ZeniMax Sues Oculus VR Over Stolen Trade Secrets

[Naqel]

I'm hoping this fails on all counts.

I'm actually hoping for the opposite.

Partially because I facebook.
Primarily because I'd hate to see ZeniMax as a villain.

We lost so many to the dark side already, we don't need another one.
I'm running out of publishers whose games I'm still allowed to buy without feeling bad about it.

 

[Nikolaz72]

"Intellectual property forms the foundation of our business,"
Founding your business on something that isnt a legal concept - always the best way to make sure you win in court!

They are enforceable.

then your legal system has failed.
They shouldnt be. What i coded on my own time should not belong to the company, only what i did while im working for them.

Thank Thomas Jefferson for that one. He was the biggest patent troll of all that ever was, patent Trolls have always had a lot of influence in the States, and they have had a lot of say in the creation of laws on the area.

Hence the system favors people with a lot of money who patent everything (even with no intention of doing anything with it) and favors companies treating employees like slaves.

 

[Mangod]

"Intellectual property forms the foundation of our business,"
Founding your business on something that isnt a legal concept - always the best way to make sure you win in court!

Hell, I'm not even sure they'd be enforceable since what you make in your own home on your own time is not their business. If they're not paying you to make it, they don't own it.

They are enforceable.

then your legal system has failed.
They shouldnt be. What i coded on my own time should not belong to the company, only what i did while im working for them.

Well, I'm going to ruin the US Justice System for you. CGP Grey, take it away!

 

[Starke]

Hell, I'm not even sure they'd be enforceable since what you make in your own home on your own time is not their business. If they're not paying you to make it, they don't own it.

They are enforceable.

Well, I'm going to ruin the US Justice System for you. CGP Grey, take it away!

Yeah, so... That's not what we're talking about. The video, in case you're confused, is about criminal law, this is a civil case. Second, and your video does mention it, Judges can set aside the jury's verdict for any number of reasons. Third, your odds of actually getting a jury that will flat out ignore the facts in a case, and not get the case thrown out in the process... see Apple v. Samsung, you know, if you're still confused on how that can happen. ...are slim as hell.

So, at the end of the day, you have someone who was paid a lot of money by a company with certain expectations, and someone else who took the money, and then screwed their employers over. Even if it goes to jury, praying for nullification is like hoping for divine intervention, it's not going to happen.

EDIT: While I'm thinking about it, not naming Carmack is weird as hell, but it would also make something like this basically a no go. If they had Carmack up there pleading about how tech is his life, and presenting it as a David versus Goliath struggle of one man against The Man. But, this is going to be framed as corporate espionage, and juries are a lot less sympathetic to that.

 

[Zulnam]

I actually hope they win. I don't care if it's a lie, I hope they win and they get to patent their own OR or whatever.

That way maybe at least ONE of them will focus on the FUCKING GAMES.

But really, after the Chuck E. Cheese crap and the porn news i'll just abandon my lust for this. I always thought the first thing made with virtual reality would be about a spaceship flying simulator with dogfights.

Nope, porn.

 

[Cerebrawl]

I hope they lose and lose resoundingly, because I don't want it to set a precedent where companies own their employees and everything they do in their free time or after they quit.

I'd love to see Facebook getting a massive legal slap in the face, on the other hand I consider both of these companies to be sleazy greedy scumbags, so the only one I can root for as a winner is really Carmack.

 

[Happiness Assassin]

I am willing to bet Facebook ends up throwing money at Zenimax and telling them to go away. That is usually how these copyrights disputes end.

 

[iniudan]

Hell, I'm not even sure they'd be enforceable since what you make in your own home on your own time is not their business. If they're not paying you to make it, they don't own it.

They are enforceable.

Not in every state. It's considered void in California for example.

 

[Lightknight]

I'll be interesting to see how all of this plays out. Zenimax may honestly have a claim to this. In which case, they should be entitled to some to the pie that the investors were already paid. The net result for the Rift should be a net null though as long as Zenimax's intention is money and not stopping the rift from using their technology.

What's interesting is that Carmack says he uses zero lines of code. What I actually take this to mean is that they do use concepts he figured out at Zenimax but he has recoded it from scratch. The code doesn't have to be identical for the mechanics behind it to have been appropriated. So this is actually feasible.

Hell, I'm not even sure they'd be enforceable since what you make in your own home on your own time is not their business. If they're not paying you to make it, they don't own it.

They are enforceable.

Not in every state. It's considered void in California for example.

It really depends on what court jurisdiction the case is tried in. Just because Carmack and Oculus are in California doesn't mean that it will be tried using a state court system.

But you're certainly correct. It isn't black and white as to whether or not it's enforceable.

 

[tangoprime]

They shouldnt be. What i coded on my own time should not belong to the company, only what i did while im working for them.

Unless you signed a contract saying that it does, which as several people have noted, is pretty standard in the software industry. I have friends who work for JP Morgan Chase doing application development, and their employment contract has that language as well, basically anything they code while they're employed there belongs to the employer. I had that language in my contract when I worked for Microprose.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Wait they are suing them now? After they have Facebook backing?

Well props for ZeniMax for playing fair and not bullying the little guys XD

 

[NLS]

Standard employment contract in computer software industry.

'Anything to do with software you create while you work for us belongs to us'.

If this goes to court Zenimax will win and probably be found to own everything to do with Oculus Rift.

That's why Facebook will just give them lots of money to go away.

Yeah, no. There's no way that John Carmack signed a contract saying every bit of software he worked on while id was owned by Zenimax belonged to them. Things he developed in his office for id projects? Sure. Stuff he did on his own time to help out a completely separate company? No way in hell. A man who's that prolific a coder and software engineer does not sign a contract like that, and those sorts of contracts are absolutely not standard in the industry. Hell, I'm not even sure they'd be enforceable since what you make in your own home on your own time is not their business. If they're not paying you to make it, they don't own it.

Carmack is a genius when it comes to programming. But he's not the guy that cares much about fine print in contracts. And yes, that type of contract is very standard in the software industry and the epeople who sign it just deal with it.

 

[Lightknight]

Ok, I've read the court document:

http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf

It... it actually looks like Zenimax has a case. From the paper it looks like Carmack and other Zenimax employees actually helped him build the original prototype by providing both hardware and software expertise they were using at Zenimax at the time. Before Zenimax, the paper claims that the rift lacked a headmount, VR-specific Software, integrated motion sensors, and other critical features and capabilities that Zenimax employees gave them. But they actually managed to get a non-disclosure at this point, apparently.

With the non-disclosure in hand, Zenimax then arranged demonstrations of the Rift prototype in the Bethesda booth at E3. Zenimax also says they designed the SDK and directed its development. After the success of E3, Luckey continued to rely on Zenimax employees for support and assistance and Zenimax began discussing appropriate compensation for their role in the hardware and software development as well as E3 marketing that played a vital role in the product's existence. They then began to get the cold shoulder as new investors swooped in and started buying the business from Luckey.

The document also confirms that Carmack signed away rights to anything he made that related to the Zenimax research and development during his employment which would have included any code he wrote for the Rift since Bethesda has VR research on hand from the 90's. They even include a quote from Carmack in that E3 conference referencing his VR research with Zenimax and Id Software. Zenimax had been developing/researching headset VR displays since 2011 with the number one problem being the latency which they'd been specifically working on since.

There's another quote from Carmack stating that Luckey sent him the optics and he added in his own hardware from the five headmounts Carmack already had in his office before getting Luckey's prototype. Carmack lists adding sensors, head strap, software and "stuff". They specifically came up with the low latency and specifically recommended the high-field of view.

Once Luckey started trying to commercialize the product, only then did Zenimax begin trying to discuss compensation.

There's even evidence printed to suggest that Carmack quickly worked to rewrite code after Zenimax's lawyers sent them letters this year. That his "line of code" comment is only true because he recently made it so in response to the allegations.

Frankly... if this is all true, then we actually owe a significant amount of gratitude to Zenimax. This is incredible. That they gave him all the technology at the start without demanding compensation is remarkable and generous even, but they did rightfully get a nondisclosure signed by Luckey and specifically reserved rights to their technology as protection for them letting Luckey go forward with the demo. I mean, if this is true the Luckey had very little to do with the product at all and this really is more Zenimax product than not. This paper indicates that he took all kinds of Zenimax hardware and software and ran it all the way to the bank. Oculus/Facebook's response will have to be epic to discredit any of this. They have backed up everything with direct quotes and have built a solid case. I feel a little guilty for being so strongly on team Oculus' side before the evidence really cropped up. I'm just glad I stated several times to wait on more information.

 

[ike42]

When is someone in the federal government going to crack down on the eastern district of Texas. The courts there have become shills for the trademark/patent trolls. There needs to be some serious investigation into the judges that keep this legislation slanted in their favor and then refuse to move the courts to a different venue.

 

[Lightknight]

When is someone in the federal government going to crack down on the eastern district of Texas. The courts there have become shills for the trademark/patent trolls. There needs to be some serious investigation into the judges that keep this legislation slanted in their favor and then refuse to move the courts to a different venue.

Read my post immediately above yours. This isn't patent trolling. Zenimax basically put together the original prototype and then Luckey ran off with the finished product. He had even signed a non-disclosure that should have protected Zenimax from him doing this.

Look, I was all against Zenimax before the document but this is a severe breach of meaningful patents and technology that really is Zenimax's. I can't believe it either.

 

[ike42]

When is someone in the federal government going to crack down on the eastern district of Texas. The courts there have become shills for the trademark/patent trolls. There needs to be some serious investigation into the judges that keep this legislation slanted in their favor and then refuse to move the courts to a different venue.

Read my post immediately above yours. This isn't patent trolling. Zenimax basically put together the original prototype and then Luckey ran off with the finished product. He had even signed a non-disclosure that should have protected Zenimax from him doing this.

Look, I was all against Zenimax before the document but this is a severe breach of meaningful patents and technology that really is Zenimax's. I can't believe it either.

I still don't believe what they're saying, you initially said to wait for evidence, but then you flipped as soon as the official filing came out. If you want to wait for the evidence then you shouldn't have made a decision based on a one-sided testimony. Granted, if everything they said is true then things are far from black and white. However, I am very sceptical of their case based on where they filed it and the timing of their claims. Oculus was around for a while before Zenimax made any claims. When they kicksktarted it Zenimax didn't come out and make any claims. Only once they sold to facebook (which was a terrible thing in my opinion), did Zenimax claim to own the technology. Now put yourself in the shoes of a major corporation. If you had contributed significantly to the development of an almost universally loved device (I don't care for it, made me motion sick), would you not immediately cash in on the publicity by saying openly how it couldn't have been done without you? It's as simple as a short press release right after the successful kickstarter. Now I know this doesn't prove anything, but it does call into question the motivation of this major corporation. The patent system laid out in the US constitution was specifically targeted at spurring inovation and giving inventors incentive. This case is about the opposite, so no matter the outcome Zenimax is wrong in my opinion.

 

[Lightknight]

When is someone in the federal government going to crack down on the eastern district of Texas. The courts there have become shills for the trademark/patent trolls. There needs to be some serious investigation into the judges that keep this legislation slanted in their favor and then refuse to move the courts to a different venue.

Read my post immediately above yours. This isn't patent trolling. Zenimax basically put together the original prototype and then Luckey ran off with the finished product. He had even signed a non-disclosure that should have protected Zenimax from him doing this.

Look, I was all against Zenimax before the document but this is a severe breach of meaningful patents and technology that really is Zenimax's. I can't believe it either.

I still don't believe what they're saying, you initially said to wait for evidence, but then you flipped as soon as the official filing came out. If you want to wait for the evidence then you shouldn't have made a decision based on a one-sided testimony. Granted, if everything they said is true then things are far from black and white. However, I am very sceptical of their case based on where they filed it and the timing of their claims. Oculus was around for a while before Zenimax made any claims. When they kicksktarted it Zenimax didn't come out and make any claims. Only once they sold to facebook (which was a terrible thing in my opinion), did Zenimax claim to own the technology. Now put yourself in the shoes of a major corporation. If you had contributed significantly to the development of an almost universally loved device (I don't care for it, made me motion sick), would you not immediately cash in on the publicity by saying openly how it couldn't have been done without you? It's as simple as a short press release right after the successful kickstarter. Now I know this doesn't prove anything, but it does call into question the motivation of this major corporation. The patent system laid out in the US constitution was specifically targeted at spurring inovation and giving inventors incentive. This case is about the opposite, so no matter the outcome Zenimax is wrong in my opinion.

I think you mean I flipped the moment they produced an actual timeline and evidence. Which is exactly what I said to do and if we're going to be semantically correct, being convinced by new evidence isn't considered flipping.

If I say to wait for evidence and then get more evidence am I then supposed to wait further? I mean, quote after quote and they even produced the non-disclosure. The evidence is immense. I said we should wait for evidence until I found the actual source document.

Frankly, i don't even know why you're taking Oculus' side in this matter. Zenimax actually did start discussing compensation with Luckey. The moment he started gearing up to start the kickstarter is when Zenimax began broaching the subject. Luckey just apparently ignored that side of things, stringing Zenimax along until it was too late.

Look, I've followed the development of the Rift very closely. I remember the quotes they used and it all makes a whole lot of sense now. If even one component of Zenimax's claim is true then they deserve compensation for contributing DIRECTLY to this product. It isn't even just patent infringement. It's direct appropriation of work.

Companies will try to pursue other companies in court for money. What they don't do is cite fabricated evidence. That will land them in jail.

 

[Signa]

Ok, I've read the court document:

http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf

It... it actually looks like Zenimax has a case. From the paper it looks like Carmack and other Zenimax employees actually helped him build the original prototype by providing both hardware and software expertise they were using at Zenimax at the time. Before Zenimax, the paper claims that the rift lacked a headmount, VR-specific Software, integrated motion sensors, and other critical features and capabilities that Zenimax employees gave them. But they actually managed to get a non-disclosure at this point, apparently.

With the non-disclosure in hand, Zenimax then arranged demonstrations of the Rift prototype in the Bethesda booth at E3. Zenimax also says they designed the SDK and directed its development. After the success of E3, Luckey continued to rely on Zenimax employees for support and assistance and Zenimax began discussing appropriate compensation for their role in the hardware and software development as well as E3 marketing that played a vital role in the product's existence. They then began to get the cold shoulder as new investors swooped in and started buying the business from Luckey.

The document also confirms that Carmack signed away rights to anything he made that related to the Zenimax research and development during his employment which would have included any code he wrote for the Rift since Bethesda has VR research on hand from the 90's. They even include a quote from Carmack in that E3 conference referencing his VR research with Zenimax and Id Software. Zenimax had been developing/researching headset VR displays since 2011 with the number one problem being the latency which they'd been specifically working on since.

There's another quote from Carmack stating that Luckey sent him the optics and he added in his own hardware from the five headmounts Carmack already had in his office before getting Luckey's prototype. Carmack lists adding sensors, head strap, software and "stuff". They specifically came up with the low latency and specifically recommended the high-field of view.

Once Luckey started trying to commercialize the product, only then did Zenimax begin trying to discuss compensation.

There's even evidence printed to suggest that Carmack quickly worked to rewrite code after Zenimax's lawyers sent them letters this year. That his "line of code" comment is only true because he recently made it so in response to the allegations.

Frankly... if this is all true, then we actually owe a significant amount of gratitude to Zenimax. This is incredible. That they gave him all the technology at the start without demanding compensation is remarkable and generous even, but they did rightfully get a nondisclosure signed by Luckey and specifically reserved rights to their technology as protection for them letting Luckey go forward with the demo. I mean, if this is true the Luckey had very little to do with the product at all and this really is more Zenimax product than not. This paper indicates that he took all kinds of Zenimax hardware and software and ran it all the way to the bank. Oculus/Facebook's response will have to be epic to discredit any of this. They have backed up everything with direct quotes and have built a solid case. I feel a little guilty for being so strongly on team Oculus' side before the evidence really cropped up. I'm just glad I stated several times to wait on more information.

Thanks for that outlining. I never would have bothered to get that information myself.

 

[Lightknight]

Thanks for that outlining. I never would have bothered to get that information myself.

I went into it thinking that everything would be vague and unproven. But then they suddenly got very specific and included direct quotes from major interviews that I didn't think anything more of at the time they were mentioned. This is really a surprise to me. I believed in the Oculus team hook line and sinker.

 

[Adraeus]

Hell, I'm not even sure they'd be enforceable since what you make in your own home on your own time is not their business. If they're not paying you to make it, they don't own it.

They are enforceable.

Not in every state. It's considered void in California for example.

No, assignment of inventions agreements are valid and enforceable in California. There are merely some limitations.

See California Labor Code Section 2870 [http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=02001-03000&file=2870-2872] for the legal text.

• [li]If the employee used the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information, the agreement is enforceable.[/li]
  
  [li]If the employee's inventions "relate, at the time of conception or reduction to practice [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_to_practice] of the invention, to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer," the agreement is enforceable, regardless of whether the employee used the the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information.[/li]
  
  [li]If the employee's invention is the result of any work performed by the employee for the employer (also called "work for hire"), regardless of whether the employee used the the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information, the agreement is enforceable.[/li]

ZeniMax reprinted some of Carmack's employment agreement whose language indicates the enforceability of the agreement.

then your legal system has failed. They shouldnt be. What i coded on my own time should not belong to the company, only what i did while im working for them.

No, the system has not failed. Read my posts in the other thread. While the assignment of inventions agreement can be abused, which is why some jurisdictions limit the enforceability of the agreement, the agreement provides employers with an essential legal recourse. In the event that contractors or employees subvert their relationship with their employer, and therefore their access to the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information, for their own ends, the employer can pursue a remedy.