Zero Punctuation: Dante's Inferno

[geldonyetich]

How about you explain to all of us here how Street Fighter and Soul Calibur are not fighting games based on the same logic you use to claim that Kung Fu Master and Devil May Cry are not beat em ups/hack and slash games.

Wow, once you're on my ignore list, you're stuck on it. I've removed you from my ignore list but you're still ignored. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature. If I didn't have a quote from you in my buffer I couldn't reply to you anymore.

In any case, I'll drop you what's (I hope) one last message just to clarify the situation to you.

I used the word genre, once, but "genre" is an abstract term. When I say "tree" am I referring to a Hawthorne tree or an Evergreen tree? When I said "genre" you decided this meant "beat'em'ups" when what I was actually referring to was something far more specific to games such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and God of War.

You held on to the idea that I must have meant "beat'em'ups" when I said genre even after I explained this was not the case a few times. Maybe it's because you're bad at reading, or maybe it's because you felt that if you could insist that's what I meant you would be "right" and "win" this argument you thought we were having. Which is absolutely adorable, but a wrong-minded approach to any serious discussion.

However, to take the whole thing into consideration, all I really meant to say was that I'm bored of games similar to Devil May Cry and God of War and I wish developers would innovate more. If you've chosen to misinterpret that as being a wild tangent of something worth arguing with, that's your problem, not mine.

I've largely chosen to ignore you simply because this nonsense has gone on long enough. It all could have been avoided if you were capable of acknowledging the value of a word is as a tool of communication. As tools to convey ideas, they can be used to build the foundations of worthy discussion. However, in this case, you misused a single one of those tools to build yourself a great cage that separated you from the truth for an extended period of time. Herein is how you are lacking in wisdom, young grasshopper.

 

[axle 19]

Another in the long cavalcade of God of War knockoffs. God of War did it first and better so please stop making them and maybe focus on making a good game.

Devil May Cry was first (2001) and God of War came out second(2005) so I'm sorry GOW copied DMC

Sorry poor choice of words. What I meant to say was that God of War was the first game to combine the fantastic story with the amazing combat. Nothing against Dante's Inferno, I mean from what Ive seen the game is at least playable, but it takes way to many liberties and ruins the fantastic story of the Divine Comedy

 

[shadow skill]

How about you explain to all of us here how Street Fighter and Soul Calibur are not fighting games based on the same logic you use to claim that Kung Fu Master and Devil May Cry are not beat em ups/hack and slash games.

Wow, once you're on my ignore list, you're stuck on it. I've removed you from my ignore list but you're still ignored. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature. If I didn't have a quote from you in my buffer I couldn't reply to you anymore.

In any case, I'll drop you what's (I hope) one last message just to clarify the situation to you.

I used the word genre, once, but "genre" is an abstract term. When I say "tree" am I referring to a Hawthorne tree or an Evergreen tree? When I said "genre" you decided this meant "beat'em'ups" when what I was actually referring to was something far more specific to games such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and God of War.

You held on to the idea that I must have meant "beat'em'ups" when I said genre even after I explained this was not the case a few times. Maybe it's because you're bad at reading, or maybe it's because you felt that if you could insist that's what I meant you would be "right" and "win" this argument you thought we were having. Which is absolutely adorable, but a wrong-minded approach to any serious discussion.

However, to take the whole thing into consideration, all I really meant to say was that I'm bored of games similar to Devil May Cry and God of War and I wish developers would innovate more. If you've chosen to misinterpret that as being a wild tangent of something worth arguing with, that's your problem, not mine.

I've largely chosen to ignore you simply because this nonsense has gone on long enough. It all could have been avoided if you were capable of acknowledging the value of a word is as a tool of communication. As tools to convey ideas, they can be used to build the foundations of worthy discussion. However, in this case, you misused a single one of those tools to build yourself a great cage that separated you from the truth for an extended period of time.

Oh please you use a word wrong and I am the one who doesn't understand how words are tools of communication? I'm not trying to "win" an argument, I'm telling you that you changed your argument more than once. Are wrong when you assert that Devil May Cry was the first in it's class (genre), and are wrong now that you try to continue saying that you are not talking about genre tropes that these three games share. You haven't explained what those specific things that these three games you now bring up all posses. (Which is the very essence of any kind of classification.) You haven't explained how these qualities allow you to say that these games are not part of the brawler (beat em up) genre.) All in all you haven't actually said anything at all while you mock other users of the site. No one will understand what you mean when you don't even realize that you are changing your arguments, and misusing words.

 

[lozfoe444]

It's a lot like "Too Human" in that it takes a crap on historical figures, isn't it?

 

[geldonyetich]

Oh please you use a word wrong and I am the one who doesn't understand how words are tools of communication?

That you believe that I used a word wrong is why you continue to delude yourself.

I never said "beat'em'up." I said "genre" once, it wasn't the best word to use because of the ambiguity, but the choice to misinterpret the way it you did was your decision, and it was dead wrong.

You will either take responsibility for your wrong decision or delude yourself.

The rest of your message is more of the same spineless quibbling over your complete immaturity in this matter. I'm disgusted to read it and ashamed I had anything to do with you today. I now know that I was right to ignore you the first time.

 

[shadow skill]

Oh please you use a word wrong and I am the one who doesn't understand how words are tools of communication?

That you believe that I used a word wrong is why you continue to delude yourself.

I never said "beat'em'up." I said "genre" once, it wasn't the best word to use because of the ambiguity, but the choice to misinterpret the way it you did was your decision, and it was dead wrong.

You will either take responsibility for your wrong decision or delude yourself.

The rest of your message is more of the same spineless quibbling over your complete immaturity in this matter. I was right to ignore you the first time.

I know you did not say beat em up. But I did because Devil May Cry is a part of that genre. Now you are saying you did not mean to use genre but you haven't made any real effort to say what you actually meant in relationship to what I have said. You still haven't told me what qualities you were talking about which is what you were getting at when you said Devil May Cry did the genre first. You ignore all of this while saying that I am immature, a child, deluded, etc. No one knows what the heck you meant. The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

It is your responsibility to tell people what qualities you are talking about, it is not our responsibility to know your mind. I'll ask you again what qualities are you talking about?

 

[geldonyetich]

The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

I've done all of that and more, several times.

That you can't see it is proof positive that you're too immature to read what was presented.

It really should not be at all surprising that I've lost all motivation to even try anymore.

If you want me to explain this to you, pay me. It has become a laborious chore worthy of $20/hr.

 

[shadow skill]

The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

I've done all of that and more, several times.

That you can't see it is proof positive that you're too immature to read what was presented.

It really should not be at all surprising that I've lost all motivation to even try anymore.

If you want me to explain this to you, pay me. It has become a laborious chore worthy of $20/hr.

Still nothing I see. Wow you are so mature, admit to misusing a term say you are referring to something else and then when asked to define just what that something else is you refuse.

 

[shadow skill]

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition. Yet I and anyone else reading any of what you have said here is supposed to just accept whatever it is you throw out there. You claim I don't know how to have a debate but you refuse to actually say what qualities Devil May Cry, God of War, and Bayonetta all posses. You want people to not take your use of the word genre by the word's intended meaning but you have yet to provide a supplemental meaning for the purposes of this discussion. I read all your posts before I replied and not once did you actually mention the qualities you speak of here on this page. (Unless of course you have edited your posts to add all that in.) I have to question what business you have mocking me or A1 when you still have not actually said what you mean, and only that my reading of the words you have been using is wrong? You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case. However we are all to accept this as truth without any reason (definition) for the argument you are making. When I say that all games are RPG's I don't expect people to take that as gospel without either linking them to the definition of roleplay or using some other device to explain my assertion.

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out of this word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

So deal with it.

You don't seem to get that you have been implicitly talking about genres the entire time. Any classification is based on the qualities a group of items possesses. You may think you are not, but you are.

 

[geldonyetich]

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out the misuse of a word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case.

Because it's self-evident to anyone with enough world knowledge to know that "genre" in the context you are using it in is wholly applies to some poor schmuck categorizing games, and has next to no bearing on what I was really talking about.

 

[shadow skill]

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out the misuse of a word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case.

Because it's self-evident to anyone with enough world knowledge to know that "genre" in the context you are using it in is wholly applies to some poor schmuck categorizing games, and has next to no bearing on what I was really talking about.

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

 

[geldonyetich]

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

The trouble is that when you saw me use the word "genre," you believed it was referring specifically to this crude classification definition of the word.

According to Webster's Dictionary, I was not really in the wrong to use the word. However, I meant something more specific than you decided I meant: a genre to which the typical crude words would not encapsulate, which referred specifically to God Of War/Devil May Cry like games.

If you had paid appropriate attention to the context of my original message, this should have been self-evident, because these are the only games I mentioned and it's mentioned in the context of a third similar game Dante's Inferno. Even Yahtzee himself expresses that "Dante's Inferno is God Of War" and as far as I'm concerned Devil May Cry isn't distinct enough to matter.

That you are so completely dead-set on believing the wholly incorrect misinterpretation you have made must have been what I meant from the start indicates that you are completely insane because you apparently believe you are capable of reading my mind.

It thus fills me with revulsion that things have dragged on over this simple matter. I actually missed a second semester Spanish class today because I allowed myself to get occupied on this thread at a bad time. But, at the same time, it's human nature to delude ourselves thusly. It's fostering awareness these built-in slippery slopes that bring about wisdom.

 

[shadow skill]

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

The trouble is that when you saw me use the word "genre," you believed it was referring specifically to this crude classification definition of the word.

I meant something slightly more specific. A genre to which the typical crude words would not encapsulate, which referred specifically to God Of War/Devil May Cry like games.

If you had paid appropriate attention to the context of my original message, this should have been self-evident, because these are the only games I mentioned and it's mentioned in teh context of a third similar game Dante's Inferno.

That you are so completely revoltingly dead-set on believing the wholly incorrect misinterpretation you have made must have been what I meant from the start indicates that you are completely insane because you apparently believe you are capable of reading my mind.

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me? I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo That is why I asked you what elements you are talking about because there are lots of common elements to these games which is why they are a part of the same genre.

 

[geldonyetich]

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me?

Hey, go ahead and interpret words based on their definition. According to Webster's Dictionary I was fully in my rights to use the word "genre" the way I did.

When I say there was "ambiguity" I just meant that there was room for a wrong-minded twit to misunderstand if they applied themselves.

Which you did. Congrats.

It seems my temper is flaring again. Some poster boy of wisdom I am. I do have to hand it to you - though I believe you a wrong-minded fool in many respects, at least you keep your temper better than I have.

I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo

Not even close.

Listen. To. Me. A GENRE SPECIFIC TO THE GAMES DEVIL MAY CRY, BAYONETTA, GOD OF WAR, AND DANTE'S INFERNO. If you leave what those three games have in common, you are wrong, no matter what crude label you believe they all fit under.

The key phase is: the context in which the word was applied. Context is actually a cornerstone of the English language. If you do not pay attention to the context, you are failing to communicate.

Can I make it any simpler? I don't think I can. Ima gunna go boot up X-Com: Apocolypse and kill some goddamn Anthropods until my caffeine fueled rage subsides.

 

[Jing the Bandit]

I think maybe it was being 'molested' by the wind, or some shit like that, and then they throw Joan of Arc in there for some reason or another.

 

[Andaxay]

I LOVE when Yahtzee starts running out of breath. In his effort to get the whole sentence out before complete lack of oxygen, he sounds angry and sarcastic, and it makes me laugh every time.

Meh. One of my friends at work is completely obsessed with Dante's Inferno, he really won't shut up about how good it is. He uses the phrase "like God of War," too when describing it to customers.

 

[shadow skill]

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me?

Hey, go ahead and interpret words based on their definition. According to Webster's Dictionary I was fully in my rights to use the word "genre" the way I did.

When I say there was "ambiguity" I just meant that there was room for a wrong-minded twit to misunderstand if they applied themselves.

Which you did. Congrats.

It seems my temper is flaring again. Some poster boy of wisdom I am. I do have to hand it to you - though I believe you a wrong-minded fool in many respects, at least you keep your temper better than I have.

I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo

Not even close.

Listen. To. Me. A GENRE SPECIFIC TO THE GAMES DEVIL MAY CRY, BAYONETTA, GOD OF WAR, AND DANTE'S INFERNO. If you leave what those three games have in common, you are wrong, no matter what crude label you believe they all fit under.

The key phase is: the context in which the word was applied. Context is actually a cornerstone of the English language. If you do not pay attention to the context, you are failing to communicate.

Can I make it any simpler? I don't think I can. Ima gunna go boot up X-Com: Apocolypse and kill some goddamn Anthropods until my caffeine fueled rage subsides.

You were the one who said you had misused the term. When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant. This fact means that claiming that Devil May Cry was the first of it's kind factually untrue period. Secondly it seems to me that you are arguing that DMC, Bayonetta, God of War, and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves without actually defining that genre. So many other games have commonality with these games that trying to separate them into a new category makes no sense whatsoever. The things that Devil May Cry did mechanically where already done by older games, so how in the hell could Devil May Cry logically be called the first in a new genre?

 

[wiredk]

Sounds like the real Yahtzee was murdered a long time ago and they're desperately trying to keep him alive through voice synthesizing.

 

[geldonyetich]

You were the one who said you had misused the term.

Go back to where I said that and read again. There's a difference between there being 'ambiguity' and the term being 'misused.'

When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant.

You sure did. And you were wrong to do so because you took the word out of context.

Actually, I'm going to stop right there:

You took me out of context. You've always been taking me out of context.

That is where the failure to communicate was.

End of story. Simple. Simple enough that it would require a herculean amount of stubborn immaturity not to understand.

 

[shadow skill]

You were the one who said you had misused the term.

Go back to where I said that and read again. There's a difference between there being 'ambiguity' and the term being 'misused.'

When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant.

You sure did. And you were wrong to do so because you took the word out of context.

Actually, I'm going to stop right there:

You took me out of context. You've always been taking me out of context.

That is where the failure to communicate was.

End of story. Simple. Simple enough that it would require a herculean amount of stubborn immaturity not to understand.

Well if you say that it creates ambiguity because what the word means isn't actually what you mean then it is a misuse of the term. I didn't take you out of context, you tried to create a context for yourself without defining what that context even was until now. Even then it still makes no sense because the context that you have created isn't even properly defined to distinguish it from the words you are using. You haven't defined what you think this new genre is, yet you claim that these games are all a part of it while every other game that is understood to actually be a part of the genre these games belong to is not. In other words you created an entirely arbitrary designation, didn't explain said designation, made fun of people for not getting your unexplained and arbitrary designation, then tried to pass yourself off as the "mature" party, failed to consider that the idea that these games are a genre unto themselves makes absolutely no sense since other games have done the things these games do long before they were made, unless you define the elements you are talking about; then proceeded to accuse others of taking you out of context.

If the context only exists in your head whilst you make no effort to actually communicate that context, people can't take you out of context.