Zack Snyder: The Force Awakens Killed More Civilians Than Man of Steel

votemarvel

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Win32error said:
You know what, I rewatched Man of Steel recently and I don't really have a problem with that final fight scene. Yes, you cold argue that superman should've tried to take it somewhere else, but seeing them destroy Metropolis is a lot more interesting than seeing them fight in a desert or something.
If you can't make a fight scene between two people on Superman's power level interesting without having to destroy a City to do it, then I think there is a flaw in the movie making there.

Baresark said:
That particular complaint about Man of Steel is balls to the wall idiotic. Listen, the movie had problems, but that is literally the worst nit picking I have ever heard. In the Death of Superman, Superman spent his entire time fighting Doomsday, who was rampaging all over the place. Lots of people died.
And during that fight Superman attempted to take the fight out of Metropolis, he took hits he didn't need to in order to try and do that.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Fail. No other way to put it.

Even worse, early viewers of BvS are saying that there is even more needless destruction than MoS.
 

josemlopes

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But how could superman steer Zod away from civilians when he just wanted to kill them?

In DBZ the bad guys want to kill Goku or whoever is the special target.

Fuck this, I liked the movie
 

Therumancer

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People always seem to miss the point. Superman has had a lot of fights like that in various versions of the character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BJ1-trrgqc

That's pretty much the "mic drop" to the Zack Snyder criticisms, given that it's not even that unique a situation. If you take a look on youtube for Superman clips of brawls from the various cartoons you'll see tons of damage being done. The comics are nothing if not worse when you look at his entire continuity.

This is not to say that I don't understand the point, but super hero battles in general have a long history of being incredibly destructive and causing tons of collateral damage. Yes, heroes will save people if they can and happen to be right there, but that isn't always the case. This has been a big part of the underlying logic behind things like Marvel's "Mutant Menace" and the old "Damage Control Inc." (which existed specifically to repair the damage after block-leveling super hero fights). So pretty much you can't say Marvel has been more responsible. If anything the fact that they show post apocalyptic futures where supers got out of control (fighting norms or otherwise) says a lot. In DC-Wildstorm half the point of "Stormwatch" it seemed was to punkhammer super heroes that got out of line, that turned into "The Authority" which had super heroes dictating terms to the world which when written well was one of the more compelling titles I ever read.

I didn't like Zack Snyder's way of doing "Man Of Steel" either but for different reasons, I think trying to humanize Superman is a bad idea. If anything the big fight with Zod and the other Kryptonians are pretty much live action/CGI versions of what those brawls are actually supposed to be like in a lot of cases. If the bad guy doesn't care about colleraral damage, it's not like Superman is a moron who is going to say "Drrr, well go ahead then", he's probably going to cause tons of it himself, but in an effort to minimize damage. If he can save someone who is right there, he'll do so, but otherwise when fighting at that level, yes.. tall buildings are going to be demolished with people inside of them. The Justice League goes at it in downtown Metropolis with Darkseid it's going to cause a huge mess.

At any rate, one reason why I use that clip when it comes up is that Captain Marvel is roughly on par with Superman (when written correctly) as is General Zod (being the same thing Superman is).

Now in some works like "Superman Vs. The Elite" (another Cartoon) it's clever to see Superman working ahead of the game and bringing out the Super Robots to do damage control (most people forget he has those as well, but at the same time that's where he conceptually planned things out, and the bad guys weren't all *that* bad and agreed to have their little duel on the moon specifically to avoid this kind of damage. Things moved to Metropolis when they were pretty much running away from him.

As a side not the so called "Elite" were an analogy to "The Authority" albeit changed around a lot to be far less sympathetic. DC owned Wildstorm. Also The Authority/Wildstorm in general did terrible, terrible, things to characters that were designed to look well known DC or Marvel characters, oftentimes in great numbers, so it was time for some creative "payback". Manchester Black is basically a re-arranged version of Wildstorm's "Jenny Sparks". This has nothing to do with anything important though, other than the fact that I mentioned "The Authority" in part because that's another book where civilians die in collateral damage, we have entire cities getting leveled by armies of super humans. Though again to be fair at one time when they were expecting it The Authority did manage to evacuate planet earth (the whole planet) for a fight.


I think it's most appropriate to say that a super HERO will not always save civilians and minimize collateral damage, they will do so when they can, but the difference is they aren't as callous about it. At the end of the day if some bad guy shows up who will kill/enslave everyone, losing a few buildings dodging say Darkseid's Omega Beams (which will slice them in half) and the assorted people inside or around those buildings is simply the cost of doing business. It needs to be weighted against the threat. Even in the slap fight between Captain MArvel and Superman above, one has to understand that Superman is doing this because he believes there is a threat to the entire city (I mean it's Lex bloody Luthor up to something) a few thousand people and their buildings vs. millions of people, it's easy math for Superman.

How realistic the writer is being is also a factor to consider with comics, the more "realistic" the more collateral damage. In a kid's comic it's okay to gloss over everything and have Superman or another hero do their thing and save everyone in cheesy, ultra-4 color, style. That kind of thing can be fun. However when your writing above that, there is no way super heroes and villains cutting loose isn't going to hurt anyone when you get to a certain level.

Superman is an icon, he tries harder than anyone else, but at the end of the day, especially as comics have grown up (even cartoons) you just can't have a perfect resolution. Zack was a bit too grimdark overall, but his fight scenes did sort of show what a battle like the one in that cartoon above might look like in the "real world"... and as I said, heroes smashing through walls, getting thrown through buildings, buildings falling over, random cars being used as weapons (some comics have even referenced super-hero insurance existing for this), that's all pretty typical company by company.
 

elvor0

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The_Darkness said:
Nope, Zack, the fact that the villains in another movie had a higher body count than your movie's hero (who just happens to be The Boy Scout, otherwise known as Superman...) is not really a valid defence of your movie.

It *is* kinda a valid criticism of The Force Awakens though - for largely unrelated reasons to why Zack's bringing it up. Hands up - who really *felt* those deaths in TFA? Who felt anything at all for the billions of completely non-characterised people who died in that scene?
Yeah that was one of my issues. It seems has no effect on the rest of the movie. We're never shown the New Republic in any form, we have no idea how heavy a blow that destruction was, or even how powerful the First Order is either. We're essentially being told that a game of chicken is going on, but we have no idea what cars are involved.
 

UsefulPlayer 1

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inu-kun said:
To be fair, after establishing a good amount of the movie showing there are stormtrooper who are essentialy brainwashed child soldiers, blowing the star killer or just killing the regular storm troopers seems harsh.
I think about this all the time. Because Fin had to be a Storm Trooper, I now have to consider Storm Troopers as victims. If anything, they are more victims than the Rebels. Oppressive government? How about being brainwashed your entire life to the point of having no identity except to be a killing machine. Waaaay worse.

On topic, I'm sure this has occurred to Zach Synder, but probably 10 seconds after he said this. Also, the criticism is that Man of Steel was too depressing. A solution could have been Superman saving people, but that is just one possible suggestion. But hey, if they were going for the depressing-but-then-inspirational-later look more power to them. I just wished they did it a little better.
 

Zetatrain

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josemlopes said:
But how could superman steer Zod away from civilians when he just wanted to kill them?

In DBZ the bad guys want to kill Goku or whoever is the special target.

Fuck this, I liked the movie
Yeah, the whole collateral damage thing never bothered me too much, because Zod made it clear right before the fight that he was going to make the people of Earth suffer. If he tried to lure Zod out of the city he would have most likely figured out Superman's intentions and would just head back to the city. Still, I think it's a valid criticism that it doesn't seem like Superman even tried to minimize the collateral damage, almost as if he didn't care.
 

Baresark

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votemarvel said:
Win32error said:
You know what, I rewatched Man of Steel recently and I don't really have a problem with that final fight scene. Yes, you cold argue that superman should've tried to take it somewhere else, but seeing them destroy Metropolis is a lot more interesting than seeing them fight in a desert or something.
If you can't make a fight scene between two people on Superman's power level interesting without having to destroy a City to do it, then I think there is a flaw in the movie making there.

Baresark said:
That particular complaint about Man of Steel is balls to the wall idiotic. Listen, the movie had problems, but that is literally the worst nit picking I have ever heard. In the Death of Superman, Superman spent his entire time fighting Doomsday, who was rampaging all over the place. Lots of people died.
And during that fight Superman attempted to take the fight out of Metropolis, he took hits he didn't need to in order to try and do that.
While that is true, he did not ever really get the fight out of the city. The act of Zod started to terraform the planet killed countless thousands, first of all. Couple that with the fact that the most important thing was actually stopping Zod because if he did not, all of humanity would die.

Also, I call BS on your reply to the other guy. If you want to show off the power levels we are talking about, a city getting destroyed in the fight is literally the best way to do it. I daresay, it would almost be impossible to make that fight interesting or have any kind of impact unless it took place in a city.

No, that is still a BS criticism. He showed he ultimately cared about the people of earth by not siding with and then killing Zod, clearly showing the last thing he wanted to do was kill Zod, who gave him no choice. Choose an innocent family or Zod, he chose the innocent family. If he truly didn't care about the people of earth and had in fact gotten none of his parents values, then he would have just chosen to join his own people.

NOTE: I'm not saying it couldn't have been done better, that is not the point of my particular critique of this.... eh, critique. I'm simply saying that as an attack on the movie, it holds very little rational weight.
 

COMaestro

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Zack misses the point, as pretty much everyone has already stated, so I won't go into that.

I was okay with Man of Steel, but I understand the complaints it gets. If Superman had just been shown attempting to move the fight to a less populated location, most of these issues would disappear, but that didn't happen.

Sniper Team 4 said:
The_Darkness said:
It *is* kinda a valid criticism of The Force Awakens though - for largely unrelated reasons to why Zack's bringing it up. Hands up - who really *felt* those deaths in TFA? Who felt anything at all for the billions of completely non-characterised people who died in that scene?
I kind of did, and still do to this day, but it has nothing to do with the movie. My mind wonders on stuff like that. How many mothers just died breast feeding their newborn? How many kids were excited to be getting out of school for the day, only to be murdered for no reason besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time? How many people on that planet may have actually been loyal to the First Order, or at least The Empire, and just couldn't get enough funds together to get off world? How many normal people who just care about waking up, getting to work on time, and making enough money to survive and couldn't care less about who is in charge higher up just died because some dick pushed a button? And that makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with literally every single person on Starkiller base. None of them even blinked as they willing slaughtered billions of people, probably the biggest death toll in the history of the entire universe. Worse, some of them cheered. That makes you a monster in my book. You are no longer human, alien, or even an animal. Monsters, every one of them, and every one of them deserves to die.
Anyway, like I said, my mind wonders on these sorts of things, probably more than most.

On to the topic at hand. For a second, I raised my eyebrow and thought, "Uh...no. A handful of villagers is NOT more than all the people in the city." It took me a second to remember what Starkiller base did, so then I was like, "Okay, he's right I guess..."
Sadly my mind wonders on stuff like this, but in regards to the real world rather than fantasy. Especially considering recent events...
 

Daelin Dwin

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While it's a kind of silly comparison its not actually wrong. Most the collateral damage is caused by the villains, or by the military's failed attempts to engage the villains, or by Superman being whacked about by Zod. The clear moments of Superman causing collateral damage is the first time he smashes into Zod and when he brings down Zod's ship. This was also one of Superman's first major battles with an equally powered foe, so its unlikely a farm boy from Kansas is aware of the proper fighting etiquette required to minimize collateral damage.

That said they smartly made said destruction a plot point of the sequel, so why is Snyder even bringing this up?
 

bastardofmelbourne

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everyone here bashing on snyder for the comparison is forgetting something.

Starkiller base. It was the size of a planet. It *was* a planet. Presumably, it had civilians on it. Civilians who died when Poe Dameron blew it up.

It's a weaponised planet, so the military action is morally justifiable (and unavoidable, considering that it was essentially planet-scale self defence), but it doesn't change the fact that the collateral damage caused by Poe Dameron and Co. is an order of magnitude larger than that caused by Superman.

- Superman wrecks most of Metropolis fighting Zod.
- The Resistance blows up an entire planet fighting the First Order.

One is bigger than the other.

This isn't a new point. Clerks was talking about civilian contractors on the Death Star(s) years and years ago. It's a big stretch to say that construction projects of that size are solely manned and maintained by enemy combatants.
 

happyninja42

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bastardofmelbourne said:
everyone here bashing on snyder for the comparison is forgetting something.

Starkiller base. It was the size of a planet. It *was* a planet. Presumably, it had civilians on it. Civilians who died when Poe Dameron blew it up.
Why do you assume it had civilians on it? It's a military weapons platform. Those generally don't have a large civilian presence. I mean if we're actually going to go down the route of "real world logic" for this stuff. NOBODY on that planet should be alive. It's a mobile space station, meaning it's not always in the presence of a sun. So it would freeze over quick. Also, suddenly blasting out all of the energy of a freaking star from the interior of your base would instantly cook any atmosphere you had, and blind/irradiate all of those stormtroopers who were in visible range of the outgassing of a stellar core.

Now I know we don't want to go down that road, because Star Wars has always said "Fuck you" to actual physics and cosmology, and I see no reason it should start paying attention to that shit now. It is never stated that there are civilians on the surface, it's not "currently under construction", so that fan theory is out the window. It was a fully functional Space Nazi battle platform. And from a narrative viewpoint, you can be pretty sure that there were nothing but Space Nazi's on that thing.


bastardofmelbourne said:
It's a weaponised planet, so the military action is morally justifiable (and unavoidable, considering that it was essentially planet-scale self defence), but it doesn't change the fact that the collateral damage caused by Poe Dameron and Co. is an order of magnitude larger than that caused by Superman.
Total speculation. There is no evidence in the movie that there are civilians. Just because it's the size of a planet, doesn't mean it's inhabited by anything other than Space Nazis. Whereas in Metropolis, we clearly see civilians all over the place, running for their lives.


bastardofmelbourne said:
This isn't a new point. Clerks was talking about civilian contractors on the Death Star(s) years and years ago. It's a big stretch to say that construction projects of that size are solely manned and maintained by enemy combatants.
The fact that it isn't a new point doesn't make it a correct point. It's a fan theory, made by Kevin Smith of all people. It's hardly verified in any way. Besides, why would they need outside labor? They've got enough personnel to literally staff a galactic size fleet. If you think the Empire didn't have their equivalent of the Corp of Engineers, then you don't know much about how the military works. They don't rely on outside resources much, if at all. Not to mention, this world has droids. And not just droids slave labor droids. They could use millions of robots to build their stuff, and probably do, as droids are ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe. To say they must have civilians is just silly.
 

happyninja42

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BuildsLegos said:
Extended Universe material confirmed the undeniable long ago: even the first Death Star had hundreds of food courts, apartments, and all assortment of vital service crews to ensure that only the most essential traffic happened around it. Getting cold between stars is easily compensated with an artificial heating network; the great thing about science-fiction is that you can hand-wave nearly any nonsense as "they have a technology for that". The second Death Star wasn't even complete, making it even more obvious that several thousand construction workers died so that Endor could live.

Starkiller Base, judging by the snowy forest, had at least a dying ecosystem, so I imagine that's where the army was getting most of their food.
The EU isn't canon, and in fact, never really was. It was published fan fiction that nobody at Lucasfilms bothered to retcon at all.

And you actually defeated your own argument with that "they have a tech for that" statement. If they have a tech to explain being able to warm an entire freaking planet in the utter cold of the vacuum of space, then they've got a tech to feed themselves, and build their stations without needing civilians. I mean if we're just handwaving away any nonsense, you don't get to cherry pick which things do and don't get hand waved away.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Happyninja42 said:
A lot of what you just said is a general response to the Death Star contractor fan theory, which is fine. They're good points which people have thoroughly debated in the years since Clerks. The problem is that the Star Wars movies - original and TFFA - deliberately don't address the question at all because it's a very troubling one that distracts from the otherwise simple good vs. evil narrative.

There's nothing in the movies that suggest that, for example, all of the construction of the Death Star/Starkiller Base was done by droids. There's nothing to suggest that they weren't built by droids. The films dodge the point entirely, because it's a complex one that is pretty hard to answer.

I mean, even if they were built by droids, another big ethical question that Star Wars glosses over is the moral status of droids as artificially intelligent beings. The protagonists them as if they're sentient and self-aware, but the universe simultaneously considers them expendable labourers.

That's a completely different issue, but my point is that Star Wars doesn't - and arguably shouldn't have to - address those questions. From that perspective, what Zack Snyder's saying is essentially "if no-one questions Star Wars, why are they questioning Man of Steel." You might answer that with the fact that Superman should be held to a higher standard than the protagonists of Star Wars, but Snyder is essentially asking why should Superman be held to that standard when, ultimately, both he and the protagonists of TFFA are the "good guys."

Now I too think Man of Steel should have given more consideration to Superman minimising collateral damage - I feel that Age of Ultron set the bar for how the topic should be handled - but the problem I found in this thread was that virtually everyone was wilfully ignoring the Death Star contractor problem so that they could bash on Zack Snyder for "missing the point."

I found that somewhat ironic.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Snyder is actually comparing apples to oranges?

Just when I think his intelligence couldn't drop any lower, he says stuff like this.
 

Chester Rabbit

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Okay Zack, here's the thing. Superman, fuck SUPERMAN!! Wasn't in Star Wars, accepitible loss and collateral damage in war is just a fact of battle among us squishy simple mortals.

Superman! Can lift fucking continents! Wind time back by flying around the world really face, Fly fast faster than you fucking name it!Can do AAAAANYTHING!!

Bullshit half the shit in your shitty movie wasn't avoidable.
Fuck "Superman" Didn't even make any attempt to move the battle. You have him flying villains through! buildings. Smashing them into gas tanks and nonchalantly hoping over oil tankers and letting them crash into buildings and blowing them the fuck up.

Fuck as bad as Superman 4 was at least when it came down to it he was still concerned about civilian lives and tried to figure out a way to stop the villain from causing anymore destruction.

Fuck you and your vapid pubescent angsty bullshit pretentious, preachy shitty "Superman" movie!
 

bastardofmelbourne

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008Zulu said:
Snyder is actually comparing apples to oranges?

Just when I think his intelligence couldn't drop any lower, he says stuff like this.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. He isn't comparing apples to oranges. The comparison is debatable, but still apt. Why do we treat both Superman and Luke as good guys when both of them caused colossal collateral damage stopping a genocidal maniac? Why do we expect better from Superman films than we do from Star Wars films? They're good questions, and everyone - including the author of the article, who should know better - is ignoring them in favour of "hate on Zack Snyder," which seems to be popular at the moment.

And then criticising Snyder for missing the point, which I find hilarious.

Chester Rabbit said:
I don't mean to be rude to the above poster, but that rant is basically the Internet at its worst. It's a string of insults and exclamation marks instead of an opinion. (Sincerity mode: I genuinely don't mean to be rude, I'm sure you're a reasonable person when you're not criticising Superman films on the internet.)

I'd be more annoyed by the trend, except Moviebob did exactly that in his review of the movie (his words: "a malignant, puss-bleeding cancer on the ass of its own genre") so maybe that's just how movie criticism has to work these days.