Zero Punctuation: Papers, Please and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

[FieryTrainwreck]

People do realize that an argument of the form "you can't recognize your own privilege because you are only capable of viewing it through the lens of said privilege" is basically circular/self-insulating, right?

Why do we need a term to describe 99.7% (in America, anyways) of non-trans adults? From a sheer stat/probability perspective, "cis" is lunacy.

 

[JimB]

Well, homosexuality, as I see it, is to do with sex, and not gender.

That may have sounded like a compromise in your mind, but I think this is an issue for which compromise is impossible. Either you accept that the person belongs to the sex he says he does, or you don't, and saying, "I'll treat you socially as being your gender but your body is still the only thing that defines your sex, so I'll attach asterisks to my descriptions of you," is on the you don't side of the equation.

Of course it's hypocritical. Why should trans people be immune to jokes, but not other groups of people.

Why is it people on the internet seem to assume that being okay with one instance of a thing occurring confers upon a person the responsibility to be okay with all instances of that thing occurring, regardless of context? It's like saying that if I support killing an armed intruder in your home, I must therefore be okay with sniping random strangers on the street because killing is killing and I have to support it all. That's simplistic crap. There is nothing hypocritical about saying, "That joke about me hurt my feelings," but not saying, "That joke about someone else hurt my feelings." Indeed, I'd argue that latter statement is likely complete nonsense.

Basically what that person is saying is that he doesn't care about the Jews, he only cares about him/herself.

Why should he? Honestly, why should he care about the Jews? Has even one Jewish person raised his voice to declare that he is offended by the Holocaust joke in this video? I certainly haven't noticed anyone doing so, so why should he be offended on behalf of people who are not offended on their own behalf?

I assume you can cite studies about gender dysmorphia and the neurochemistry of people who identify as female to back up this assertion of yours.

Yeah it's called any biology book ever since chromosomes were discovered.

Okay, so, cite them. Let's hear what these books you mention have to say about gender dysmorphia and the involved neurochemistry of their brains.

Yes, I'll accept them when they start acting normal instead of acting like some spoiled brats that want everyone to pander to them, tell them how special little butterflies they are, lie to them that yeah sure you're a female now Stev...err...Patricia and there's nothing gay in sucking cock, and when they can take a joke at their expense just like every other normal person can.

You just called transsexuals liars about their sex. You also said they're not normal people. You have adequately demonstrated that you will not under any circumstances accept them, so you might as well go ahead and drop the pretense that they could do anything to earn acceptance from you. It obviously won't happen, so quit trying to tell everyone it's their fault you won't accept them.

For fuck's sake, we're living in a world where assholes like you make it seem that if you crack a blonde joke or a joke about trannies, then you're public enemy number one, that spreads hate[sic], misogynistic pig, transophobe, a fucking barbarian.

Given that the word "trannies" is a pejorative term similar to "fag" or "******," yes, I am comfortable saying that you, personally, BrendanFinn, spread hate. That you use that term in the context of the rest of your post, and while calling me an asshole for not thinking it's cool to do so, reinforces my belief.

You want to fight for a cause, there are far worthier causes out there then whiteknighting and social justicing on a bloody internet forum against a fucking comedian that told a bloody joke.
Fucking perspective, you really could do with some.

So could you, since, if you bother to read my posts in this thread, you will see that I have defended the joke (which, for the record, I do not think is is a transsexual joke but is a lying politician joke) and that I haven't mentioned the joke itself to you. I have been talking about transsexuality to you. You're the one who brought the joke up, and it's only just now that you've done it.

 

[gjkbgt]

Causing people great harm for no reason or for your own personal gain is evil in my book.

Evil is a word you use to describe a situation were the morality is absolute.
it's used to justify not trying to understand actions.
the classic example is the nazis are evil.
and if that's the less you take from history you are missing the point so badly it hurts

 

[Fenix7]

13 pages of replies to this video? I wonder what in the world is going on....

That transsexual joke killed it. I stopped watching straight after. And it's my last Yahtzee video.

I know he can be offensive, but that's just completely uncalled for.

Oh... right. Stay classy, Escapist community!

 

[Bradmaster Flash]

All I can see here is "Stop laughing at what I don't find funny!". Why are you people even on the internet if you are unable to accept a few jokes? Far worse things have been said, get a sense of humour.

Just because a joke targets a specific demographic that you're part of, it doesn't make it prohibited just because you don't like it. I hardly believe that Yahtzee is transphobic, and if you really do believe that after a few jokes, you need to grow a thicker skin.

 

[Legion]

We of might well as speak of potato.

Did somebody say potato?

Sorry, just trying to bring some humour back into the discussion.

OT: I can see why people would find the joke offensive, but what I cannot understand is the attitude that he shouldn't have made it. Especially considering a lot of people seem to be implying our outright stating that Yahtzee has something against transgender people. By that logic he has something against pretty much everyone because he makes jokes about. He has made jokes about all kinds of things from religion and sexuality to race and class and people have never really cared.

When it comes to humour then I don't see how you can claim there should be some kind of line that can be drawn, jokes are either okay or they are not. It is not fair to pick and choose what jokes are "acceptable" based upon your own personal preference.

People have the right to dislike it, and express their dislike, but calls for an apology or the video being taken down are going too far.

Is not possible. Thread is lost. We can not get on topic back. Topic is lost, as taken to Ministerium house lost.

We of might well as speak of potato.

I have images saved for times like this.

I got the joke in regards to fleeing the first time I saw that image, but I only just now got the pun in the word "posts". That is depressingly slow for me.

 

[The Last Parade]

I wish Yahtzee would play some Greenlight games

Any suggestions?

I want to see him try the Pinball Arcade. Yeah it'll basically just be Yahtzee reviewing pinball but that could be entertaining.

I'd say Gone Home and Dream. Both very pretty and cool games, I particularly like Gone Home... also Outlast, creepy as all fuck haha

 

[Neferius]

A genuinely engaging paperwork simulator is far worthier of your time than the 70-thausandth slightly engaging gunfight.

The reason i HATE "Papers Please" is the same as to why i loathe the novel "1984" by George Orwell.
The premise i laudable, expose the dreary wickedness born of a communist totalitarian regime...
But they both do so by slowly dehumanizing the protagonist, systematically reducing him to a creature of sub-human morals before completely pulling the rug from underneath him, ultimately condemning him to a fate worse than death.
A slow and agonizing endeavor on the part of the audience that is ultimately rewarded with bitterness and disgust.
It is the most despicable sort of drama, one without any meaningful conclusion or moral lesson. Only bile.

That being said, there are roumoured to be some gunfights later-on in the game, so i shall plow through it like i did with Orwell's "magnum opus"

 

[JonB]

Hi Everyone,

Please start behaving yourselves. Discuss civilly. Stay on topic.

If anyone posts anything further in this thread that's worth a warning, then they're going to earn a probation or suspension instead of a warning.

Some of you seem confused about the code of conduct, well, it's right here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

 

[paulbnet]

I have [edit] redacted most of this post incase it caused any offence. This has turned into a shit storm I want nothing to do with [end edit]

As for Papers Please, it`s bloody awesome. Does anyone know the unlock code for the endless mode yet?

PS [redacted]

 

[solidstatemind]

A few observations from the token old dude:
1) Even if you find them racist, homophobic, speciest, misogynistic, ignorant, rude, tasteless, or just simply uncouth, jokes are in fact included under 'free speech.'

2) If you don't want to risk being offended by what you read or see on the Internet, you should just unplug your connection now. The Internet is a wild and wooly place: that's exactly what simultaneously elevates it and degrades it. Remember, for every mind-expanding essay you find, there will be thousands of scatalogically-focused pornography pages.

3) Life is short. You can't personally right every wrong, so choose your crusades carefully, else you'll wake up one day to find that you've spent so much time fighting for others that you've done nothing at all for yourself. My advice? Wait for causes that are personally relevant, you believe to be earth-shatteringly, end-of-society-level critical, or are heinously underexposed. While I can't speak to the first, I can promise you that transsexualism, gender reassignment, and gender identity have been being thought about by some very intelligent people since as early as the '60s.

4) (possibly most importantly) If you truly take issue with something, throwing unsupported opinions combined with belittling accusations out there has to be one of the least effective methods of supporting your beliefs. Find some references to back up your point of view and use them. Not only does it keep you from looking like all the other braying jackasses out there spouting their knee-jerk opinions, it also can serve to educate you further about what you are evangelizing for. Believe me, there has been many times in my life when doing further research showed me that I did not properly understand the point of view I was supporting.

I'll climb down off the soapbox now. (In a Robocop voice I appreciate your cooperation.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

The sequel should be called Papers Please: Wolfram Edition.

-new person
-detained
-new person
-detained
-new person
-detained
-new person
-detained
-new person
-detained

You are the only person, other than me, who I know to have mentioned Wolfsmund on this forum.
God speed you sir.

 

[Evonisia]

papers please is soooo feindishly addictive.

Jokes against transsexuals were completely unnecessary and completely offensive.

You didn't mention the "As useful as a wi-fi connection in Auschwitz's prison showers" joke.

Grow a sense of humor. There's no genuine hate behind any of the jokes he does.

3 separate jokes bashing transsexuals in a single episode isn't humorous at all.

3?

And it is humorous, just because you were offended doesn't mean somebody else didn't laugh or rather, just because you were offended doesn't mean that it wasn't done for comedic effect.

 

[Mikejames]

Poor Yahtzee, I really enjoyed his videos, now the legions of tumblr are descending on him, he wont survive this.

Tumblr getting unnecessarily offended by something is hardly noteworthy. I've seen a series of social justice bloggers characterize weeding as racist because of the sentiment of depicting some plants as being lesser...

 

[Warachia]

Well, homosexuality, as I see it, is to do with sex, and not gender.

That may have sounded like a compromise in your mind, but I think this is an issue for which compromise is impossible. Either you accept that the person belongs to the sex he says he does, or you don't, and saying, "I'll treat you socially as being your gender but your body is still the only thing that defines your sex, so I'll attach asterisks to my descriptions of you," is on the you don't side of the equation.

You misunderstood them, they meant as in the act of having sex, not sex as in male or female, you were saying what they were already doing, but I don't know what you mean by "is on the you don't side of the equation".

Of course it's hypocritical. Why should trans people be immune to jokes, but not other groups of people.

Why is it people on the internet seem to assume that being okay with one instance of a thing occurring confers upon a person the responsibility to be okay with all instances of that thing occurring, regardless of context? It's like saying that if I support killing an armed intruder in your home, I must therefore be okay with sniping random strangers on the street because killing is killing and I have to support it all. That's simplistic crap. There is nothing hypocritical about saying, "That joke about me hurt my feelings," but not saying, "That joke about someone else hurt my feelings." Indeed, I'd argue that latter statement is likely complete nonsense.

I'm sorry, but your argument here is bullshit, sniping random strangers on the street is in no way similar to killing an intruder in your home, jokes about or at two different groups of people are similar, because they do the same thing (antagonizing) to both groups, whereas in your example your sniping people who did nothing wrong, as opposed to criminals who possible want to kill you.

A little while ago I watched am old Jimquisition episode where he was addressing a gay Sheppard in ME3 (the episode's called "a case for a gay Sheppard."), people were saying that if you want to include gay people, you needed to include pedophiles since otherwise it would be discriminatory, despite the two being entirely different.

Basically what that person is saying is that he doesn't care about the Jews, he only cares about him/herself.

Why should he? Honestly, why should he care about the Jews? Has even one Jewish person raised his voice to declare that he is offended by the Holocaust joke in this video? I certainly haven't noticed anyone doing so, so why should he be offended on behalf of people who are not offended on their own behalf?

He's saying that the person in question is selfish and only cares about what offends them as opposed to caring about what others thought of the episode. I don't really have anything more to add, just thought I'd clarify that.

Okay, so, cite them. Let's hear what these books you mention have to say about gender dysmorphia and the involved neurochemistry of their brains.

They don't have anything to say about gender disphoria (as far as I remember), because they aren't psychology textbooks, having gender dysphoria does not change your XX chromosomes to XY (and vice versa).

 

[Boris Guyon-Pelfrene]

The problem is that in society, trans people are not part of the "group"

They are ridiculed and ostracised by a huge majority of people, long before any of the cheap internet or tv show jokes.

Forget it, there's no reasoning with people. Some people here really need to check their privilige and understand that making jokes between friends isn't the same as being ridiculed in almost every depiction. Being ridiculed as the most socially accepted group of people in your country is not the same as being ridiculed as the least socially accepted group of people in a country.

Think of it like school, there's that kind of nerdy kid that everyone makes fun of all the time because he's overweight and rubbish at sport. Life isn't going to improve for him just by laughing it off. Life is going to improve for him if he, and a bunch of his classmates who arn't in his position start to take a stand against it.

There's a difference between playful jokes and ridicule, and when it comes to denying trans people are the gender the identify as in a very popular web show, then it's not a playful joke. Maybe for you it seems like that, but that's because you're in a ridiculously priviliged position in comparison to trans people.

As far as I know know there's never been a case in my group of friends rejecting a minority. I'm in fact good friends with a transgendered man. And while I know that I don't represent all scenarios, I can say that the way you present yourself, saying that you are not part of the group before people even have a chance to accept you is part of the problem.

Furthermore, you shouldn't be offended if people rebut your accusations, especially when you claim things as fact with little to no evidence backing it up. Most things written on Wikipedia crumble if there are no citations for them. If people think you are exaggerating or making stuff up, they're going to challenge you on it; believe it or not they're more than happy to accept your claims if you just give them evidence.

Finally, thank you for telling us to check our privilege before you left, as if a nail to the coffin that is your argument.

 

[Warachia]

A genuinely engaging paperwork simulator is far worthier of your time than the 70-thausandth slightly engaging gunfight.

The reason i HATE "Papers Please" is the same as to why i loathe the novel "1984" by George Orwell.
The premise i laudable, expose the dreary wickedness born of a communist totalitarian regime...
But they both do so by slowly dehumanizing the protagonist, systematically reducing him to a creature of sub-human morals before completely pulling the rug from underneath him, ultimately condemning him to a fate worse than death.
A slow and agonizing endeavor on the part of the audience that is ultimately rewarded with bitterness and disgust.
It is the most despicable sort of drama, one without any meaningful conclusion or moral lesson. Only bile.

That being said, there are roumoured to be some gunfights later-on in the game, so i shall plow through it like i did with Orwell's "magnum opus"

I didn't like 1984 either, but you don't have to be broken by papers please:

Spoiler

If you want you can save up enough money (most likely at the expense of your family) for a short period, and take passports in order to get you and your family safely away to a different (far better) country where you can start over, and I like that ending a lot, the people you take the passports from will get new ones when they call the number you give them, and your family is safe from the terrorist attacks and oppressive government of Arstotzka.

 

[JimB]

You misunderstood him. He meant as in the act of having sex, not sex as in male or female.

If that's the case, then he's still saying someone born male who identifies as female is male, since having sex with her is gay.

I don't know what you mean by "is on the you don't side of the equation."

I said something to the effect of, "Either you support them, or you don't." I believe razer17 doesn't: therefore, he comes down on the "you don't" side of that binary question.

Sniping random strangers on the street is in no way similar to killing an intruder in your home.

And I don't think that jokes about a group of people who are offended by the jokes are similar to jokes about a group of people who, to all current evidence, are not offended by them.

A little while ago I watched an old Jimquisition episode where he was addressing a gay Sheppard in Mass Effect 3 (the episode's called "a Case for a Gay Sheppard"). People were saying that if you want to include gay people, you needed to include pedophiles since otherwise it would be discriminatory, despite the two being entirely different.

If I remember that conversation correctly, the people saying so want to argue that consensual sex between two adults of the same gender is equivalent to an adult preying upon a child, so I don't much care what those people think "inclusion" means.

He's saying that the person in question is selfish and only cares about what offends them as opposed to caring about what others thought of the episode.

He's also saying that the selfishness is inherently hypocritical. I don't object to describing the guy as selfish, but the hypocrisy part gets me, and my text that you are responding to is why.

They don't have anything to say about gender dysphoria (as far as I remember), because they aren't psychology textbooks.

Then I'm not much interested in his cherry-picked evidence.

Having gender dysphoria does not change your XX chromosomes to XY (and vice versa).

I never said it does. I asked him to explain in detail what sex is, citing people who have more authority to make those judgments than he does. I personally do not believe chromosomal pairings are enough, because they ignore the complexity of the brain and its interactions with the body. If he wants to convince me otherwise, then he's going to have to do more work than some flip "Every biology book ever, none of which I will reference by name or quote because that's how right I am" crap.

 

[TallanKhan]

I thought in terms of a review of the games this was a fairly comprehensive episode, and I have to admit I never thought i would want to play a paperwork simulator, but...

On the subject of the joke that has consumed a large portion of this thread, my thoughts can best be summed up by quoting a line from Yahtzee's 50 Cent, Blood on the Sand review: "A society where anyone can make jokes about anyone else and everyone laughs is a truly tolerant society"

 

[Joel Bridge]

Personally I sleep with couple pre-op transgender women, and never question my sexuality it all I saying.