Zero Punctuation: Deus Ex Mankind Divided

Transdude1996

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darkrage6 said:
Transdude1996 said:
So, going by the comments I'm seeing, while the game is better than given credit, wait for the DLC to come out, and then the inevitable "GOTYE/SE/DX/EE/AE/" of the game with minor tweaks and changes that fix common complaints.

Also, I'd like to point out that probably the reason the game was advertised as "battling racism" is because of how meaningless the word means today when you can call someone a racist for wanting people to go through the proper legal channels to become a citizen, or wanting to make sure that people entering an area do not have the intent to level it and everyone in the vicinity.
Don't tell me you're a Trump supporter, the word is absolutely not "meaningless" in anyways(seriously stop watching Faux News), there's plenty of legal citizens FAR more dangerous then any immigrants.
A few things wrong with this comment.

First off, yes, the word has become meaningless. All the "-ist" and "-phobic" words have become meaningless lately because it causes the conversation to go into immediate "confirmation bias" mode. Once that happens it's a no win scenario for the opponent, and it's been happening more and more. To combat this, people just turned this cheap tactic into a joke because that's what it is, a joke. Heck, what do you think happened with Ghostbusters (2016)? Also, this election cycle has been cholk-full of confirmation bias (Here's some further reading in case you're curious [http://blog.dilbert.com/]).

Two, what "faux news"? Outside of a few populist sites, every single news network have been anti-Trump [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/06/the-mainstream-media-has-a-donald-j-trump-sized-blind-spot.html] (Though I don't know why this needed to be brought up).

Three, yes, I have to agree. There are a handful of people who are off their rocker. And, you know what, when they do something illegal, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would gladly to lock them up and throw away the key.
 

darkrage6

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Transdude1996 said:
darkrage6 said:
Transdude1996 said:
So, going by the comments I'm seeing, while the game is better than given credit, wait for the DLC to come out, and then the inevitable "GOTYE/SE/DX/EE/AE/" of the game with minor tweaks and changes that fix common complaints.

Also, I'd like to point out that probably the reason the game was advertised as "battling racism" is because of how meaningless the word means today when you can call someone a racist for wanting people to go through the proper legal channels to become a citizen, or wanting to make sure that people entering an area do not have the intent to level it and everyone in the vicinity.
Don't tell me you're a Trump supporter, the word is absolutely not "meaningless" in anyways(seriously stop watching Faux News), there's plenty of legal citizens FAR more dangerous then any immigrants.
A few things wrong with this comment.

First off, yes, the word has become meaningless. All the "-ist" and "-phobic" words have become meaningless lately because it causes the conversation to go into immediate "confirmation bias" mode. Once that happens it's a no win scenario for the opponent, and it's been happening more and more. To combat this, people just turned this cheap tactic into a joke because that's what it is, a joke. Heck, what do you think happened with Ghostbusters (2016)? Also, this election cycle has been cholk-full of confirmation bias (Here's some further reading in case you're curious [http://blog.dilbert.com/]).

Two, what "faux news"? Outside of a few populist sites, every single news network have been anti-Trump [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/06/the-mainstream-media-has-a-donald-j-trump-sized-blind-spot.html] (Though I don't know why this needed to be brought up).

Three, yes, I have to agree. There are a handful of people who are off their rocker. And, you know what, when they do something illegal, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would gladly to lock them up and throw away the key.
No it has not become meaningless just cause you say so.



There is no Trump bias, are you fucking kidding me? Now you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, the fact you're sourcing from a trashy gossip rag like Daily Beast proves my point.

If anything the media has been giving Trump a free ride, as they hardly ever talk about all the shady shit he's been involved(I.E. the Trump university scandal).
 

ToastyMozart

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I always find it kinda funny when people talk about Jensen being overly gruff, because it's basically just the actor's normal voice.

Elias Toufexis sounds just like his character, though he tends to talk with a bit more levity.
 

Makabriel

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So.. am I the only one that is annoyed with the title of this series? Deus Ex. God in.....

Come on now, finish the damn phrase!
 

major_chaos

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"Insultingly short"? Really? It took me 21 hours to beat the game once, on normal, and missing several sidequests, which is only ever so slightly shorter than my first HR run. The only MD is "short" is if you play on easy and rush through every level and ignore every side mission.

Also strongly disagree with the conspiracy being thrown around that squeenix cut the game up at the last second or chopped out major parts of the story to sell as DLC. If anything the game feels like the middle of a trilogy from beginning to end, so if a choice was made to make two games instead of one I would guess it was made fairly early in development.
 

Kingjackl

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I disagree with Yahtzee on a few points (for starters, I thought the game was pretty good and of decent length with side missions) but the image of Jensen falling into a dumpster full of airhorns is so funny I'm not going to even bother arguing. Especially since I've more or less had that happen in game. Word to the wise: the charged Icarus Dash does not travel as far as it looks.

Don't want to talk too much about the racism analogy, but I think it's worth bringing up that not every aug is a military-powered mecha-man like Adam. Most of the average aug citizens appear to be people who have people who have replaced one or two body parts, either because they needed to like Adam, or because they bought into the golden age ideology prevalent in the previous game that augmentation was the "next step" in human evolution. Which doesn't make them completely unsympathetic, since they couldn't have known about the incident, or that society would do a complete 180 on augmentation.
 

Transdude1996

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major_chaos said:
"Insultingly short"? Really? It took me 21 hours to beat the game once, on normal, and missing several sidequests, which is only ever so slightly shorter than my first HR run. The only MD is "short" is if you play on easy and rush through every level and ignore every side mission.

Also strongly disagree with the conspiracy being thrown around that squeenix cut the game up at the last second or chopped out major parts of the story to sell as DLC. If anything the game feels like the middle of a trilogy from beginning to end, so if a choice was made to make two games instead of one I would guess it was made fairly early in development.
I guess we'll be putting your theory to the test because the first DLC for MD was just announced, and it's releasing two weeks from Friday:
http://nichegamer.com/2016/09/07/deus-ex-mankind-divided-system-rift-dlc-releases-september-23/

Though, I have to admit, I do remember hearing something about Jenson's story being a trilogy not too long ago.
 

Flatfrog

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K12 said:
Couldn't agree more on the shortcomings of the racism analogy... now let's wait for somebody to come along and decide that this kind of nuance in criticism is either racist or SJW political-correctness. I wonder which will happen first.
I've always had a problem with racism analogies where the distrust is completely reasonable and understandable. The vampires in True Blood was a particular bugbear of mine. It is *rational* to be scared of vampires because they *actually kill people*. Fangophobia is not a civil rights issue!
(And before anyone asks - Islamophobia comes somewhere between the two extremes. The vast majority of Muslims do not kill people, but that doesn't mean it's *entirely* irrational to get nervous when a big dark-skinned beardy man with a slightly oversized coat sits next to you on the bus)
 

Kingjackl

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Flatfrog said:
(And before anyone asks - Islamophobia comes somewhere between the two extremes. The vast majority of Muslims do not kill people, but that doesn't mean it's *entirely* irrational to get nervous when a big dark-skinned beardy man with a slightly oversized coat sits next to you on the bus)
Well, not when you put it like *that*, but you do realise equating Muslim with "big dark-skinned beardy man" is kinda racist, right? Especially since statistically Middle-Easterners tend to be smaller than average in height. I mean I'd be a million times more frightened of white Christians from the American south than Islamic migrants because the latter aren't born into a culture saying outsiders are out to get you, but don't worry because you have guns to protect you.
 

major_chaos

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Transdude1996 said:
I guess we'll be putting your theory to the test because the first DLC for MD was just announced, and it's releasing two weeks from Friday:
http://nichegamer.com/2016/09/07/deus-ex-mankind-divided-system-rift-dlc-releases-september-23/
I already knew about that DLC, and based on what is currently known it looks more like a retread of a existing mission (oh goody we get to break into Palisade again) rather than some vital chunk of plot or a continuation of the main story.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Hmm, much as I am excited to play this fellow, I think I'll wait until Christmas time and see if a GOTY edition has poked it's head up by then.
 

bjj hero

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Flatfrog said:
I've always had a problem with racism analogies where the distrust is completely reasonable and understandable. The vampires in True Blood was a particular bugbear of mine. It is *rational* to be scared of vampires because they *actually kill people*. Fangophobia is not a civil rights issue!
(And before anyone asks - Islamophobia comes somewhere between the two extremes. The vast majority of Muslims do not kill people, but that doesn't mean it's *entirely* irrational to get nervous when a big dark-skinned beardy man with a slightly oversized coat sits next to you on the bus)
It depends where you are. In the UK or US you are far more likely to die from a bus crash than said male. I would not be at all nervous in that situation and believe it is irrational to be so. Big males dont make me nervous. Dark skinned or otherwise.

OT. I dont think it works for racism. Its natural to be nervous to walk down the street if everyone is carrying concealed weapons.
 

Gorrath

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darkrage6 said:
Transdude1996 said:
darkrage6 said:
Transdude1996 said:
So, going by the comments I'm seeing, while the game is better than given credit, wait for the DLC to come out, and then the inevitable "GOTYE/SE/DX/EE/AE/" of the game with minor tweaks and changes that fix common complaints.

Also, I'd like to point out that probably the reason the game was advertised as "battling racism" is because of how meaningless the word means today when you can call someone a racist for wanting people to go through the proper legal channels to become a citizen, or wanting to make sure that people entering an area do not have the intent to level it and everyone in the vicinity.
Don't tell me you're a Trump supporter, the word is absolutely not "meaningless" in anyways(seriously stop watching Faux News), there's plenty of legal citizens FAR more dangerous then any immigrants.
A few things wrong with this comment.

First off, yes, the word has become meaningless. All the "-ist" and "-phobic" words have become meaningless lately because it causes the conversation to go into immediate "confirmation bias" mode. Once that happens it's a no win scenario for the opponent, and it's been happening more and more. To combat this, people just turned this cheap tactic into a joke because that's what it is, a joke. Heck, what do you think happened with Ghostbusters (2016)? Also, this election cycle has been cholk-full of confirmation bias (Here's some further reading in case you're curious [http://blog.dilbert.com/]).

Two, what "faux news"? Outside of a few populist sites, every single news network have been anti-Trump [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/06/the-mainstream-media-has-a-donald-j-trump-sized-blind-spot.html] (Though I don't know why this needed to be brought up).

Three, yes, I have to agree. There are a handful of people who are off their rocker. And, you know what, when they do something illegal, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would gladly to lock them up and throw away the key.
No it has not become meaningless just cause you say so.



There is no Trump bias, are you fucking kidding me? Now you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, the fact you're sourcing from a trashy gossip rag like Daily Beast proves my point.

If anything the media has been giving Trump a free ride, as they hardly ever talk about all the shady shit he's been involved(I.E. the Trump university scandal).
I'm no Trump supporter but the whole reason I know about Trump U is because of the media so I'm not sure it's fair to say he's been given a pass on that. As for "racism" being a word without meaning, it really depends on how it's being used. When used as a rhetorical trump card in a way that relies only on an assertion and not any other meaningful criteria, it is pretty useless. But that's not a problem with the word, it's a problem with people engaged in begging the question or goalpost shifting.

OT: The idea of choice and how it plays into oppression is, I think, meaningful but overstated. There are things that we would call "choices" that can very much fall into the realm of oppression. Getting an augmentation is a choice but does not necessarily constitute a good reason for lashing out against the people who are making the choice to become augmented. One's sexual preferences are not a choice but engaging in acts involving homosexual sex is a choice.

Certainly many/most of us would say that banning such acts constitutes oppression, even if what's being banned are things related to choice and not to someone's inherent sexual nature. A guy who gets his arm blown off likely didn't chose that but having said arm replaced is a choice. Neither the loss of said arm nor its totally reasonable replacement via augmentation should serve as grounds for oppressive systems. I think the analogy works fine and that choice or the lack of it is not necessary for determining whether systems should be considered oppressive or not.
 

vallorn

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woodlandkammo said:
It's funny, pacemakers were the exact thing I thought of. Seriously, in this world, exactly how easy is it to be classified as an "Aug"? What about people with cochlear implants? Or just regular prosthetics?
I'd say it's the PIDOT cluster or lack of one that separates prosthetics from "augmentations" seeing as it's a brain, computer interface inside your head that lets you control your cybernetics and it's pretty much what went wrong at the end of HR.
 

Erttheking

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Now I own the original Dues Ex, but I have not gotten around to playing it. Personally I found that HR did a lot of interesting exploring the idea of transhumanism, such as all the positive aspects (Amputees being able to live complete lives, saving people that otherwise couldn't be save, being able to go beyond what it means to be human) along with all of the negative aspects (Favors the rich, gives augs an unfair advantage over non-augs, some people just can't handle their bodies being transformed like that) and the arguments for why people take sades (My body my choice, wealth disparity, not natural, potentially can reach out to everyone some day) as well as the potential dangers. So did the original Dues Ex do something like that? Or are you talking about more philosophical concepts, and if so was that a heavy theme in the original Dues ex?

K12 said:
Couldn't agree more on the shortcomings of the racism analogy... now let's wait for somebody to come along and decide that this kind of nuance in criticism is either racist or SJW political-correctness. I wonder which will happen first.
Well yeah, it's reasonable until you remember the fact that all the augs went kill crazy specifically because every last one of them had been given a tampered datachip by the Illuminati. The odds of them being able to pull the same stunt twice is zill to none, particularly with their supercomputer gone. It's reasonable to people who don't know what the hell happened, but they're acting on partial information, if even that.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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erttheking said:
Now I own the original Dues Ex, but I have not gotten around to playing it. Personally I found that HR did a lot of interesting exploring the idea of transhumanism, such as all the positive aspects (Amputees being able to live complete lives, saving people that otherwise couldn't be save, being able to go beyond what it means to be human) along with all of the negative aspects (Favors the rich, gives augs an unfair advantage over non-augs, some people just can't handle their bodies being transformed like that) and the arguments for why people take sades (My body my choice, wealth disparity, not natural, potentially can reach out to everyone some day) as well as the potential dangers. So did the original Dues Ex do something like that? Or are you talking about more philosophical concepts, and if so was that a heavy theme in the original Dues ex?
First off, I've never been able to finish the original - I came to it just a few years ago, and it's just too dated for me to really get into. Plus, one rather superb element of HR was [almost all of] its voice acting, and DE really is--- well, exactly like going back in time, to an era where production values were scant, and the 'talent' weren't very talented and generally also had bad dialogue and direction to work with.

Like I said, Invisible War is generally reviled by fans of the original, for being a filthy casual streamlined console game. Is it more linear? Sure, but I couldn't compare it to something I never played, so for me it was still pretty damn good at giving you options to explore and deal with situations in a variety of ways.

Anyhoo, as for HR: all the things you remarked are in it, sure, and it presents them just fine - better than average, in fact, given most mainstream media actively shies away from social commentary. However, for me it was just rote text - social commentary 101. It presented the situation finely, but I personally don't feel it had anything to say about it.

My biggest complaint beyond its lack of actual insight was that compared to IW, HR was - to use a phrase first learnt from Fox Mulder... - small potatoes; IW was way out there on the extremes of what was potential with our previously only biological, 'natural' species. HR is just street level groundwork, and IW was the (excuse the figure of speech. no comparison's intended, btw) final solution of each of the main divergent paths; IW could explore that final step into something transcendentally new/different.

I have a feeling - given I've not played it for an entire gen or so - IW was hokey, and rather hamfisted with its bold brushstrokes. Key scenes/meetings or plot beats had Alex D (male or female - I'd like that option back in a DE) standing around with another character, simply talking and sometimes quoting philosophy [https://youtu.be/xBeoreJr4Yc?t=3m13s] (that's a spoiler heavy excerpt, but it gives a good indication of IW's tone and priorities), batting back and forth questions about just what was ethical or moral in a world where mankind could effectively choose and grasp its own destiny, along with all the 'who watches the watchmen' quandaries. IW's ends include a rather chilly utopia (effectively the annihilation of Self/the individual, sacrificed for clear-headed quasi-hive consensus), as well as an apocalyptic wasteland.

By comparison, HR mumbled a bit about welfare systems for people with polymer legs... whilst momentarily teasing a nanomachine future we'd already seen and dealt with. Like I said; small potatoes. Philosophy and ethics were hugely important to IW, but they seemed to be in hiding in HR bar a few cursory conversations. IW provoked long lasting thought as well as years worth of further reading. HR? It was like a quite stylish cop show or action thriller. And that's it. And when the 'secrets' you're working to uncover had been laid bare almost a decade ago, well, it was very hard to care (for me, DE's plot and lore is uninteresting, ergo seeing it all slot into place has no real appeal).

Each to their own, of course. If HR was your first DE, then I can easily see why it might be very impressive and/or satisfying. I still had a lot of fun playing it (including this year on XB1), but only after I'd more or less pretended it was an entirely new and less ambitious IP. Gorgeous art design, though; most of the actual open air zones are blocky and quite ugly, but even this year I was constantly stopping to be impressed by the lengths they'd gone to detail the world (did air vent grille #785 need that high res a workplace sign and attention to graphic design? nope, but it gets it).

Don Incognito said:
It is very much the case. Adam being such an unlikable stereotype of every gruff dudebro videogame protagonist doesn't much help my enjoyment, though JC Denton was much the same in the original.
I don't feel any of the games have presented a particularly compelling or engaging protagonist - to me they're like Shepard's; a not entirely successful halfway house between player character and writer's avatar.

And I'm not sure I'd call Jensen a typical dudebro. I actually came to like his quirky Eastwood-possibly-with-a-respiratory-condition drawl; DE can deal with some genuinely interesting themes, but its lore is inherently goofy, seemingly with its feet still planted in the kinds of conspiracies The X-Files popularised then swiftly ran into the ground. MJ12, aliens, Area 51, shady global conspiracies, etc. If DE is now the aforementioned Adam Jensen: Badass Simulator, then I feel he fits that rather goofy world just fine. An interesting or engaging character he ain't (he barely counts as a character), but he certainly strikes some fancy combat poses, and when upgraded comes across as a veritable god of destruction/ninja-ness who'd put most other action and stealth game protagonists to shame.

I'd like to see the next DE abandon him and feature a new, customisable character with no set gender.

Invisible War's greatest success was shaping a more likable and relatable protagonist. It was a decent enough game, it just fell flat in level design and plotting, especially compared to the original game.
If the original's level design was particularly good, I found it very hard to appreciate - for me it's like Baldur's Gate; probably would've loved it when it came out, but I just can't get into it anymore. The iffy dialogue and voice acting was a bit of a surprise, too.
 

Don Incognito

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Darth Rosenberg said:
For 2000, Deus Ex's voice acting was out of this world, when it came to video games. Today, of course, it is garbage. That's one area where the new games excel, of course--the pretty bells and whistles that increase immersion.

Even today, the level design of the original stands out--Hell's Kitchen and Hong Kong feel nearly as big as the Detroit hub of Human Revolution, and just as stuffed with things to do and discover. As I said, IW's biggest failing; Upper Seattle is barely as big as Sarif Industries.

I actually haven't played the original in about five years, and the sequel in about ten; this thread is making me want to fire them back up.
 

Gatlank

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K12 said:
Couldn't agree more on the shortcomings of the racism analogy... now let's wait for somebody to come along and decide that this kind of nuance in criticism is either racist or SJW political-correctness. I wonder which will happen first.
How long have you been away from the internet?
It was already decided the game was racist, etc. for using the words "mechanical apartheid" and artwork saying "augslives matter".
Not even the former director Gilles Matouba was spared.
 

llubtoille

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Amaror said:
Yeah the racism analogy is pretty funny. You would guess that people would have more of a self-preservation instincts to not treat the augs like shit. I mean we are talking about people here that, if adam is any indication, have the arsenal of a medium-sized military base in their forearms.
That is exactly what I though. It's like going out onto the streets and exclusively antagonizing the people who are openly carrying guns.
Sure they'll get in hella trouble if they react, but if they do react you probably won't be in any condition to laugh at them for it.

And that anti-aug cop partner dude. I was wishing for an option to knock him out and dragged him to that underground aug-doctor, and force a few put in him just to see how he liked it.
 

Erttheking

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Heh. No game ever benefited from standing in the shadow of a classic huh? Well you've given me a lot to think about. I was impressed by Human Revolution, but I'd like to be impressed some more. If Invisible War was considered dumbed down compared to Dues Ex, then I really need to see what it has to offer.