Steel and trying to cover your mistakes. The only reason WB hired you is that you, like Nolan and Goyer, were their comic book go-to-guys and they were too clueless/gutless to hire someone else that actually understood the character and the source material. It would be refreshing to hear a director come out and say "I had no idea what I was doing with this project but the big wigs already paid me, so I kept my mouth shut and tried to bull shit my way through it."
 

ellers07

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Stalydan said:
So am I the only one here who thinks that Man of Steel was actually pretty good? I do like the film for taking a bit of a more somber approach. I understand people who didn't like it but the majority of people who've seen it apart from me quite like it.
No, you're not alone. I would go so far as to say that Man of Steel is my favorite Superman movie. I mean the Christopher Reeve ones are classics and I grew up watching them, but they're also kind of weird. The time travel thing was always strange and out of place. And when did Superman get the power to erase peoples minds by kissing them? I like those movies, but they are a bit odd.

I'm not quite sure why everyone is opposed to violence in a Superman movie. It's not really accurate to call it sloppy violence either. Superman really did very little damage. The problem was the group of other supermen that wanted to destroy the human race. Superman saved as many people as he could when he wasn't busy getting pounded on by actual warriors. I thought this film was a breath of fresh air. It's about time we got to see Superman actually be super and not just thwart Lex Luthor's dastardly real estate schemes.

To each their own. Personally, I can't wait until the next.
 

iniudan

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Ukomba said:
When Superman has a higher human casualty body count in 1 movie than Vegeta in all of DBZ, you have an issue.
May I remember you that Vegeta destroyed planet Arlia in episode 11, followed by quite a few death by crashing in East city (which Nappa then proceeded to wipe out), then there is the Namekian village and finally his rampage in Majin form. Add to that all the minion and guy with actual name. And all his kill are intentional except for the crash and the trucker his attack come to kill, after 18 deflected it.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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considering Superman is capable of mass destruction without even trying, it's logical he's going to cause collateral damage. However, he also doesn't cause collateral loss of life. All the damage just gives a sense of scale of just how powerful he is and what level he's on compared to everyone else in the world.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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All that movie did was show how much trouble he'd save everyone if he just snapped necks left and right. Lex will be a joke since any misery he'd cause would be stopped by a quick neck-snap.

In fact, modern Superman could save the court system time and money by snapping necks! Three guys run into a bank "Ok, put the money in the bag and no one will get hur--" SNAP CRACKLE POP

He'd be snapping more necks than SCP-173! Ohh, better yet; fuck batman, make it Superman VS SCP-682
 

DoctorM

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It's a shame he wasn't trying to emulate, you know, Superman!?

Of course everyone knows you can't make a modern movie based on old comic characters while being true to the comic's style and characters.
Just ask Marvel how badly that has been working out for them.
 

roguewriter

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This is Zack Snyder. In other words everything he said can be translated as, "Well. I thought it would look cool." Seriously, he's a visual director, not a story teller. He just doesn't get *characters*; it doesn't feel like he's able to understand any complex element of them outside of how good he can make them look on camera.

Don't get me wrong, he's not Michael Bay awful when it comes to "sexy ladies, shiney explosions" run amok, but when it comes to getting to the heart of a character like Superman and how he should always be seen in a story about hope, he doesn't comprehend it. What he sees is a God that will allow him to wreak destruction on a Biblical (or mythological) level and have justification for it.

For the record I didn't think Man of Steel was a bad film. Clark being kind of lost in the wake of not understanding himself and losing many important things that gave him direction was understandable. But lacking was the moment of him realizing who he needs to be and rising as the aforementioned symbol of hope who would never allow what happens to Metropolis to actually happen.

Instead we got a depiction of Superman that is counter to everything we know and believe the Hero to be for the sake of making him seem "real". It's another example of Warner Bros. entrusting someone with a "pedigree" who really doesn't understand the icon their working with or what they mean to fans. Look at the Ben Affleck debacle. 'Nuff said.
 

Tanthius

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Seriously, the haters of this movie basically all say the same thing in different ways. Superman wasn't an unrelatable god-man. I'm not kidding, they have this issue with the city fight causing so much devastation and they can only justify it by saying he could have "X". No, he couldn't. Just stop. This movie actually made Superman work for a win, he couldn't just throw his S at someone or fly around the world to reverse time. This Superman can't just win cause he's Superman and that's all that matters, reducing any villain or plot to meaningless wastes of time. Superman can't stand for hope and he can't be relatable if he can't be beat, and can always save everyone, every time. If you want Super-God and not Superman, go read the trash DC usually puts in his own comics where he bench presses the hearts of dwarf stars and gives Darkseid nuggies because he's a waste of overpowered space. This was a realistic take on a character who has rarely seen realism of any form. Snyder did get the core of the character right, fanboys just couldn't handle Superman having a single flaw, just less the same amount as anyone else.
 

roguewriter

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Tanthius said:
Seriously, the haters of this movie basically all say the same thing in different ways. Superman wasn't an unrelatable god-man. I'm not kidding, they have this issue with the city fight causing so much devastation and they can only justify it by saying he could have "X". No, he couldn't. Just stop. This movie actually made Superman work for a win, he couldn't just throw his S at someone or fly around the world to reverse time. This Superman can't just win cause he's Superman and that's all that matters, reducing any villain or plot to meaningless wastes of time. Superman can't stand for hope and he can't be relatable if he can't be beat, and can always save everyone, every time. If you want Super-God and not Superman, go read the trash DC usually puts in his own comics where he bench presses the hearts of dwarf stars and gives Darkseid nuggies because he's a waste of overpowered space. This was a realistic take on a character who has rarely seen realism of any form. Snyder did get the core of the character right, fanboys just couldn't handle Superman having a single flaw, just less the same amount as anyone else.
Right. Because Marvel needed to destroy all of New York while the Avengers battled an *army* of Alien Invaders with High Tech weapons and Leviathan beasts. You know, The Avengers. The Team of superpowered beings who have a *God* and an indestructible Hulk in their roster. I mean, they couldn't do anything to keep New York from being destroyed, right? And there wasn't anything real about that film, no? Senseless destruction does not equate "real", nor does depicting a *Superhero* who isn't anything like his most revered depictions.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Jul 15, 2009
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ellers07 said:
Stalydan said:
So am I the only one here who thinks that Man of Steel was actually pretty good? I do like the film for taking a bit of a more somber approach. I understand people who didn't like it but the majority of people who've seen it apart from me quite like it.
No, you're not alone. I would go so far as to say that Man of Steel is my favorite Superman movie. I mean the Christopher Reeve ones are classics and I grew up watching them, but they're also kind of weird. The time travel thing was always strange and out of place. And when did Superman get the power to erase peoples minds by kissing them? I like those movies, but they are a bit odd.

I'm not quite sure why everyone is opposed to violence in a Superman movie. It's not really accurate to call it sloppy violence either. Superman really did very little damage. The problem was the group of other supermen that wanted to destroy the human race. Superman saved as many people as he could when he wasn't busy getting pounded on by actual warriors. I thought this film was a breath of fresh air. It's about time we got to see Superman actually be super and not just thwart Lex Luthor's dastardly real estate schemes.

To each their own. Personally, I can't wait until the next.
Same here, after all, when he's faced with more then one person with similar amount of power, shits bound to get messed up. Plus he will learn from it, in theory, he should be better at collateral damage control in the next one. The bit I find funny, is how people act like he's never wrecked a city before during a battle with a big bad.


In just one move, he punches the guy through about 5-6 buildings by my count then levels a city block with slamming him down and that's just one part of a fight.

Man of Steel has its issues, but I still really liked it. Pacing could have been a bit better and having a few more happy moments would have been nice too, to make it a bit more of an uplifting film. Hopefully we will see them improve upon the less dark aspects of Supermans life from here on out.

The other complaints I did see a fair mount was
how Superman just kills Zod. Here we have an enemy tring to kill a family (I think it was a family) and Supes has him in a headlock. The battle went on for ages, and it wasn't the only one that day for him either. I get the feeling he was exhausted and used every last ounce of his fighting strength to kill Zod before he would end up losing hold and see that family die. It was an enemy that even stated, he would kill every human on the planet, he would never stop.

As for the taking the fight elsewhere thing I've seen people complain he chose not to do, he could have moved the fight to somewhere with less people. Try doing that when you're wrestling a guy just as strong as you, he will resist and try direct it back at people to keep the carnage going, not to mention Zod was military, Kal was just a brawler with no real training as of yet.

roguewriter said:
Right. Because Marvel needed to destroy all of New York while the Avengers battled an *army* of Alien Invaders with High Tech weapons and Leviathan beasts. You know, The Avengers. The Team of superpowered beings who have a *God* and an indestructible Hulk in their roster. I mean, they couldn't do anything to keep New York from being destroyed, right? And there wasn't anything real about that film, no? Senseless destruction does not equate "real", nor does depicting a *Superhero* who isn't anything like his most revered depictions.
I think Tanthius meant a more realistic version, not completely realistic. I would have said a "more serious take" on him as far as the films go, not something I am saying, but would have said in that position. I do agree with you point though, I loved the Avengers, the off switch for the bad guys was disappointing though. I like both films, but yes I do see the flaws in Man of Steel, I'm not blind to them and I'm hoping the next one is better.

Covarr said:
A far better obstacle for Superman to overcome, in my opinion, would be using the threat of accidental property/people damage to interfere with his ability to make full use of his abilities. "I can't keep up because I'd have to destroy these buildings and might accidentally hurt someone".
He only just became superman though, perhaps that's the sort of lessons he will have learned for the next film/s. He's had to learn a big lesson and there will be people angry at him for what happened in the first one as well, they have the potential to use the problems with the first film to make the next one better.
 

The Great JT

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It wasn't mythological, it was a betrayal. Superman should not kill. In fact, I think it was Superman himself who once said, "No one has the right to kill. Not Mxysptlk, not Superman, ESPECIALLY not Superman." Whatever happened to that guy anyway? That was a guy that I want to be like, not this guy who has to question his every action and wonder if using your insane godlike powers to save lives and help people is the right thing to do.

Seriously love 'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?'. Alan Moore deserves all the praise he gets.
 

Something Amyss

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Ukomba said:
Have you seen DBZ? Every main character has been killed at least once The entire Planet Earth was destroyed twice. When they first arrived on Earth Napa Nuked an entire city. The wishes make it easier to let characters rack up huge body counts and do absurd amounts of collateral damage because they can be wished back.
Not to mention, it's Japanese in origin. Even in kid's cartoons, they kill people. Some are downright violent.

I grew up on shit like Voltron, where they had to hide the deaths of the Japanese counterparts. I mean, seriously. Cartoons over here may be different, but jeez.

AzrealMaximillion said:
Its was because the violence was careless and sloppy, which isn't Superman's modus operandi.
I always wanted to see a story where Superman had to learn to be a good person. Modern tellings of Superman have him being a boy scout practically since birth. I hear the new Action Comics did this for an issue or two, but from the trailers, I was hoping maybe we'd get that.

If that were the case, I could accept him being sloppy. but the inconsistency of tone and the lack of any unifying thread?

No, this isn't it.

Just saying.

Jasper van Heycop said:
I didn't get outraged at the violence in MoS, I was too bored by the failed editing to notice. Every single fight scene drags on way too long. You can easily cut an hour of fight scene out of the movie and it would still get its message across.
Which is funny, because the promotional material acted like you'd die if there wasn't a new scene every split second.

DoctorM said:
It's a shame he wasn't trying to emulate, you know, Superman!?
Which, of course, is already based in mythology, so....

roguewriter said:
This is Zack Snyder. In other words everything he said can be translated as, "Well. I thought it would look cool."
Soulless spectacle, indeed.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Jan 24, 2009
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I almost thought of not bothering to even comment on this, since this horse has been already flogged to death, raised as a zombie, and then flogged into tiny rotting wriggly pieces. But I really don't get why people wanted to see Superman in a movie that's an origin story just be happy-go-lucky and perfect from the get-go. It was the first time he'd had to use his powers on such a scale as he did, of course he couldn't save everyone. And it's not like he had a choice to do otherwise: Zod was very clearly bent on the destruction on Earth, and seemed to be getting more and more dangerous over the course of the movie.

And speaking of the excessive destruction caused in the movie: there's an opportunity for future material there. Despite him seeming happy at the end of MoS, maybe he hasn't yet realized the amount of damage he inadvertedly caused. Maybe he does in the sequel, and starts to doubt himself. Stop being Superman? Leave Earth? Something else? There's lots of interesting places to go there.

I liked Man of Steel a lot. It actually made Superman interesting to me, and I'm excited about the sequel. Sue me.
Aiddon said:
considering Superman is capable of mass destruction without even trying, it's logical he's going to cause collateral damage. However, he also doesn't cause collateral loss of life. All the damage just gives a sense of scale of just how powerful he is and what level he's on compared to everyone else in the world.
Agreed.
The Great JT said:
It wasn't mythological, it was a betrayal. Superman should not kill. In fact, I think it was Superman himself who once said, "No one has the right to kill. Not Mxysptlk, not Superman, ESPECIALLY not Superman." Whatever happened to that guy anyway? That was a guy that I want to be like, not this guy who has to question his every action and wonder if using your insane godlike powers to save lives and help people is the right thing to do.

Seriously love 'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?'. Alan Moore deserves all the praise he gets.
Okay. In the movie literally the lives of the entire human race can be saved by killing one person, and Supes is the only one who can do so. But noooo, "Superman does not kill". What the hell is he going to do? Take Zod out to dinner and kindly convince him to leave? A Superman who does not kill in a movie with such high stakes as MoS is about as convincing as the Adam West Batman series as a serious interpretation of the character.
 

Atmos Duality

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The "Mythological Carnage" wasn't the biggest problem of the film, intended or not.
It's the awful pacing, bland as paste characters, and disjointed force fed character development.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Its still something that would have been better off as 2 films, the first one a bit less gritty and dull getting him together with Ms Lane and being an annoyance to the military the 2nd one dealing with his birth and Zod.

Really DC needs to learn from Marvel.... I am so tired of hyper realism in films....
 
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Judging by all the feedback, I have to say I am extremely grateful to be someone who doesn't care about Superman's character in the slightest.

I got to see a fun action superhero movie with fantastic, apocalyptic fight scenes, but I can only imagine how I would feel if it was a character I was invested in.

Snyder is still kind of an idiot though. If you want to make a big explosion movie fine, but don't try to pretend it's some kind of meaningful statement about mythology and culture.
 

runic knight

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As far as I can tell the problem with Superman in a nut shell.

The character is suppose to represent the something akin to a boyscout with superpowers. This idea of a humble, good man who has untold power and uses it for the betterment of mankind. A personification of what America saw itself as in the world: A world power with home grown morality and roots.

As the character aged in comics, they explored the morality. One topic touched on a lot was the guilt that such responsibility would induce. Superman is almost always depicted as holding back because he is aware of this strength and that it can hurt others. That boyscout mentality never left the character through this and instead just because a way to explore new topics, such as how he would deal with collateral damage, challenges he couldn't overcome (though would later with help because comic logic), the limits to his capacity to be everywhere at once and other things. The morality stayed pretty consistent, with a strong opposition to killing, and a selflessness if the alternative meant innocents hurt. Even the stories whee it was a "needs of the many" scenario, it would dwell on how that torn him up inside. This core, which was always suppose to be taught and engrained in him like America itself believed it ingrained it onto all it's good youths, rarely faltered unless you had poor writers behind the wheel. (most any time superman appears as a means to show how bad ass batman is, Frank miller).

The movie however seemed to paint superman as someone who casts that aside in a super hissyfit. Yes, one can argue the morality of the action. Yes one can try to explain it as an inexperienced superman's mistake that he will learn from. But to many fans, that is going too far backwards. That is not just rewriting the character, not just retreading ground that was old 5 decades ago, but betraying the core morality the character had fairly consistently within his own universe. People get mad anytime some asshole writes Sups as a government lackey, this is the same sort of, hate to put it this way, betrayal of expectations of the fans. At least that was how I understood it.


It wasn't even the destruction or the scale so much as how the character was put in the situation and reacted. How hard would it have been to even throw a scene in there where he tells someone to evacuate the place, or show a seen of people fleeing? Yes, that would be unrealistic, but this is a comic book movie, and even beyond that, this is the guy referred to as the "Big Blue Boyscout". The humble and wholesome persona. Going ape shit and causing (not just being knocked into it) as much collateral damage as was done just feels wrong to fans of superman for so long. Hell, often a villain uses his selflessness as a means to get a leg up, knowing he will try to save the people first, worry about the fight later.

So, from all of that the movie really seemed to sell out the character's character for the sake of more excessive explosions and destruction ala Transformer movies. Not surprised by backlash to be honest.