Zero Punctuation: Dante's Inferno

[geldonyetich]

Well if you say that it creates ambiguity because what the word means isn't actually what you mean then it is a misuse of the term.

Good God, why do you try so hard to be so wrong?

No, when something creates ambiguity, it does not mean the word is misused, it just means that it's possible to misinterpret.

Now, consider this: even in a perfectly worded paragraph, the possibility of misinterpretation exists.

For example, the reader could take your words out of context. Completely their fault. No matter how well-worded the sentence was, it would be unavoidable.

Maybe I was wrong to even say the word "genre" was ambiguious at all. Webster's dictionary says it was the right word. I imagine most English majors would agree that the word was used appropriately.

I was trying to be generous. I see that was wasted on you because apparently that you've seen the word "genre" used in a certain way on certain websites has cemented your brain into such a fossilized brick that you're unable or unwilling to look at it in any other way.

No, you probably just have this deep irrational psychological need to be the guy who's "right" to the point where you'll desperately attempt to bend time and space to get there. Deeply ironic that you'll never be right because you won't see where you went wrong.

 

[phar]

Thats the funniest ZP ive seen in quite a while

 

[A1]

As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't the second or subsequent times either.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first. [Edit: Lest we run into anybody else as thick as Shadow Skill, don't take the word "genre" as implying "Action" or "Beat'Em'Ups" or "Fighting" or any silly word someone tasked with categorizing games might have put under the word "genre." Instead, think of it as something much more specific to the God of War/Devil May Cry experience.]

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Do you know what straw man tactics are?

Essentially a straw man tactic is when someone takes something that's easy to attack or counter and attributes it to their opponent. Or perhaps more formally it's misrepresenting your opponent's position.

""You: OMG! GOW-III IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DEVIL MAY CRY! I'M GOING TO NAME MY FIRST BORN SON KRATOS AND CAST YOU DOWN INTO A PIT OF DESPAIR FOR DARING TO SLANDER THE GOD OF WAR NAME.""

Does this look familiar? It seems to look like an attempt to misrepresent my position.

You seem to be accusing me of being overzealous (and yes I am referring to what appears to be your original unedited post). But I'm simply defending the game. That by no means automatically makes me overzealous.

""To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first.""

Perhaps you should take a closer look at my previous posts. I didn't say anything at all about anything being better or worse. Although perhaps this is at least partially my fault because maybe I didn't have sufficient clarification (although this seems to be a mistake that you could probably relate to to at least some extent). What I mean is that based on the latest God of War 3 trailer and the characteristics of Devil May Cry 4 it would seem that in terms of similarities the two game franchises are growing farther apart from each other, whether they be of the same genre or not. Especially if one is referring to God of War 3 specifically (which I am by the way).

""Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong""

Perhaps. But on the other hand your previous post seems to be at least somewhat lacking in terms of clarity (although I know that I'm really not in any position to judge with regard to that particular subject). What I mean is this:

""Maybe I would wait for God of War III if I wasn't already pretty bored of the Devil May Cry formula.""

This seems to strongly imply that you aren't willing to wait for the game. That in turn seems to strongly imply that you've already made up your mind about the game. And that in turn would seem to bear a little more than a passing resemblance to a judgement call.

""I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.""

Now you're being presumptuous and not particularly mature. Especially when taking into account that I am not the one who brought up Devil May Cry in the first place.

 

[shadow skill]

It's the job of the person making the statement to be clear. Especially in an environment like this where it cannot be known if the people reading what is being said are native English speakers. If someone doesn't understand something you say it is your fault not theirs. It's not about genre being used a certain way on the internet, it is about how it is used in the English language itself. It's not jargon, that only select circles know about, it is a standard term. You don't invent a new definition for a term without defining it. Simply saying "It's the stuff common to W,X,Y,Z." Isn't a definition because it doesn't tell the reader what those common things actually are.

Well if you say that it creates ambiguity because what the word means isn't actually what you mean then it is a misuse of the term.

Good God, why do you try so hard to be so wrong?

No, when something creates ambiguity, it does not mean the word is misused, it just means that it's possible to misinterpret.

Now, consider this: even in a perfectly worded paragraph, the possibility of misinterpretation exists.

For example, the reader could take your words out of context. Completely their fault. No matter how well-worded the sentence was, it would be unavoidable.

Maybe I was wrong to even say the word "genre" was ambiguious at all. Webster's dictionary says it was the right word. I imagine most English majors would agree that the word was used appropriately.

I was trying to be generous. I see that was wasted on you because apparently that you've seen the word "genre" used in a certain way on certain websites has cemented your brain into such a fossilized brick that you're unable or unwilling to look at it in any other way.

No, you probably just have this deep irrational psychological need to be the guy who's "right" to the point where you'll desperately attempt to bend time and space to get there. Deeply ironic that you'll never be right because you won't see where you went wrong.

No one here actually knows what you mean, they are not in your head. They may not speak English as a first language. If you are going to discuss a subject with anyone learn to actually define what you mean and frame your argument correctly. Chanting "You're wrong." without going into actual reasons why (IE. Not mere vagaries.) is not the way to do it. Especially if you are going to belittle another person.

 

[geldonyetich]

It's the job of the person making the statement to be clear

Yes, but I'm not at fault here, the idiot who got all hung up on the use of one word out of a sentence, one appropriately-used but misinterpretted anyway[/u, is at fault here.

It's the job of the reader to try to understand what is written. From the very start, you have been trying NOT to understand what is written. And that is why you fail.

I'm the one who wrote the message, and I explained to you how you misunderstood it, and you still failed. Do you have any idea how pathetic that is?

Anyone who has been able to follow this "conversation" we've been having and see that you are desperately hanging upon the fact that I used the word "genre" as rationalization that I made a mistake.

Which is as adorable as ever, but guess what, kid? You're still dead wrong.

And this is the most adorable part of all:

Chanting "You're wrong." without going into actual reasons why

Again: Good God. I can't believe how many times I've explained things to you only to have you say that I'm being vague. I tried to simply, I really did, but it just wasn't good enough. Your brain is simply not developed adequately to understand what I am saying.

Tell you what, archive this and get back to me in 12 years.

 

[geldonyetich]

As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't the second or subsequent times either.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first. [Edit: Lest we run into anybody else as thick as Shadow Skill, don't take the word "genre" as implying "Action" or "Beat'Em'Ups" or "Fighting" or any silly word someone tasked with categorizing games might have put under the word "genre." Instead, think of it as something much more specific to the God of War/Devil May Cry experience.]

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Do you know what straw man tactics are?
Essentially a straw man tactic is when someone takes something that's easy to attack or counter and attributes it to their opponent. Or perhaps more formally it's misrepresenting your opponent's position.

""You: OMG! GOW-III IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DEVIL MAY CRY! I'M GOING TO NAME MY FIRST BORN SON KRATOS AND CAST YOU DOWN INTO A PIT OF DESPAIR FOR DARING TO SLANDER THE GOD OF WAR NAME.""

Aww, I'm sowwy, did I hurt your feelings so badly with my tongue-in-cheek comment in the capital letters above that anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to figure out wasn't meant to be taken seriously that you immediately fell back into "STRAW MAN! IT'S A STRAW MAN! MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!" mode?

Well, because you did take it seriously, you're already existing in a state of delusion. It wasn't meant to be interpreted as an argument, it was meant to be interpreted as a "you misread my message" wake up call. Therefore, to call it a Straw Man argument makes no sense because it wasn't even being used as an argument.

How about you look past your little tiny hurt ego and understand the message I was attempting to convey? I already explained it to you once. I know this because you've quoted where I explained it. My experiences with Shadow Skill on this thread remind me why I should not bother explaining it again.

It's my fault, really - I shouldn't have even bothered to reply to you. From your very first message, it's clear you're desperate to pick a fight, because you actually went out of your way to misread my original comment in such a way that you could try to interpret it as an invitation.

 

[shadow skill]

Are you serious? You have said that DMC, Bayonetta, GOW and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves but you have yet to explain what specific elements they share that other games do not. No one knows what you are talking about. No one who actually researches things will understand why these games are not brawlers. Do you know why? Because you haven't actually described the elements, you have only said that they exist.

As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't the second or subsequent times either.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first. [Edit: Lest we run into anybody else as thick as Shadow Skill, don't take the word "genre" as implying "Action" or "Beat'Em'Ups" or "Fighting" or any silly word someone tasked with categorizing games might have put under the word "genre." Instead, think of it as something much more specific to the God of War/Devil May Cry experience.]

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Don't you think you ought to let people know just what the God of War/Devil May Cry experience is? What if they haven't played those games thoroughly?

 

[geldonyetich]

Are you serious? You have said that DMC, Bayonetta, GOW and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves but you have yet to explain what specific elements they share that other games do not. No one knows what you are talking about.

Maybe the real root of this issue is that you have no idea what the word "genre" even means. You're just putting it in the context of something you saw on written in a magazine or gaming websites. I was not wrong in my use of the word. Ask your estranged English teacher. Don't bother to tell me that I told you I misused it - if I did, I was clearly mistaken to give someone as desperate-to-be-right as you that much leeway to delude yourself.

 

[shadow skill]

Are you serious? You have said that DMC, Bayonetta, GOW and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves but you have yet to explain what specific elements they share that other games do not. No one knows what you are talking about.

Maybe the real root of this issue is that you have no idea what the word "genre" even means. You're just putting it in the context of something you saw on written in a magazine or gaming websites. I was not wrong in my use of the word. Ask your estranged English teacher. Don't bother to tell me that I told you I misused it - if I did, I was clearly mistaken.

Yes in fact I do know what it means. I also know that you have not actually explained how all of these games are a part of a genre that Kung fu Master or Legend are not a part of.


For the curious here is a link to the definition:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genre

 

[UnSeEn60]

Forum battles are sad...I'm losing faith in the human race as I read these posts.

On another note, good ZP this week, though I'm not sure if I agree with Yahtzee. It's far too easy to dismiss the game as a God of War rip-off, and I'd hoped he wouldn't stoop to that like Gamespot did. God of War wasn't exactly original, was it?

 

[geldonyetich]

Yes in fact I do know what it means. I also know that you have not actually explained how all of these games are a part of a genre that Kung fu Master or Legend are not a part of.

For the curious here is a link to the definition:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genre

Very good! Now, why don't you go read it? Or do you need me to hold your hand while your brain goes to the bathroom, passing out the stupid that's stopping you from seeing there's nothing wrong with the way I used the word genre?

Hint: definition 3, noun.
(Although even definition 1, noun, would work given that there's no universal authorities that defines genre terms and what they encapsulate.)

 

[shadow skill]

Yes in fact I do know what it means. I also know that you have not actually explained how all of these games are a part of a genre that Kung fu Master or Legend are not a part of.

For the curious here is a link to the definition:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genre

Very good! Now, why don't you go read it? Or do you need me to hold your hand while your brain goes to the bathroom, passing out the stupid that's stopping you from seeing there's nothing wrong with the way I used the word genre?

Hint: definition 3, noun.
(Although even definition 1, noun, would work given that there's no universal authorities that defines genre terms and what they encapsulate.)

You don't get it do you.

A. Genre can be used in the way you have used it.
B. The assertion that DMC did the genre first, is factually incorrect Because of A.
C. If one suggests that B is false because DMC et all is set a part in such a way that precludes it from being a part of the existing brawler genre and it's subdivisions, what sets it a part must actually be defined, otherwise B is still true.

 

[geldonyetich]

A. Genre can be used in the way you have used it.
B. The assertion that DMC did the genre first, is factually incorrect Because of A.

Oh, that made me LOL.

"Hey, because I can use the word genre in a specific way, it makes something factually incorrect."

I mentioned that you're desperate to bend time and space to your whims to be right. Thanks for providing a specific example.

C. If one suggests that B is false because DMC et all is set a part in such a way that precludes it from being a part of the existing brawler genre and it's subdivisions, what sets it a part must actually be defined, otherwise B is still true.

Make that two examples, the second one being even more extremely out there than the first. It goes to reason - you base a premise upon an already faulty premise and you end up with an even faultier one.

Forum battles are sad...I'm losing faith in the human race as I read these posts.

You and me both. I admit I'm a part of the problem, but I see myself as being a bit of the ledge of sanity that the demons of stupidity are pulling themselves out of the pit upon. If the ledge goes away, the demons do not assert themselves on this physical plane, but they still remain in the realm of ignorance. That I bother to provide them a means to manifest at all causes me to question my own credentials as a ledge of sanity.

 

[shadow skill]

A. Genre can be used in the way you have used it.
B. The assertion that DMC did the genre first, is factually incorrect Because of A.

Oh, that made me LOL.

"Hey, because I can use the word genre in a specific way, it makes something factually incorrect."

I mentioned that you're desperate to bend time and space to your whims to be right. Thanks for providing a specific example.

C. If one suggests that B is false because DMC et all is set a part in such a way that precludes it from being a part of the existing brawler genre and it's subdivisions, what sets it a part must actually be defined, otherwise B is still true.

Make that two examples, the second one being even more extremely out there than the first.

I'm trying to find out just what it is that makes you assert that DMC invented a genre. That I point out that something is factually incorrect unless it is defined isn't evidence of anything save logic. I'm also trying to tell you that belittling people while not actually explaining your position doesn't make your position cool, or mature.

If you the sky is polka-dot during the day and I say no it isn't and show you a picture of the sky being blue as proof of reasoning it only shows the reasoning behind me statement.

 

[Sentient6]

"It's like my right hand on a Sunday afternoon"... Jesus-fucking-christ, how the fuck does he come up wuth stuff like that? I loled for 3 minutes straight...

 

[geldonyetich]

I'm trying to find out just what it is that makes you assert that DMC invented a genre.

Technically, I didn't even say this.

First, we consider that when I used the word "genre" I was referring specifically to a type of games that have characteristics unique to God of War, Devil May Cry, and Dante's Inferno.

Second, consider that when I used the word "first," I was also referring specifically to God of War, Devil May Cry, and Dante's Inferno.

So that's a second misinterpretation you've done. You've not only misinterpretted me about the use of the word "genre" but you also misinterpretted me about the use of the word "first" by thinking I'm implying this would reflect anywhere outside of those three games. (Well, four if you include Bayonetta).

Like it or not, out of those three (or four) games, Devil May Cry was first.

If you the sky is polka-dot during the day and I say no it isn't and show you a picture of the sky being blue as proof of reasoning it only shows the reasoning behind me statement.

Given the wanton nature if your misinterpretting everything I said, it doesn't matter what color the sky is.

 

[shadow skill]

I'm trying to find out just what it is that makes you assert that DMC invented a genre.

Technically, I didn't even say this.

First, we consider that when I used the word "genre" I was referring specifically to a type of games that have characteristics unique to God of War, Devil May Cry, and Dante's Inferno.

Second, consider that when I used the word "first," I was also referring specifically to God of War, Devil May Cry, and Dante's Inferno.

So that's a second misinterpretation you've done. You've not only misinterpretted me about the use of the word "genre" but you also misinterpretted me about the use of the word "first" by thinking I'm implying this would reflect anywhere outside of those three games. (Well, four if you include Bayonetta).

Like it or not, out of those three (or four) games, Devil May Cry was first.

If you the sky is polka-dot during the day and I say no it isn't and show you a picture of the sky being blue as proof of reasoning it only shows the reasoning behind me statement.

Given the wanton nature if your misinterpretting everything I said, it doesn't matter what color the sky is.

What are those elements though, and how then is it possible to say that it is the DMC formula given the fact that these games don't exist in some artificial vacuum that only you seem to know about? Even if we take what you said at face value it still makes no sense because these games all play very differently from DMC. With the except of DI as it relates to God of War, the formulas of Bayonetta and God of War and DI are distinct from DMC outside of the most general comparisons.

 

[sbrff]

oh, i almoast bought this for my 360 when this game was new!

now i`m going to borrow it from a friend, and after i`m done with that i`m buying god of war collection for my new PS3 (= still have my 360 though =)and them i`ma buy GOD OF WAR III AWSOME =D

 

[shadow skill]

oh, i almoast bought this for my 360 when this game was new!

now i`m going to borrow it from a friend, and after i`m done with that i`m buying god of war collection for my new PS3 (= still have my 360 though =)and them i`ma buy GOD OF WAR III AWSOME =D

I'm not finding the game very fun personally but it is well made. I have to give Visceral that credit at least.

 

[geldonyetich]

What are those elements though, and how then is it possible to say that it is the DMC formula given the fact that these games don't exist in some artificial vacuum that only you seem to know about? Even if we take what you said at face value it still makes no sense because these games all play very differently from DMC. With the except of DI the formulas of Bayonetta and God of War are distinct from DMC outside of the most general comparisons.

This is the first good question you asked me. Unfortunately (and I know this will sound like a cop out) I don't have the energy to isolate the specifics anymore. Besides, words aren't very good at conveying some things, the "feel" of a game is one such thing.

Suffice to say, if you've played Devil May Cry, Bayonetta (made by the DMC creators), God of War, and Dante's Inferno, you will notice a very specific isometric perspective, pacing, and interactivity mechanism involving combo chains, jumping, and enemy dispatching, that is quite unique from your earlier example [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo]. Come to think of it, there was another game - Heavenly Sword - I'd include that as well.

Besides, even if you did manage to find a game that pre-dated Devil May Cry and had enough characteristics involved that I believed it passed, why do you think I would have any reason to care? All I was saying is, "hey, these kinds of games are becoming derivative, I wish the developers would innovate a bit more."

If you found an earlier game, what does that change? I'm still bored of it. The more games you can find that are similar, the more you simply reinforce my point that these games are derivatives and, as such, boring.

Even though I don't care, I wouldn't even be wrong as pertains to mentioning DMC as being the "first," because the context of the message did not include any earlier games. I could very well be meaning the first of only two games (God of War and Devil May Cry) because those are the only two that were mentioned when I said that.