Zero Punctuation: Dragon Age: Origins
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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DA:O is only a dark fantasy is a relative sense. Most fantasy stories are colorful places where the hero and his crew are seemingly immortal, or else only one dies in the most dramatic way possible.
Dragon Age is darker than that because many "good" characters die, the main character can die, blood shoots out everywhere when someone is so much as brushed with bare knuckles and icky things happen to dwarfs that go on wild adventures to find anvils. Yahtzee probably thinks that isn't what "dark" should mean, I for one believe it should be called a brutal fantasy.
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Dark for me would mean the whole thing had a bleak outlook, like the situation the world finds itself in is hopeless and only by immense sacrifice can the hero and his friends even buy people some time and hope.
That is dark, not "We are the only two people who can stop the bad guys from destroying this one region, I will also be constantly reminding you that only this nation is at stake and that the rest of the world could probably handle things if we fail."
Dragon Age is darker than that because many "good" characters die, the main character can die, blood shoots out everywhere when someone is so much as brushed with bare knuckles and icky things happen to dwarfs that go on wild adventures to find anvils. Yahtzee probably thinks that isn't what "dark" should mean, I for one believe it should be called a brutal fantasy.
[edit]
Dark for me would mean the whole thing had a bleak outlook, like the situation the world finds itself in is hopeless and only by immense sacrifice can the hero and his friends even buy people some time and hope.
That is dark, not "We are the only two people who can stop the bad guys from destroying this one region, I will also be constantly reminding you that only this nation is at stake and that the rest of the world could probably handle things if we fail."
Well i can't imagine this post will be read but i believe Yahtzee escaped having to make a real review and say all the real bad things about the game as those things could be perceived as subjective and would easily be dismissed as "game designer wannabe ideas". There is a lot wrong with this game and even though he could have just said that while maintaining the whole "theres nothing original in Origins" argument, he didn't do it because of three things. One, fanboys everywhere would make a barbecue out of it, two he seems to have a lot of respect for bioware and three its not a bad game its just not the great game that it could have been.
also theres the fact that he didnt finish it.
I'd really like if Yahtzee did not back down from this challenge and tackle it head on a second time, im a games reviewer myself and i know how hard it would be to say bad things about a game that sells well, has people fawning over it and manages to do 90% of things right, but fails on the simple basics of narrative concept.
Yahtzee is the only reviewer i know who understands the murky depths of what makes a game great and is also the only one not afraid of sticking those things out.
I was expecting this review to go like with him saying that he liked the game and mentioning all the things the game did right, for about 2 mins, then going ahead and bashing each aspect of it that made its story unremarkably generic, probably with arguments full of references of other, better RPGs, including Baldurs gate II.
As it stands, it seems like Yahtzee didnt have the time to finish it and couldn't review it properly because of that. I hope a series of Extra punctuations come out of this, at least to outright say it if he felt the game was actually good, or was simply an addictive well made yet bland substance for RPG fans to spend their time injecting themselves with, including the actual reasons for saying that.
also theres the fact that he didnt finish it.
I'd really like if Yahtzee did not back down from this challenge and tackle it head on a second time, im a games reviewer myself and i know how hard it would be to say bad things about a game that sells well, has people fawning over it and manages to do 90% of things right, but fails on the simple basics of narrative concept.
Yahtzee is the only reviewer i know who understands the murky depths of what makes a game great and is also the only one not afraid of sticking those things out.
I was expecting this review to go like with him saying that he liked the game and mentioning all the things the game did right, for about 2 mins, then going ahead and bashing each aspect of it that made its story unremarkably generic, probably with arguments full of references of other, better RPGs, including Baldurs gate II.
As it stands, it seems like Yahtzee didnt have the time to finish it and couldn't review it properly because of that. I hope a series of Extra punctuations come out of this, at least to outright say it if he felt the game was actually good, or was simply an addictive well made yet bland substance for RPG fans to spend their time injecting themselves with, including the actual reasons for saying that.
Really whether or not a game is great is subjective. I've seen people who didn't like baldur's gate.
I didnt say baldurs gate II is perfect, and even jesus wasn't liked by everyone, what i was saying is that baldur's gate II (not 1 and not the expansion either) was probably the best RPG bioware did (back when they were in black isle obviously, and this is a disputably irrelevant comment) because it got the basics of Narrative progression right. As references go, other games are supposed to be used as a means of comparison for grounding specific valid arguments and several other examples would be forthcoming as well. It is NOT for saying "This game is not as good as That game" as you seem to imply (and as i should expect most forum readers would to perceive it to be, i suppose).Mr.Lucifer said:
Well, to say something about the "dark" in this fantasy game... I don' t know about you, but venturing deep into the Deep Roads and finding the disturbing stuff in there, I can honestly say that this game has earned the dark fantasy title. Sure, you might have seen many demonic fiends in your days, but not always you are given the insight of HOW they were made.
DA:O is a good fantasy game. It doesn't give big huge innovations, it just gives a new spin on some old cliches, while also offering quests with often (and sometimes quite complicated) moral decisions. At this point of time, there is little that hasn't been done before. If you think there is, go to Tvtropes and prove yourself wrong. Is that a bad thing? Good heavens no. If given a choice, I rather take something that has changed only slightly, but is still recognizable and familiar, rather than something, which requires LSD to figure out. I don't want this "innvation" that everyone and their mother tries to achieve these days. I just want good, solid games. And Dragon Age, of course, with it's flaws, is just that - a good, solid game. Great characters, good dialogue, solid squad based gameplay. In short, a Bioware game.
If you don't wonder if this game is worth your money, ask yourself - when was the last time you had 60 hours of the first playthrough for $50? I can't remember. Yes, my first playthrough took 60 hours. That's one character, one origin, and mostly the plot with few sidequests. This game is worth playing, and it is great to see Yahtzee, someone who isn't that extremely into RPGs to get sucked in while playing.
DA:O is a good fantasy game. It doesn't give big huge innovations, it just gives a new spin on some old cliches, while also offering quests with often (and sometimes quite complicated) moral decisions. At this point of time, there is little that hasn't been done before. If you think there is, go to Tvtropes and prove yourself wrong. Is that a bad thing? Good heavens no. If given a choice, I rather take something that has changed only slightly, but is still recognizable and familiar, rather than something, which requires LSD to figure out. I don't want this "innvation" that everyone and their mother tries to achieve these days. I just want good, solid games. And Dragon Age, of course, with it's flaws, is just that - a good, solid game. Great characters, good dialogue, solid squad based gameplay. In short, a Bioware game.
If you don't wonder if this game is worth your money, ask yourself - when was the last time you had 60 hours of the first playthrough for $50? I can't remember. Yes, my first playthrough took 60 hours. That's one character, one origin, and mostly the plot with few sidequests. This game is worth playing, and it is great to see Yahtzee, someone who isn't that extremely into RPGs to get sucked in while playing.
Scunthorpe's not that small is it? Looked about the same size as Lincoln last time I went there.dazdex said:That joke doesn't work on us mate.Thraxio said:Does make it a bastard when putting in your home town when trying to register for something though.
Anyway hurray he mentioned my little town I feel so special.
I used to use 'Scumthorpe', but it got rejected by one of my mates who supports them. :'(
One thing I am surprised that wasn't mentioned was DA:O's lack of a karma meter. Considering how much he despises the standard "Mother Theresa vs Baby Eating" alignment systems, I would have thought DA:O would have been somewhat refreshing.
It is around the same size as Lincoln but doesnt seem to have much in it, but since I live in Lincoln I'm probly just bias.Thraxio said:Scunthorpe's not that small is it? Looked about the same size as Lincoln last time I went there.dazdex said:That joke doesn't work on us mate.Thraxio said:
Anyway hurray he mentioned my little town I feel so special.
I used to use 'Scumthorpe', but it got rejected by one of my mates who supports them. :'(
Good review. I'm glad to see he liked it enough to want to keep going with it. I think the strongest point of BioWare games is the story, and this has been one of the most compelling stories I've seen in the medium. I say this, of course, as an obsessive Baldur's Gate fan, with which this game shares many, many elements.
I will say, I disagree with his opinion on the cut-scenes. I thought the BioWare animators did a much better job at avoiding the uncanny valley than, say, Oblivion where everyone stood stock-still and just stared at you. Conversations were dynamic, people moved about. Sure, you still get some of that stiffness from the modeling, but I just don't think the tech is there to do much better yet. Certainly the conversations were more engaging and immersive than many other titles.
I will say, I disagree with his opinion on the cut-scenes. I thought the BioWare animators did a much better job at avoiding the uncanny valley than, say, Oblivion where everyone stood stock-still and just stared at you. Conversations were dynamic, people moved about. Sure, you still get some of that stiffness from the modeling, but I just don't think the tech is there to do much better yet. Certainly the conversations were more engaging and immersive than many other titles.
stevec666 said:FIRST
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ziggybogidou said:
RyoScar said:
*sigh* I knew this was going to happen. But I'm still mad about it anyway.JakeX said:
Please stop trying to get first post, people, your only reward will be a suspension or probation.
Anyway, it's good to see Yahtzee reviewing this blockbuster of a game. I like RPGs and I like Bioware, so from what Yahtzee's said, I'm guessing Dragon Age: Origins might be a good game for me.
"And if you don't like Fantasy RPGs then I guess you can just go off have sex with people instead."
Okay then I will.
Okay then I will.