Zero Punctuation: Webcomics
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
i hate you. i used to like cad, then it got less funny but there were still some good ones. the miscarriage thing was really hard to ignore buti had to see if it would get better. and now that i saw the youtube of the animated series....i dont think i will ever look at cad the same way again.Melo The Yellow said:
The problem with webcomics is that the barrier for entry is pretty much nonexistent, so talentless hacks can post whatever the hell they want, no matter how crappy. This leads to some bad ideas making it past all sorts of filtering, which only leads to trouble.
Newspaper comics have editors that review them... although to be fair, a lot of crappy stuff gets onto the newspaper's comic page too... in a local paper here, there's one comic that manages to be worse, in both story AND art, than a good three-quarters of the webcomics on the net. It's called "Real Life Adventures" (not to be confused with the "Real Life" webcomic) and its art level would be inexcusable even if it was made by ONE person, but it's actually made by TWO people, and the artwork is still so unbelievably terrible that it makes me want to retch. Oh, and the jokes are pathetic. So yes, there's a lot of stuff that DOES make it past editors too.
As for webcomics, there are a few good ones out there. And, quite frankly, I think criticizing the bad ones is like shooting fish in a barrel (which is why I don't think of John Solomon as quite the comedic genius or "lone hero" he claims... after all, anyone can do what he can do), I think there needs to be more attention paid to the good ones.
A few recommendations:
xkcd [http://xkcd.com], obviously, especially my favorite comic in any medium of all time [http://xkcd.com/386/].
Venus Envy [http://venusenvy.comicgenesis.com/], a really touching story, semi-autobiographical but dealing with some real social issues.
Misfile [http://www.misfile.com/], a superbly drawn and written comic, absolutely hilarious.
Newspaper comics have editors that review them... although to be fair, a lot of crappy stuff gets onto the newspaper's comic page too... in a local paper here, there's one comic that manages to be worse, in both story AND art, than a good three-quarters of the webcomics on the net. It's called "Real Life Adventures" (not to be confused with the "Real Life" webcomic) and its art level would be inexcusable even if it was made by ONE person, but it's actually made by TWO people, and the artwork is still so unbelievably terrible that it makes me want to retch. Oh, and the jokes are pathetic. So yes, there's a lot of stuff that DOES make it past editors too.
As for webcomics, there are a few good ones out there. And, quite frankly, I think criticizing the bad ones is like shooting fish in a barrel (which is why I don't think of John Solomon as quite the comedic genius or "lone hero" he claims... after all, anyone can do what he can do), I think there needs to be more attention paid to the good ones.
A few recommendations:
xkcd [http://xkcd.com], obviously, especially my favorite comic in any medium of all time [http://xkcd.com/386/].
Venus Envy [http://venusenvy.comicgenesis.com/], a really touching story, semi-autobiographical but dealing with some real social issues.
Misfile [http://www.misfile.com/], a superbly drawn and written comic, absolutely hilarious.
That's not a joke. That's 3 panels of black, and a final panel trying to explain why the first three were funny. Oh, to be seven again...RaiDK said:
So if someone shouted out to thousands of people in a public place that you were a pedophile and many others piped up also saying you were, you'd smile and walk away? I'm sure anyone in that situation would be issuing some swift kicks to the nuts.Soviet Joe said:When I first heard of Yahtzee's disdain of CAD, I was kind of surprised. I wasn't born yesterday, I know he's making a living from being a cynical, critical asshat, which I love him for. But this seemed a little more than a dig at a bad game, it was almost personal in a way. Regardless, I read his argument, looked at the examples, and agreed. Not because I'm a rampant fanboy, but because I just don't find CAD funny. It's like the kid at school who tries so hard to be the class clown so everyone loves him for being so witty and funny, but everyone sees straight through him.
I decided to read a few comics, regardless. All I got was "OOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO MISCARRIAGE" then "BANG, BACK TO UNFUNNY GAME JOEKS TEIM!DD". I thought I got it all wrong, so I read the news post. And my god, what a truck load of self-absorbed bull. He ran the miscarriage line so it didn't turn into a "parent-kiddy comic", or words to that effect. Then why brew a story line to just abort it? I mean, you know, you COULD just not have got the lead female character pregnant in the first time and let all the poor misguided readers, a lot of which I bet couldn't even begin to understand the tragedy of the event, have the 5 hours or so of their life. Then he thanks readers for their support?! What, for a poorly thought out story line? Sure, if this was relative to his life, but I'm sure he pointed out it didn't.
And then, of course, there's Buckley's dictatorly stance on censorship, of which I'm sure even ol' Bob Mugabe would be proud of. Even if he didn't do it, wiping all posts of any alleged flashing a minor incident is NOT the way to go about clearing your name. If anything, it makes it sound like he has something to hide. Criticism? Oh no. Yahtzee has his critics, however, he doesn't try and smite them with any banhammer. He just mercilessly takes the piss out of them. Criticism is to be expected in ANY art form, I should know being a musician. If he can't handle that, maybe he should consider a career change. Or even a frontal lobotomy. And all the closing of the topic slating the video sounds like to me is not Buckley "trying to be mature" or the bigger man, just that he can't think of a pseudo-humorous comment to make back. However, I have no doubt he'll pipe up somewhere in 7 to 8 months time.
While watching this the only thing I found funny was that it reminded me of this:
http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comic/2008/02/11/the-control-alt-delete-theorem/
I personally like CAD which is probably because I like a continueing story line rather then single panel gags for 10 years. Now I know that a lot of people have critisism on Tim and CAD but mostly this is stupid ranting which I didn't expect from Yahtzee.
Though he doesn't mention it by name it's obvious that most of this is aimed at CAD but the only points that are really good points are the ones that are aimed at gaming webcomics in general. And even those do not all apply.
Let's give it a rundown shall we.
move in with someone who can draw.
well Tim does his own drawing and I can't draw better then he does so I don't think it applies.
Stereo typical characters found in all gaming webcomics
Sure Ethan is probably inspired on his self image so minus point for tim there. Lucas is the straight man and Lila is the girl / love interst.
Minus one point for Tim Berkley
make it funny
this is rather subjective so I won't get into this one
to stand out add drama by having the female have a miscarriage...
Sorry to bring this but CAD is one of the most popular webcomics even with all it's flaws that the haters have pointed out several times in this thread. So Tim hardly needed the miscarriage for that.
Afterwards Yahtzee goes on about the artists reactions when people critizise them.
"I don't see you do any better" is actually funny since Yahtzees own comics are hardly as popular as CAD, however it's not really something I would use if I were the artist.
"I can do whatever I want with my webcomic" is a good argument if Yahtzee thinks that just because the fanbase wants something the comic artist has to cater to their wishes he might as well start reviewing mario kart now (let's hope not though)
"You're just jealous I get more readers" Against many webcomics that bash CAD this is probably true.
And what with the not admitting defeat no matter if you're a douche? I heard rumours some which maybe be while others are not. But in the end I think the creator's personality has little to do with the quality of the comic itself.
Last he mentions mocking people in your comic because they critisize you, this is probably a refference to comics in general since I can't remember the last time Tim did that, if ever. On fact he's usually the one being mocked in webcomics.
And after this is all over I really wonder why Yahtzee bothered with all of this, I don't think CAD will suddenly see a rapid decline in views per day, if anything it will go up, and had he not made this or at least tried to cover his disgust with CAD a little better he could have walked away as the better man. Now it feels like he's just desperate because his written CAD critisism, as valid as his points may have been, didn't do anything.
http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comic/2008/02/11/the-control-alt-delete-theorem/
I personally like CAD which is probably because I like a continueing story line rather then single panel gags for 10 years. Now I know that a lot of people have critisism on Tim and CAD but mostly this is stupid ranting which I didn't expect from Yahtzee.
Though he doesn't mention it by name it's obvious that most of this is aimed at CAD but the only points that are really good points are the ones that are aimed at gaming webcomics in general. And even those do not all apply.
Let's give it a rundown shall we.
move in with someone who can draw.
well Tim does his own drawing and I can't draw better then he does so I don't think it applies.
Stereo typical characters found in all gaming webcomics
Sure Ethan is probably inspired on his self image so minus point for tim there. Lucas is the straight man and Lila is the girl / love interst.
Minus one point for Tim Berkley
make it funny
this is rather subjective so I won't get into this one
to stand out add drama by having the female have a miscarriage...
Sorry to bring this but CAD is one of the most popular webcomics even with all it's flaws that the haters have pointed out several times in this thread. So Tim hardly needed the miscarriage for that.
Afterwards Yahtzee goes on about the artists reactions when people critizise them.
"I don't see you do any better" is actually funny since Yahtzees own comics are hardly as popular as CAD, however it's not really something I would use if I were the artist.
"I can do whatever I want with my webcomic" is a good argument if Yahtzee thinks that just because the fanbase wants something the comic artist has to cater to their wishes he might as well start reviewing mario kart now (let's hope not though)
"You're just jealous I get more readers" Against many webcomics that bash CAD this is probably true.
And what with the not admitting defeat no matter if you're a douche? I heard rumours some which maybe be while others are not. But in the end I think the creator's personality has little to do with the quality of the comic itself.
Last he mentions mocking people in your comic because they critisize you, this is probably a refference to comics in general since I can't remember the last time Tim did that, if ever. On fact he's usually the one being mocked in webcomics.
And after this is all over I really wonder why Yahtzee bothered with all of this, I don't think CAD will suddenly see a rapid decline in views per day, if anything it will go up, and had he not made this or at least tried to cover his disgust with CAD a little better he could have walked away as the better man. Now it feels like he's just desperate because his written CAD critisism, as valid as his points may have been, didn't do anything.
No, but it is strange to not only ban that person, but to also ban anybody who even talked with people who read that thread. One act is getting rid of somebody who clearly stepped over the line, the other screams 'Dear god I hope nobody else finds out'.Skrapt said:
No, and stop trying that tactic with me. I never said "He shouldn't have banned anyone who posted on the matter", I said "He shouldn't have banned everyone who posted on the matter". There's a not-so-subtle difference there.
Obviously, he should have banned those who made the accusations and those who agreed with them.
No, I'd debunk their argument and show them up to be the absolute cretin they were. That is, of course, assuming I didn't do it. We don't know if he did or didn't.Skrapt said:
Regardless, my point wasn't about what I'd do or you'd do, or even if he did or not. My point was that you don't go around defending yourself by wiping out every shred of accusation/evidence and expect everyone will believe your word whole-heartedly without even a word of explanation. It looks fishier than a cat's dinner.
It occurred to me that my (several pages ago) earlier comment focused on my agreement that CAD is dying and my confusion at Yahtzee's hypocricy, but I neglected to say what I actually thought about the video itself.
I think Yahtzee is right on the money. I liked Penny Arcade and XKCD so much that I went in search of good webcomics. I ran into a couple of gems, like Looking For Group, but the vast majority of them were horrible. Most focused on humor but failed to be funny. Almost all were horribly drawn, even by elementary school standards. Few seemed to have any semblance of character, theme, or scene. They were just hastily drawn images attempting to get cheap laughs with crude language.
Unfortunately, I sometimes wonder if Zero Punctuation isn't heading in that same direction. Yahtzee's it-was-horrible-in-no-uncertain-terms approach can be down-right hilarious, but only when coupled with accurate, meaningful reviewing. It can be great fun to point at something's faults, but it loses its humor when the jokes stop focusing on true faults and start revolving around stringing together condescending ad hominum attacks.
Yahtzee, you're 100% correct that most webcomics suck because they hastily try to gain laughs without actually being funny. Just be careful not to head that direction yourself.
With that said, I can't wait to see more game reviews about both good and bad games. And I only hope they are accompanied by well-spoken, cutting humor about the truly bad parts of either. Reviews like The Orange Box, Army of Two, and Zack and Wiki made me a fan of ZP instantly. I only you can keep it insightful and interesting instead of going for cheap laughs.
I think Yahtzee is right on the money. I liked Penny Arcade and XKCD so much that I went in search of good webcomics. I ran into a couple of gems, like Looking For Group, but the vast majority of them were horrible. Most focused on humor but failed to be funny. Almost all were horribly drawn, even by elementary school standards. Few seemed to have any semblance of character, theme, or scene. They were just hastily drawn images attempting to get cheap laughs with crude language.
Unfortunately, I sometimes wonder if Zero Punctuation isn't heading in that same direction. Yahtzee's it-was-horrible-in-no-uncertain-terms approach can be down-right hilarious, but only when coupled with accurate, meaningful reviewing. It can be great fun to point at something's faults, but it loses its humor when the jokes stop focusing on true faults and start revolving around stringing together condescending ad hominum attacks.
Yahtzee, you're 100% correct that most webcomics suck because they hastily try to gain laughs without actually being funny. Just be careful not to head that direction yourself.
With that said, I can't wait to see more game reviews about both good and bad games. And I only hope they are accompanied by well-spoken, cutting humor about the truly bad parts of either. Reviews like The Orange Box, Army of Two, and Zack and Wiki made me a fan of ZP instantly. I only you can keep it insightful and interesting instead of going for cheap laughs.
You know, I had only passingly heard of CAD, and am usually a fan of Yahtzee's stuff.
But this video today struck me as being very immature and petty, creating a review of webcomics almost solely to take digs at some guy who he has a personal vendetta with, for no reason that I can see.
Now how is that worse than creating a storyline about a miscarriage to create drama?
Though, I don't really expect any better from Yahtzee any more.
:/
But this video today struck me as being very immature and petty, creating a review of webcomics almost solely to take digs at some guy who he has a personal vendetta with, for no reason that I can see.
Now how is that worse than creating a storyline about a miscarriage to create drama?
Though, I don't really expect any better from Yahtzee any more.
:/
No I suppose it's not, but argueing on who is better just leads to a discussion about taste which I rather avoid. Or do you have some handy indicator to tell how good / bad a webcomic is? Please enlighten me if you do.Evilducks said:
EDIT:
Perhaps I should state that I do agree most gaming webcomics are total crap, I just don't think that Yahtzee needs to single out CAD even though he tries to hide it.
I'm starting to agree with what was said earlier... I think Yahtzee has Jumped the Shark.
First Escapist episode I ever saw was the Medal of Honour one. That rocked.
I've seen them all now, and my enjoyment bounces up and down, but it does seem that they are going down overall.
If I were to try and define how to create a Zero Punctuation episode I liked, I'd probably start by pointing out it doesn't work that way, but if pressed I suppose I'd be left with a tick-box list something like this;
#1: It should be a review, not a *****.
#2: It should NOT be about whatever the latest piece of fad-crap is. So far, I've watched two vids of games I own, and both I've realised are, in fact, a load of bullshit spun out to be funny. That IS funny when you don't own the game, but the problem now is that Yahtzee is increasingly giving the impression he actually knows sod-all about what he's talking about, and covers it up by talking quickly, making jokes and hurling shit.
I think Yahtzee needs to pull it back, otherwise pretty soon the only reason his ratings will be climbing is because we'll be wanting to see him jump around the cage and hurl faeces.
First Escapist episode I ever saw was the Medal of Honour one. That rocked.
I've seen them all now, and my enjoyment bounces up and down, but it does seem that they are going down overall.
If I were to try and define how to create a Zero Punctuation episode I liked, I'd probably start by pointing out it doesn't work that way, but if pressed I suppose I'd be left with a tick-box list something like this;
#1: It should be a review, not a *****.
#2: It should NOT be about whatever the latest piece of fad-crap is. So far, I've watched two vids of games I own, and both I've realised are, in fact, a load of bullshit spun out to be funny. That IS funny when you don't own the game, but the problem now is that Yahtzee is increasingly giving the impression he actually knows sod-all about what he's talking about, and covers it up by talking quickly, making jokes and hurling shit.
I think Yahtzee needs to pull it back, otherwise pretty soon the only reason his ratings will be climbing is because we'll be wanting to see him jump around the cage and hurl faeces.
I've seen reports that he deleted any trace of the accusations, and banning anyone involved, even those who supported him. That seems less like a defense and more like a cover-up. If I ran a forum I would most definitely delete the accusations, give those involved a swift verbal lashing and probably ban them, but I'd be thankful that some people had enough sense to see through the bullcrap.Skrapt said:So if someone shouted out to thousands of people in a public place that you were a pedophile and many others piped up also saying you were, you'd smile and walk away? I'm sure anyone in that situation would be issuing some swift kicks to the nuts.Soviet Joe said:When I first heard of Yahtzee's disdain of CAD, I was kind of surprised. I wasn't born yesterday, I know he's making a living from being a cynical, critical asshat, which I love him for. But this seemed a little more than a dig at a bad game, it was almost personal in a way. Regardless, I read his argument, looked at the examples, and agreed. Not because I'm a rampant fanboy, but because I just don't find CAD funny. It's like the kid at school who tries so hard to be the class clown so everyone loves him for being so witty and funny, but everyone sees straight through him.
I decided to read a few comics, regardless. All I got was "OOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO MISCARRIAGE" then "BANG, BACK TO UNFUNNY GAME JOEKS TEIM!
And then, of course, there's Buckley's dictatorly stance on censorship, of which I'm sure even ol' Bob Mugabe would be proud of. Even if he didn't do it, wiping all posts of any alleged flashing a minor incident is NOT the way to go about clearing your name. If anything, it makes it sound like he has something to hide. Criticism? Oh no. Yahtzee has his critics, however, he doesn't try and smite them with any banhammer. He just mercilessly takes the piss out of them. Criticism is to be expected in ANY art form, I should know being a musician. If he can't handle that, maybe he should consider a career change. Or even a frontal lobotomy. And all the closing of the topic slating the video sounds like to me is not Buckley "trying to be mature" or the bigger man, just that he can't think of a pseudo-humorous comment to make back. However, I have no doubt he'll pipe up somewhere in 7 to 8 months time.
Wow... well not exactly what I expected; guess we're running low on material until Fallout 3 hits us?
I've only ever read 1 internet comic series, GUcomics back when it was Everquest centered... I've never read any other series.
I enjoyed this episode, I thought it was amusing and had some good bashes in, however, I was surprised and somewhat disappointed in that there was no game review. Oh well.
I enjoyed this episode, I thought it was amusing and had some good bashes in, however, I was surprised and somewhat disappointed in that there was no game review. Oh well.