Zero Punctuation: Papers, Please and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

[RickyChinese]

Wow. Very disappointed by some of the views espoused here. Sometimes jokes do more to dehumanise certain groups than they do to amuse people. I'd like to think that if somebody uttered a racial slur or made a gay joke there would be more backlash against teh joke culprit but I've been disappointed before.

 

[Turbo_ski]

In terms of the dick sucking joke, here's my oppinion: People are offended by the fact that the joke infers that if you suck the dick of a pre-op, you are gay, and as such that a pre-op transexual is still a man, even if she considers herself a woman. That's the offensive part, right? That Yahtzee is saying that she is still a man, at least until she is post op.

Transfolk have to deal with mainstream media cracking jokes on our identities and implying that were perverted freaks. It's never transgenders that are making these jokes either, it's cisgender people. This is the equivalent of white comedian cracking jokes about racial minorities using racial slurs and implying that they are stupid or sub-human in some way. The exception is that this is the only visibility transgender folk are allowed which makes these jokes fact is the eyes of the populace. Which in turn leads to real violence and discrimination against transgenders. Since Yahtzee isn't transgender, I find this ignorant and crude joke as contributing to the negative views society has for transgenders.

Well, homosexuality, as I see it, is to do with sex, and not gender. And a pre-op transexual is still a male, even though they maybe a woman in terms of gender. So I don't think Yatzhee is necessarily
saying that if you have a penis you should be treated like a man (Maybe he thinks that, maybe he doesn't), but that sucking a dick is a gay thing to do. And I tend to agree with that sentiment. But hey, what do I know?

You have it backwards. Sexual orientation is an attraction to a type of gender not sex. When you look at a clothed person you can only see their gender and have no idea what their sex is. It is the gender that cause men and women to be attracted to each other, otherwise everyone would be sniffing each others' crotches to find mates. This is why many straight men will be attracted to a transwoman, but not at all towards a gay man.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Hi Everyone,

Please start behaving yourselves. Discuss civilly. Stay on topic.

If anyone posts anything further in this thread that's worth a warning, then they're going to earn a probation or suspension instead of a warning.

Some of you seem confused about the code of conduct, well, it's right here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

If something is worth a warning, then shouldn't it just get a warning?
I don't understand why the rules would change specifically for this thread.

 

[Donzacuceron]

What the hell is going on in this comment section?

People are being stupid ... so nothing new.

 

[Batou667]

Greetings,

I was inspired to create this account when I saw the initial post on Tumblr.

Most of you seem like very bright, intelligent individuals. But underlying your words seems to be a cruel streak towards the LBGT, Trans, and Otherkin community.

Stopped reading there.

This is why transexuals don't get taken seriously.

 

[JimB]

If I missed it while you went on about how tough it was for transsexuals, please point it out to me.

Do a Ctrl + F search for the word "evil" on the previous page. You'll find it.

Exactly, that's what I was saying. If you read the rest of my post you would have seen that.

I know you did. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I never said I was disagreeing with you. Stop accusing me of not reading your posts just because you don't understand my responses and are projecting some kind of antagonism onto me. All I said was I don't care what those people think; as in, you can quit bringing them up.

You didn't read it.

I did read it. It did not answer my questions. You have decided to assert that I didn't read it because that makes it easier for you to say this disagreement is my fault.

If you had, you would have seen the part where I pointed out that sexual characteristics are not determined by the brain.

You asserted that without a single reference I could detect to anything more recent or focused on the issue than a dictionary. You never addressed the ongoing discussion in the medical community, nor named an authority who has addressed the discussion.

I'll spell it out: Sex and gender are two different things/i].

Warachia, I get that you're mad at me, okay? I understand that. Since you have made that point clear, I assume it is now out of your system and you will refrain from condescending to me as if I am so ignorant I need your help to understand the hitherto foreign revelation that different words don't mean the same things. I hope venting your spleen has made you feel better.

Of course sex and gender are different things. Sex refers to physical characteristics, while gender refers to social roles. Since our understanding of humanity's construction is increasing, it is possible that the definitions for sex will evolve. Do you have any information to offer which directly addresses the questions I've asked and casts them aside in favor of the old definitions, or are you only going to refer to those that don't address the ongoing debate?

I do not know why some medical communities classify it as a mental disorder and others do not. I don't have any opinion on that.

I am deeply amused that you admit this so plainly after having insisted so many times that you did in fact answer my questions.

 

[JimB]

Normally, a thread as vitriolic and derailed as this would've been locked many pages ago. But because this is a Featured Content thread, it cannot be locked.

I hadn't understood that. My apologies. I will stop contributing to the derail...though may I ask, does this derail differ significantly from those in Jimquisition or the Big Picture threads?

 

[GildaTheGriffin]

How come the video thumbnail is like a broken picture symbol?

 

[SoulkeeperX]

I don't understand how people can be offended by this, but then again, look at the time we're living in. He's YAHTZEE, he makes hundreds of funny video game reviews on the internet, why is he being held to the same standards as say, a politician? He's a guy on the internet, he's not campaigning for votes and someone caught him on tape bashing transsexuals. Context makes a huge difference here, and I bet all the people who were offended won't give a shit about this in a week, if they even still care.

 

[Simca]

There's a difference between playful jokes and ridicule, and when it comes to denying trans people are the gender the identify as in a very popular web show, then it's not a playful joke. Maybe for you it seems like that, but that's because you're in a ridiculously priviliged position in comparison to trans people.

And to think, you would actually have a point if he denied transsexual people, but he didn't.

Actually, he made a joke about how a guy who sleeps with pre op trans girls is gay. Which is saying that pre op trans girls are men. Which is denying that a pre op trans girl is a girl.



Would a picture of me convince you I'm not trolling?

To be fair, the definition of a male is that he A: Produces sperm, and B: Has a Y Chromosome. And until you can eliminate these two criterias from an individual, HE is by all accounts, a physiological male, no matter how much make-up.
And no don't send pics, this isn't craigslist goddammit.

Please don't pretend to be a forum scientist because you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Both of your criteria listed for being a male are wrong, both are wrong under the sex and gender definitions of 'male' and the first point is still wrong even by the genetic definition of the word 'male'.

That said, I doubt any trans individuals were offended at this. This is incredibly tame compared to the normal shit that they have to deal with.

"How strange, this woman has and was born with a Y chromosone." - Said by no scientist ever.
They aren't wrong, if you want to say that they are you are going to need to point out how, and if you can, you're going to need to post the correct criteria.

This is not remotely an exhaustive list of possible definitions, but I'll post the three I was talking about.

Gender (identity): A person's feeling of self and secureness in their sexual characteristics and in the way they present themselves to the world. The concept of self is reinforced by gender (the social construct), and their secureness in their sexual characteristics is often heavily influenced by gender (their hormonal makeup).

Sex (physical biology): The physical primary and secondary sex characteristics of an individual. These can be changed via surgery to match the opposing sex, or they can be that way from birth due to genetic anomalies (see: intersex conditions).

Sex (genetic): The type and number of sex chromosomes in the majority of an individual's genes. XX is standard female, XY is standard male. This is far less important than people used to think because the Y chromosome's role has been determined to be mostly just influencing hormones, which we can mimic through artificial hormones and hormone replacement therapy.

Intersex conditions (genetic): People with genetic abnormalities exist, such as a single X, XXX, XXY, XXXX, XXXY, and XXXXX. Three sex chromosome mutations are the most common, and thankfully the least impactful. Women with XXX will be stronger and sometimes infertile with a few health conditions. Men with XXY will be weaker, often develop breasts, and have less prominent male sex characteristics. Women with a single X have a significant number of health problems, and several can be fatal. As for XXXX, XXXY, and others, anything past three chromosomes usually results in death. There are survivors... but they probably wished that they died instead.


There are also other physical intersex conditions, resulting in stuff like having multiple vaginas (in rare cases, accompanied by two sets of functioning internal organs, resulting in a bizarre situation where somebody can be pregnant twice at once). Anyway, these are just a few of the definitions you could use; I mention a couple of others as well that you can probably figure out just from context (though the hormonal makeup one is perhaps more complex than it appears). There is no one definition for gender or sex. They're very complex subjects.

 

[Un34rth]

This thread is glorious. Never thought I'd see so people get upset over nothing at all. No one is safe from Yahtzee's wrath, figured people would know that by now.

Untwist your panties and for fucks sake grow some thicker skin. Life isn't long enough to whine about jokes. I don't see Christians up in arms over Jim Jefferies bashing their religion or any black people bitching about a white comic making racially insensitive jokes.

 

[Warachia]

If I missed it while you went on about how tough it was for transsexuals, please point it out to me.

Do a Ctrl + F search for the word "evil" on the previous page. You'll find it.

I'll do that, you said "Evil is a word you use to describe a situation were the morality is absolute.
it's used to justify not trying to understand actions."
"The people attacking the transsexual person gain nothing from it but the cheap thrill of self-righteousness and hatred co-mingling, and as far as I'm concerned, hurting someone for no personal gain other than the pleasure of the act is the best possible definition for evil"

Now, neither of these answer the question: "Why do you care so much that it's called a gay action?" There is nothing wrong with it being called gay, and since the definition of homosexual actions is sexual actions between two members of the same sex, then calling it gay is correct.

If you don't like it because you feel people who call it gay are doing so only to be hurtful towards the other party, then please just say that.

I'll spell it out: Sex and gender are two different things/i].

Warachia, I get that you're mad at me, okay? I understand that. Since you have made that point clear, I assume it is now out of your system and you will refrain from condescending to me as if I am so ignorant I need your help to understand the hitherto foreign revelation that different words don't mean the same things. I hope venting your spleen has made you feel better.

Of course sex and gender are different things. Sex refers to physical characteristics, while gender refers to social roles. Since our understanding of humanity's construction is increasing, it is possible that the definitions for sex will evolve. Do you have any information to offer which directly addresses the questions I've asked and casts them aside in favor of the old definitions, or are you only going to refer to those that don't address the ongoing debate?

Thanks, it did, I have no interest in whatever debate is going on in the medical community, I want to get back to the original reason I started arguing with you, razer17 said that if a person whose sex is male, has intercourse or gives a blowjob to another person whose sex is male, than it is a homosexual action. You disagreed, but I said that this is true, since the definition of a homosexual action is determined exclusively by sex, and not by gender.

If you want to discuss gender, then that is an entirely different, and I am not interested in discussing that, if you still want an answer to how the brain affects a persons sex, then I'll give it to you: it doesn't. It can only affect gender.

I have a feeling that a lot of our argument is because of a lack of understanding of the words we've been using, when you've been asking me about how the brain affects the sex of a person, I'm guessing you mean gender, when I say that the [brain doesn't affect the sexual characteristics of a person, I mean that it does not affect what makes them the sex that they are, sexual characteristics in this case refer to the male reproductive organs, and female reproductive organs, and not gender.

You've said previously I didn't have any references, which is a lie since I've very clearly linked my sources, and the medical definition is more than adequate enough, but if you really want sources again, with authors listed, then here you go: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sex, use CTRL+F, and look up "Word Origin and History" or look up "Douglas Harper". If you wanted to see study links, they are linked in the medical definition that I linked as well as the others I linked. The definition describes the sexual characteristics of a man, as well as a woman, and why they are called that, the brain has nothing to do with any of this.

One more thing: "Do you have any information to offer which directly addresses the questions I've asked and casts them aside in favor of the old definitions" I'm not entirely sure what you meant when you wrote this, but the old definitions are fine, there's good reasons why they've been used for hundreds of years, and why we had to attach secondary definitions of them to clear some things up (gender onto sex for example).

I do not know why some medical communities classify it as a mental disorder and others do not. I don't have any opinion on that.

I am deeply amused that you admit this so plainly after having insisted so many times that you did in fact answer my questions.

Saying I don't know is still an answer. I have answered all of the questions you've asked me, you just haven't accepted some of my answers, so you gave me no indication that you read them. If I missed a question, please point me to it.

 

[Warachia]

Snip.

Thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for, and it was helpful, I didn't really know about many of those intersex conditions, I'd like to say though that there are definitions for gender, and sex, just as there are exceptions to sex, I can't think of how there would be an exception to gender given that's how the person views them self.
I've already linked many in my ongoing argument with JimB, but here you go anyway: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sex, of course everybody does not fall into the categories that they've made.

 

[JimB]

I'll do that, you said "Evil is a word you use to describe a situation were the morality is absolute.
it's used to justify not trying to understand actions."
"The people attacking the transsexual person gain nothing from it but the cheap thrill of self-righteousness and hatred co-mingling, and as far as I'm concerned, hurting someone for no personal gain other than the pleasure of the act is the best possible definition for evil"

As I said at the top of this page, I will not participate further in this discussion with you because I think it would be disrespectful to the mods who wish they could lock the thread. I will, however, point out that I only said one of the above statements which you have attributed to me. I have no idea who made the other.

 

[JonB]

Hi Everyone,

Please start behaving yourselves. Discuss civilly. Stay on topic.

If anyone posts anything further in this thread that's worth a warning, then they're going to earn a probation or suspension instead of a warning.

Some of you seem confused about the code of conduct, well, it's right here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

If something is worth a warning, then shouldn't it just get a warning?
I don't understand why the rules would change specifically for this thread.

Because some people seem to find it fun to break the rules again and again just because others are. We don't lock feature content threads. That's just not something we do. I can, and will, hand out elevated penalties so that a thread falls back in line.

 

[Strain42]

So I have a question about Papers, Please that kinda wasn't addressed in the video but it's something that crossed my mind while I was thinking about buying this game and watching some trailers for it.

You get paid by how many people you process in a day, yes?
If you mess up and let someone through who wasn't supposed to, you get a citation, yes?

Both of those things make sense to me.

But is there any penalty to using the red stamp on someone who didn't do anything wrong? I mean sure, morally I get it, but I mean from a purely gameplay perspective.

Is there any in-game penalty for looking at a flawless passport and using the red stamp anyways?

If not, what's to stop you from simply using the red stamp on everybody real quick like? (aside from boredom I suppose)

 

[Miroluck]

So I have a question about Papers, Please that kinda wasn't addressed in the video but it's something that crossed my mind while I was thinking about buying this game and watching some trailers for it.

You get paid by how many people you process in a day, yes?
If you mess up and let someone through who wasn't supposed to, you get a citation, yes?

Both of those things make sense to me.

But is there any penalty to using the red stamp on someone who didn't do anything wrong?

Yes. (Read below).

I mean sure, morally I get it, but I mean from a purely gameplay perspective.

Is there any in-game penalty for looking at a flawless passport and using the red stamp anyways?

They'll print out a citation saying "Protocol violated. Applicant clear for entry."

If not, what's to stop you from simply using the red stamp on everybody real quick like? (aside from boredom I suppose)

For first two mistakes made on a same day, you get warnings. "Warning issued - no penalty" and "Last warning - no penalty".

After that, you'll be given penalties. Third and fourth citations (i.e 1st and 2nd penalties) is 5 credits each, then they raise penalties in arithmetic progression (i.e. penalties on fifth and sixth is 10 credits, then it's two penalties 15 credits each etc).

At the end of each day, those amounts will be deducted from your salary - and, if needed, taken from your savings.

And being in debt is a crime in Arstotzka (official charge will be "debauchery"), so if you have negative money before going to sleep - even after moving to cheapest appartment and going without heat and food - it's a game over for you.

 

[Strain42]

SNIP

Makes sense. Alright, thanks. I appreciate it.

I still think I might go ahead and pick this game up.

 

[Grach]

Is there any in-game penalty for looking at a flawless passport and using the red stamp anyways?

Yes, they give you a citation if you send someone with legit papers back with rejected, but valid, papers. Obviously it comes from balance, so that you actually play the game and face its challenges.

 

[Simca]

I don't know if it was mentioned on a previous page, but did anyone else notice Yahtzee changed the audio?

It now says "I only suck off pantomine dames." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime_dame) instead of "pre-op transsexuals".