Zelda Is Not An RPG

[YukoValis]

Zelda games are not RPGs because there is no significant grindable mechanics whereby the player can perform repeated tasks to decrease the difficulty of certain tasks. All improvements and upgrades that the player can accumulate are based on several one-time events, many of which are simply alterations to the gameplay features rather than optional increases. The only grindability that comes from Zelda games is the way the player can collect items from enemies and grass although this mechanic is incredibly minor. This is not saying that RPGs require an exessive amount of grinding in order to succeed, but rather the game has options for the player to grind. In actual fact many RPGs do require grinding even if it is to such small extent that the only grinding requirement would be to fight the battles you find on your way, as long as there's an element of grind involves

I think your confusing MMORPG with RPG. RPG stands for role playing game, not grind-tastic game. RPG's are just adventure games where you gather items or stats to kill everyone that gets in your way bosses included. If it has items and strange new lands it's an RPG. Zelda then is a RPG.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

Zelda games are not RPGs because there is no significant grindable mechanics whereby the player can perform repeated tasks to decrease the difficulty of certain tasks. All improvements and upgrades that the player can accumulate are based on several one-time events, many of which are simply alterations to the gameplay features rather than optional increases. The only grindability that comes from Zelda games is the way the player can collect items from enemies and grass although this mechanic is incredibly minor. This is not saying that RPGs require an exessive amount of grinding in order to succeed, but rather the game has options for the player to grind. In actual fact many RPGs do require grinding even if it is to such small extent that the only grinding requirement would be to fight the battles you find on your way, as long as there's an element of grind involves

I think your confusing MMORPG with RPG. RPG stands for role playing game, not grind-tastic game. RPG's are just adventure games where you gather items or stats to kill everyone that gets in your way bosses included. If it has items and strange new lands it's an RPG. Zelda then is a RPG.

the game doesn't have to be "grind-tastic" to be "grindable" and the grindability of the game needs to have a somewhat important role

 

[martin's a madman]

Zelda games are not RPGs because there is no significant grindable mechanics whereby the player can perform repeated tasks to decrease the difficulty of certain tasks. All improvements and upgrades that the player can accumulate are based on several one-time events, many of which are simply alterations to the gameplay features rather than optional increases. The only grindability that comes from Zelda games is the way the player can collect items from enemies and grass although this mechanic is incredibly minor. This is not saying that RPGs require an exessive amount of grinding in order to succeed, but rather the game has options for the player to grind. In actual fact many RPGs do require grinding even if it is to such small extent that the only grinding requirement would be to fight the battles you find on your way, as long as there's an element of grind involves

I think your confusing MMORPG with RPG. RPG stands for role playing game, not grind-tastic game. RPG's are just adventure games where you gather items or stats to kill everyone that gets in your way bosses included. If it has items and strange new lands it's an RPG. Zelda then is a RPG.

the game doesn't have to be "grind-tastic" to be "grindable"

Haha, well it seems pretty clear that you don't really want people's thoughts of this as much as you want to just argue your own. Which is fine of course, who doesn't like a good argument after all? But, really, you aren't going to change your mind and no one who disagrees with you will either. Even if they do it's not a real victory anyways. Just agree to disagree on this issue. With what someone said earlier, doesn't matter what you call it, it is what it is.

 

[archvile93]

In Zelda games, you role-play as Link as you follow his story. This is by definition role-playing.

But by that definition, Half-Life 2 is an RPG because you play as Gordon. I could also claim that MW2 is an RPG as well. I believe what defines an RPG is hgow the story plays out. An RPG is one whre you can make choices that affect the story (though not neccessarily the end result).

 

[TOGSolid]

RPG's are just adventure games where you gather items or stats to kill everyone that gets in your way bosses included. If it has items and strange new lands it's an RPG. Zelda then is a RPG.

So first person shooters are RPGs then? Run around collecting guns to beat the bosses in 'strange new lands?'
Maybe even real time strategy games can count to since you gain new units and abilities as you go along so that you can get through the story and beat ever increasingly difficult challenges however you see fit?

I think it's pretty clear you have no clue what a RPG even is.

Playing Zelda in 1985 pretty much everyone considered it an rpg.

No, we didn't. Anyone interested in RPGs was busy playing D and D at the time.

The one that irks me is JRPGs being called that. They are fantasy games. Just because they simulate the very barest of bones in old pen and paper RPGs in that they have stats and levels, all you're doing is following a predetermined path and not role playing the character at all.

You, I don't know you, but I like you. Care for a spot of tea while we discuss the socio political impact of the new form of music known as jazz?

This person is spot on. You have to be able to make series of actual decisions that impact how the story turns out in order for the game to be a RPG (and by plot changing I mean actual, meaningful shit. Not just whether to let Meryl live or die since it didn't change anything.) No, your stats don't count. All stats and class selection do is determine how EFFICIENTLY you go through the game, just like how proper weapon choice determines how efficiently you go through a FPS. The capability to make plot changing decisions is the ONLY thing that determines whether the game is a RPG or not. If the game isn't constantly offering you choices, then guess what. You're not playing a RPG.

Discussion over.

 

[Raykuza]

If we really wanted to get picky here (I assume we do as it seems to be the entire point of this topic), people should stop describing Zelda, Metroid, and the like as "adventure games" and start describing them as "action-adventure games." Adventure games are titles like Myst, Tales of Monkey Island, Heavy Rain, and Grim Fandango that have point-and-click gameplay. There is pretty much no action at all, and most of the focus is on story and puzzle solving. Action-adventure games are the one like Zelda, Metroid, Ninja Gaiden, etc.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

Zelda games are not RPGs because there is no significant grindable mechanics whereby the player can perform repeated tasks to decrease the difficulty of certain tasks. All improvements and upgrades that the player can accumulate are based on several one-time events, many of which are simply alterations to the gameplay features rather than optional increases. The only grindability that comes from Zelda games is the way the player can collect items from enemies and grass although this mechanic is incredibly minor. This is not saying that RPGs require an exessive amount of grinding in order to succeed, but rather the game has options for the player to grind. In actual fact many RPGs do require grinding even if it is to such small extent that the only grinding requirement would be to fight the battles you find on your way, as long as there's an element of grind involves

I think your confusing MMORPG with RPG. RPG stands for role playing game, not grind-tastic game. RPG's are just adventure games where you gather items or stats to kill everyone that gets in your way bosses included. If it has items and strange new lands it's an RPG. Zelda then is a RPG.

the game doesn't have to be "grind-tastic" to be "grindable"

Haha, well it seems pretty clear that you don't really want people's thoughts of this as much as you want to just argue your own. Which is fine of course, who doesn't like a good argument after all? But, really, you aren't going to change your mind and no one who disagrees with you will either. Even if they do it's not a real victory anyways. Just agree to disagree on this issue. With what someone said earlier, doesn't matter what you call it, it is what it is.

You know I have heard several points made by people that I disagree with even though they agree with my conclusion. It's not that I'm completely unwilling to change my mind, its just that I have thought about stuff like this a lot, I mean I'm even doing my final year university project on game theory. So I have spent a lot of time on this stuff

 

[bakonslayer]

Ugh. This thread is still going? I told everybody the answer on the first page! People are confusing the genre of the gameplay to the genre of the plot.

GAMES ARE NOT MOVIES OR MUSIC.

Once more for all the people at home: Zelda's gameplay is a platformer and it's plot is an adventure game.

 

[thepj]

For some reason whenever I hear that people say that Zelda games are RPGs I getting REALLY ticked off by it. I want to hear other people's thoughts on this... I plan to make a video or write an article about htis because I'm really passionate about it and it just annoys me to no end. But in order to plan it out I need a good collection of general feedback (though I have some general and some incredibly idiotic feedback already) though first of all this is my take on it:

Zelda games are not RPGs because there is no significant grindable mechanics whereby the player can perform repeated tasks to decrease the difficulty of certain tasks. All improvements and upgrades that the player can accumulate are based on several one-time events, many of which are simply alterations to the gameplay features rather than optional increases. The only grindability that comes from Zelda games is the way the player can collect items from enemies and grass although this mechanic is incredibly minor. This is not saying that RPGs require an exessive amount of grinding in order to succeed, but rather the game has options for the player to grind. In actual fact many RPGs do require grinding even if it is to such small extent that the only grinding requirement would be to fight the battles you find on your way, as long as there's an element of grind involves

ok now let me spell out what an RPG is to you, it's a Roll Playing Game

that means that you play as the character that you customize, it does not mean that you do repetative grind, admitadly in the zelda games you only customize the name but that still means that it contains an aspect or two of an RPG, the zelda games are more like hybrids of adventure, action and RPG with RPG being just a small bit/

 

[Velocity Eleven]

People are confusing the genre of the gameplay to the genre of the plot.

GAMES ARE NOT MOVIES OR MUSIC

this

 

[mummy162]

Ummmm..... Does anyone remember Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link? That game definitely had levels and required quite a deal of grinding to start off.

 

[MBergman]

Wouldn't saying that kind of be like calling my bike a car just because I put a steering wheel on it? No a true RPG to me is a game where you can create your own character and actually make the choices for his or her behaviour throughout the game.

I agree with you 100%, but the problem is that by your definition, games that are commonly accepted as RPGs don't meet that criteria. Almost ALL JRPGs don't give you any sort of customization for your main characters, and you just walk them through their story. Personally, I'd like to make your definition of RPGs be the definition of RPGs, but we have nearly 30 years of various gameplay styles to set what a RPG is.

Fair enough some games that doesn't exactly meet the criteria might still be considered RPGs by me, so I'd go as far as calling it a guideline rather that an absolute rule. Conserning JRPGs, those I do not consider to be RPGs, but most are rather adventure games with heavy RPG influences. The reason for this is, pretty much what I stated before: yeah there's leveling and there is stats and different party set-ups, but there is no actual role-playing going on. That is, I never get to make any decisions conserning my main characters views or actions and that's why it's not really an RPG in my eyes.

http://ign64.ign.com/objects/000/000437.html

It says action-adventure. ACTION ADVENTURE!

Now you can stop arguing.

I agree with what you're saying, but that's such a broken argument!

"Look! Someone else is saying what I am saying!! Because that guy could never be wrong! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Zelda is the epitome of Adventure. Also, FIFTEEN QUID OMG

 

[CrystalShadow]

...

Honestly.

The definition of the game is action/adventure. (or at best, action RPG).

But everyone being so nitpicky about what constitutes an RPG should go back to basics.

Stats do NOT make an RPG, let alone grinding.

Story and character progression make an RPG.

Your character improves with time, and becomes more powerful.

Wether this is due to fighting alone, or something that makes sense in context... (Several pen& paper RPG's reward experience based on how well you got through the story, not your ability to fight monsters.)

So... Zelda...

Well, you get stronger as the game progresses, and it has a story which is a major focus of the game.
Also... (and this is amusing if you get into the history of D&D), you spend most of your time wandering around Dungeons.

By the definitions that RPG's started with, it's close enough.

It may not be what is generally thought of as an RPG computer game, but it has the main elements that define RPG's generally.

Turn-based combat is, after all, a contrivance born of necessity, and not at all required for a computer game.
It has a definable progression, based on known goals within the game (you gain 'hearts' primarily through completing dungeons - Eg. You get stronger, or 'level up')

It also has a lot of superficial tropes related to the RPG genre (which you'll notice with JRPG's), for instance, the NPC's in villages, and things like that

I notice some people bring up Metroid as a comparison; While it's certainly true that they are very similar in style (or at least, used to be) - There is a notable lack of any significant story elements there...
Metroid might have an intro, and an ending, but beyond that, it's really just you and the environment.
Zelda has a lot of people to talk to, and far more structure and context to what you're doing than the older metroid games ever did.

So... Bottom line, Zelda is not an RPG by the definitions of the computer game genre, but by the wider defining characteristics of RPG's, it is pretty close to one.
If you don't agree, perhaps you need a wider perspective on just what an RPG actually is...

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

I know that, but massive grinding is a defining part of MMORPG's.

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

Yes, but MMOs do tend to have a strict focus on the grind, to keep you playing, to make more money off of the player.

No playing with other people is the defining part of MMOs WoW and others like it have given it this grinding type image.

Some though have changed and made a different type altogether like Guild Wars which is a CORPG just because WoW is full of grinding doesn't mean that they all are.

OT: Zelda has become more of an action adventure game but I think it started out much more like a RPG than what it is like today.

Zelda is an adventure game. The one that irks me is JRPGs being called that. They are fantasy games. Just because they simulate the very barest of bones in old pen and paper RPGs in that they have stats and levels, all you're doing is following a predetermined path and not role playing the character at all.

Now Mass Effect, Fallout 1-3, the Elder Scrolls and Neverwinter Nights series? THOSE are roleplaying games. There is an overall story, but how you get there is your choice. They are YOUR characters that you roleplay. When was the last time you thought "hey, I'm gonna make Cloud be a evil badass this time around"? Never. But Fallout 3 character to be an evil sociopath? Almost everyone has tried that.

JRPGs are RPGs they are just a different style in that they more plot driven than WRPGs.
WRPGs are more customizable characters with more open ended worlds although less main plot reliant.

 

[Cherry Cola]

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

I know that, but massive grinding is a defining part of MMORPG's.

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

Yes, but MMOs do tend to have a strict focus on the grind, to keep you playing, to make more money off of the player.

No playing with other people is the defining part of MMOs WoW and others like it have given it this grinding type image.

Some though have changed and made a different type altogether like Guild Wars which is a CORPG just because WoW is full of grinding doesn't mean that they all are.

I've played Guild Wars, it has grinding.

I didn't say the defining part of an MMORPG is grinding, I said a defining part is.

 

[Socius]

In Zelda games, you role-play as Link as you follow his story. This is by definition role-playing.

if that was all there si to RPG's then all games are RPG

also: its an action adveture game, the lack of multiple choice and freedom makes sure of that

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

I know that, but massive grinding is a defining part of MMORPG's.

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

Yes, but MMOs do tend to have a strict focus on the grind, to keep you playing, to make more money off of the player.

No playing with other people is the defining part of MMOs WoW and others like it have given it this grinding type image.

Some though have changed and made a different type altogether like Guild Wars which is a CORPG just because WoW is full of grinding doesn't mean that they all are.

I've played Guild Wars, it has grinding.

I didn't say the defining part of an MMORPG is grinding, I said a defining part is.

Guild Wars has absolute minimal grinding you don't have to do any extra work to do anything I mean most people are level 20 and have plenty of money to buy max armor by the time they leave "Noob Island" of their respective campaign. Just by actually playing story you get all you need.
I understand what you said but I don't see grinding as a defining part of it I just see it as a part to it like every other RPG it doesn't define the genre by any stretch of the imagination but it has become so prevelant in copies that seems like it.

 

[Augg]

You take the role of Link....and you play a game about him....that makes it a role playing game lol

 

[Cherry Cola]

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

I know that, but massive grinding is a defining part of MMORPG's.

That is MMORPG's, not RPG's. RPG's don't need grinding to be RPG's.

You know that MMO stand for "massive multi player online" or something like that, right? The only difference in the definitions of RPG an MMORPG are that one is online.

Yes, but MMOs do tend to have a strict focus on the grind, to keep you playing, to make more money off of the player.

No playing with other people is the defining part of MMOs WoW and others like it have given it this grinding type image.

Some though have changed and made a different type altogether like Guild Wars which is a CORPG just because WoW is full of grinding doesn't mean that they all are.

I've played Guild Wars, it has grinding.

I didn't say the defining part of an MMORPG is grinding, I said a defining part is.

Guild Wars has absolute minimal grinding you don't have to do any extra work to do anything I mean most people are level 20 and have plenty of money to buy max armor by the time they leave "Noob Island" of their respective campaign. Just by actually playing story you get all you need.
I understand what you said but I don't see grinding as a defining part of it I just see it as a part to it like every other RPG it doesn't define the genre by any stretch of the imagination but it has become so prevelant in copies that seems like it.

Guild Wars still has grinding. You're not going to change my opinion on a game I've actually played.