Zero Punctuation: Webcomics
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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While watching this the only thing I found funny was that it reminded me of this:
http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comic/2008/02/11/the-control-alt-delete-theorem/
I personally like CAD which is probably because I like a continueing story line rather then single panel gags for 10 years. Now I know that a lot of people have critisism on Tim and CAD but mostly this is stupid ranting which I didn't expect from Yahtzee.
Though he doesn't mention it by name it's obvious that most of this is aimed at CAD but the only points that are really good points are the ones that are aimed at gaming webcomics in general. And even those do not all apply.
Let's give it a rundown shall we.
move in with someone who can draw.
well Tim does his own drawing and I can't draw better then he does so I don't think it applies.
Stereo typical characters found in all gaming webcomics
Sure Ethan is probably inspired on his self image so minus point for tim there. Lucas is the straight man and Lila is the girl / love interst.
Minus one point for Tim Berkley
make it funny
this is rather subjective so I won't get into this one
to stand out add drama by having the female have a miscarriage...
Sorry to bring this but CAD is one of the most popular webcomics even with all it's flaws that the haters have pointed out several times in this thread. So Tim hardly needed the miscarriage for that.
Afterwards Yahtzee goes on about the artists reactions when people critizise them.
"I don't see you do any better" is actually funny since Yahtzees own comics are hardly as popular as CAD, however it's not really something I would use if I were the artist.
"I can do whatever I want with my webcomic" is a good argument if Yahtzee thinks that just because the fanbase wants something the comic artist has to cater to their wishes he might as well start reviewing mario kart now (let's hope not though)
"You're just jealous I get more readers" Against many webcomics that bash CAD this is probably true.
And what with the not admitting defeat no matter if you're a douche? I heard rumours some which maybe be while others are not. But in the end I think the creator's personality has little to do with the quality of the comic itself.
Last he mentions mocking people in your comic because they critisize you, this is probably a refference to comics in general since I can't remember the last time Tim did that, if ever. On fact he's usually the one being mocked in webcomics.
And after this is all over I really wonder why Yahtzee bothered with all of this, I don't think CAD will suddenly see a rapid decline in views per day, if anything it will go up, and had he not made this or at least tried to cover his disgust with CAD a little better he could have walked away as the better man. Now it feels like he's just desperate because his written CAD critisism, as valid as his points may have been, didn't do anything.
http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comic/2008/02/11/the-control-alt-delete-theorem/
I personally like CAD which is probably because I like a continueing story line rather then single panel gags for 10 years. Now I know that a lot of people have critisism on Tim and CAD but mostly this is stupid ranting which I didn't expect from Yahtzee.
Though he doesn't mention it by name it's obvious that most of this is aimed at CAD but the only points that are really good points are the ones that are aimed at gaming webcomics in general. And even those do not all apply.
Let's give it a rundown shall we.
move in with someone who can draw.
well Tim does his own drawing and I can't draw better then he does so I don't think it applies.
Stereo typical characters found in all gaming webcomics
Sure Ethan is probably inspired on his self image so minus point for tim there. Lucas is the straight man and Lila is the girl / love interst.
Minus one point for Tim Berkley
make it funny
this is rather subjective so I won't get into this one
to stand out add drama by having the female have a miscarriage...
Sorry to bring this but CAD is one of the most popular webcomics even with all it's flaws that the haters have pointed out several times in this thread. So Tim hardly needed the miscarriage for that.
Afterwards Yahtzee goes on about the artists reactions when people critizise them.
"I don't see you do any better" is actually funny since Yahtzees own comics are hardly as popular as CAD, however it's not really something I would use if I were the artist.
"I can do whatever I want with my webcomic" is a good argument if Yahtzee thinks that just because the fanbase wants something the comic artist has to cater to their wishes he might as well start reviewing mario kart now (let's hope not though)
"You're just jealous I get more readers" Against many webcomics that bash CAD this is probably true.
And what with the not admitting defeat no matter if you're a douche? I heard rumours some which maybe be while others are not. But in the end I think the creator's personality has little to do with the quality of the comic itself.
Last he mentions mocking people in your comic because they critisize you, this is probably a refference to comics in general since I can't remember the last time Tim did that, if ever. On fact he's usually the one being mocked in webcomics.
And after this is all over I really wonder why Yahtzee bothered with all of this, I don't think CAD will suddenly see a rapid decline in views per day, if anything it will go up, and had he not made this or at least tried to cover his disgust with CAD a little better he could have walked away as the better man. Now it feels like he's just desperate because his written CAD critisism, as valid as his points may have been, didn't do anything.
No, but it is strange to not only ban that person, but to also ban anybody who even talked with people who read that thread. One act is getting rid of somebody who clearly stepped over the line, the other screams 'Dear god I hope nobody else finds out'.Skrapt said:
No, and stop trying that tactic with me. I never said "He shouldn't have banned anyone who posted on the matter", I said "He shouldn't have banned everyone who posted on the matter". There's a not-so-subtle difference there.
Obviously, he should have banned those who made the accusations and those who agreed with them.
No, I'd debunk their argument and show them up to be the absolute cretin they were. That is, of course, assuming I didn't do it. We don't know if he did or didn't.Skrapt said:
Regardless, my point wasn't about what I'd do or you'd do, or even if he did or not. My point was that you don't go around defending yourself by wiping out every shred of accusation/evidence and expect everyone will believe your word whole-heartedly without even a word of explanation. It looks fishier than a cat's dinner.
It occurred to me that my (several pages ago) earlier comment focused on my agreement that CAD is dying and my confusion at Yahtzee's hypocricy, but I neglected to say what I actually thought about the video itself.
I think Yahtzee is right on the money. I liked Penny Arcade and XKCD so much that I went in search of good webcomics. I ran into a couple of gems, like Looking For Group, but the vast majority of them were horrible. Most focused on humor but failed to be funny. Almost all were horribly drawn, even by elementary school standards. Few seemed to have any semblance of character, theme, or scene. They were just hastily drawn images attempting to get cheap laughs with crude language.
Unfortunately, I sometimes wonder if Zero Punctuation isn't heading in that same direction. Yahtzee's it-was-horrible-in-no-uncertain-terms approach can be down-right hilarious, but only when coupled with accurate, meaningful reviewing. It can be great fun to point at something's faults, but it loses its humor when the jokes stop focusing on true faults and start revolving around stringing together condescending ad hominum attacks.
Yahtzee, you're 100% correct that most webcomics suck because they hastily try to gain laughs without actually being funny. Just be careful not to head that direction yourself.
With that said, I can't wait to see more game reviews about both good and bad games. And I only hope they are accompanied by well-spoken, cutting humor about the truly bad parts of either. Reviews like The Orange Box, Army of Two, and Zack and Wiki made me a fan of ZP instantly. I only you can keep it insightful and interesting instead of going for cheap laughs.
I think Yahtzee is right on the money. I liked Penny Arcade and XKCD so much that I went in search of good webcomics. I ran into a couple of gems, like Looking For Group, but the vast majority of them were horrible. Most focused on humor but failed to be funny. Almost all were horribly drawn, even by elementary school standards. Few seemed to have any semblance of character, theme, or scene. They were just hastily drawn images attempting to get cheap laughs with crude language.
Unfortunately, I sometimes wonder if Zero Punctuation isn't heading in that same direction. Yahtzee's it-was-horrible-in-no-uncertain-terms approach can be down-right hilarious, but only when coupled with accurate, meaningful reviewing. It can be great fun to point at something's faults, but it loses its humor when the jokes stop focusing on true faults and start revolving around stringing together condescending ad hominum attacks.
Yahtzee, you're 100% correct that most webcomics suck because they hastily try to gain laughs without actually being funny. Just be careful not to head that direction yourself.
With that said, I can't wait to see more game reviews about both good and bad games. And I only hope they are accompanied by well-spoken, cutting humor about the truly bad parts of either. Reviews like The Orange Box, Army of Two, and Zack and Wiki made me a fan of ZP instantly. I only you can keep it insightful and interesting instead of going for cheap laughs.
You know, I had only passingly heard of CAD, and am usually a fan of Yahtzee's stuff.
But this video today struck me as being very immature and petty, creating a review of webcomics almost solely to take digs at some guy who he has a personal vendetta with, for no reason that I can see.
Now how is that worse than creating a storyline about a miscarriage to create drama?
Though, I don't really expect any better from Yahtzee any more.
:/
But this video today struck me as being very immature and petty, creating a review of webcomics almost solely to take digs at some guy who he has a personal vendetta with, for no reason that I can see.
Now how is that worse than creating a storyline about a miscarriage to create drama?
Though, I don't really expect any better from Yahtzee any more.
:/
No I suppose it's not, but argueing on who is better just leads to a discussion about taste which I rather avoid. Or do you have some handy indicator to tell how good / bad a webcomic is? Please enlighten me if you do.Evilducks said:
EDIT:
Perhaps I should state that I do agree most gaming webcomics are total crap, I just don't think that Yahtzee needs to single out CAD even though he tries to hide it.
I'm starting to agree with what was said earlier... I think Yahtzee has Jumped the Shark.
First Escapist episode I ever saw was the Medal of Honour one. That rocked.
I've seen them all now, and my enjoyment bounces up and down, but it does seem that they are going down overall.
If I were to try and define how to create a Zero Punctuation episode I liked, I'd probably start by pointing out it doesn't work that way, but if pressed I suppose I'd be left with a tick-box list something like this;
#1: It should be a review, not a *****.
#2: It should NOT be about whatever the latest piece of fad-crap is. So far, I've watched two vids of games I own, and both I've realised are, in fact, a load of bullshit spun out to be funny. That IS funny when you don't own the game, but the problem now is that Yahtzee is increasingly giving the impression he actually knows sod-all about what he's talking about, and covers it up by talking quickly, making jokes and hurling shit.
I think Yahtzee needs to pull it back, otherwise pretty soon the only reason his ratings will be climbing is because we'll be wanting to see him jump around the cage and hurl faeces.
First Escapist episode I ever saw was the Medal of Honour one. That rocked.
I've seen them all now, and my enjoyment bounces up and down, but it does seem that they are going down overall.
If I were to try and define how to create a Zero Punctuation episode I liked, I'd probably start by pointing out it doesn't work that way, but if pressed I suppose I'd be left with a tick-box list something like this;
#1: It should be a review, not a *****.
#2: It should NOT be about whatever the latest piece of fad-crap is. So far, I've watched two vids of games I own, and both I've realised are, in fact, a load of bullshit spun out to be funny. That IS funny when you don't own the game, but the problem now is that Yahtzee is increasingly giving the impression he actually knows sod-all about what he's talking about, and covers it up by talking quickly, making jokes and hurling shit.
I think Yahtzee needs to pull it back, otherwise pretty soon the only reason his ratings will be climbing is because we'll be wanting to see him jump around the cage and hurl faeces.
I've seen reports that he deleted any trace of the accusations, and banning anyone involved, even those who supported him. That seems less like a defense and more like a cover-up. If I ran a forum I would most definitely delete the accusations, give those involved a swift verbal lashing and probably ban them, but I'd be thankful that some people had enough sense to see through the bullcrap.Skrapt said:So if someone shouted out to thousands of people in a public place that you were a pedophile and many others piped up also saying you were, you'd smile and walk away? I'm sure anyone in that situation would be issuing some swift kicks to the nuts.Soviet Joe said:When I first heard of Yahtzee's disdain of CAD, I was kind of surprised. I wasn't born yesterday, I know he's making a living from being a cynical, critical asshat, which I love him for. But this seemed a little more than a dig at a bad game, it was almost personal in a way. Regardless, I read his argument, looked at the examples, and agreed. Not because I'm a rampant fanboy, but because I just don't find CAD funny. It's like the kid at school who tries so hard to be the class clown so everyone loves him for being so witty and funny, but everyone sees straight through him.
I decided to read a few comics, regardless. All I got was "OOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO MISCARRIAGE" then "BANG, BACK TO UNFUNNY GAME JOEKS TEIM!DD". I thought I got it all wrong, so I read the news post. And my god, what a truck load of self-absorbed bull. He ran the miscarriage line so it didn't turn into a "parent-kiddy comic", or words to that effect. Then why brew a story line to just abort it? I mean, you know, you COULD just not have got the lead female character pregnant in the first time and let all the poor misguided readers, a lot of which I bet couldn't even begin to understand the tragedy of the event, have the 5 hours or so of their life. Then he thanks readers for their support?! What, for a poorly thought out story line? Sure, if this was relative to his life, but I'm sure he pointed out it didn't.
And then, of course, there's Buckley's dictatorly stance on censorship, of which I'm sure even ol' Bob Mugabe would be proud of. Even if he didn't do it, wiping all posts of any alleged flashing a minor incident is NOT the way to go about clearing your name. If anything, it makes it sound like he has something to hide. Criticism? Oh no. Yahtzee has his critics, however, he doesn't try and smite them with any banhammer. He just mercilessly takes the piss out of them. Criticism is to be expected in ANY art form, I should know being a musician. If he can't handle that, maybe he should consider a career change. Or even a frontal lobotomy. And all the closing of the topic slating the video sounds like to me is not Buckley "trying to be mature" or the bigger man, just that he can't think of a pseudo-humorous comment to make back. However, I have no doubt he'll pipe up somewhere in 7 to 8 months time.
Wow... well not exactly what I expected; guess we're running low on material until Fallout 3 hits us?
I've only ever read 1 internet comic series, GUcomics back when it was Everquest centered... I've never read any other series.
I enjoyed this episode, I thought it was amusing and had some good bashes in, however, I was surprised and somewhat disappointed in that there was no game review. Oh well.
I enjoyed this episode, I thought it was amusing and had some good bashes in, however, I was surprised and somewhat disappointed in that there was no game review. Oh well.
I find that I don't rely on Zero Punctuation to be funny for me to enjoy it. I find that Yahtzee has similar gaming views to mine and probably many other people (the only time i've ever really disagreed with a yahtzee review was for mass effect). The fact that his videos are hilarious sets him above other standard video reviews. I think Yahtzee believed that since he is finally in a position of influence in society, that he should bring it to people's attention that CAD is boring and uninspired and doesn't deserve the following or respect it gets.
If you read the two comics about Puzzle Quest, one from PA and the other from CAD, I don't believe you can say the CAD one was better with a straight face.
If you read the two comics about Puzzle Quest, one from PA and the other from CAD, I don't believe you can say the CAD one was better with a straight face.
Previously (in which ZP I forget) Yahtzee states that web comics forget that too many fucking words ruin the whole feel of webcomics (I think it was one of the J-game masterpeices). And in saying this Yahtzee is right, many webcomics I 'read' leave me sleeping softly on the sofa, because my brain has decided that there are better things for it to do, like cure cancer and has left my corpse to rot.
Anyhow what I'm trying to say is this is a great follow up to that statement. It is a good break from general game beating (not that i'll ever get bored of that). mailbag review (response?) was an other example of this and its was fucking awesome too.
So, like some smelly orphan: may I have some more please?
Anyhow what I'm trying to say is this is a great follow up to that statement. It is a good break from general game beating (not that i'll ever get bored of that). mailbag review (response?) was an other example of this and its was fucking awesome too.
So, like some smelly orphan: may I have some more please?
I have just read some of the TEN PAGES of CAD bashing and CAD supporting and the combination of the two polar opposites in such close proximity have left me slightly dizzy. I have seen excellent arguments from both sides and it is interesting to see such a variety of well crafted arguments as ?Tim is a douche? and ?Yahtzee is a douche? but I feel as though both sides have long ago played their hands and IT?S TIME TO MOVE ON!!! If you have something interesting, witty or shocking to say please follow these directions
1) Write it on some program that has a spell check (such as Microsoft Word) and copy and paste so we don?t have to reed you?er misspealings
2) Read the thousand or so posts that have gone up to see if what you?re about to say has
already been posted, noted and discussed
3) Realize that what you were planning to say has already been mentioned ten or two hundred times
4) Throw away whatever you were going to say about CAD and write a beautifully crafted essay about Yahtzee, Zero Punctuation, internet freedoms and the malleability of internet supporters everywhere
5) Calmly and peacefully comment on other peoples discussions while trying to save obscenities only for situations that desperately require them
For the anti-CAD - Tim Buckley is an artist and thrives off of any publicity, positive or negative. If you want to bring him down IGNORE HIM, don?t spend your hours sending him scathing emails or posting long drawn out statements calling him ?Fuckley? or writing strips for CADbortion, just don?t do anything. CAD?s amount of viewers dropped by around 60% since January and he has likely crippled himself permanently. And Whatever you do DON?T post one line statements saying ?CAD is for faggots? or the like, those statements merely validate the arguments of the pro-CAD that all anti-CAD are slack jawed morons incapable of expressing any complex emotion or statement without falling back on disgusting homophobia and a gross misunderstanding of human rights
For the pro-CAD ? Tim Buckley is a big boy; he doesn?t need you to fight his battles for him. As he has already stated about the infamous abortion comic (in full here http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/news.php?i=1636 he ?wanted to see if he could write it. If he could pull it off?. Tim expected this kind of response and considered all of his options and decided to go through with it, whether you agree with his decision or not, that took balls and you don?t need to defend his actions.
On a side note, has anyone else noticed a rather disturbing trend of self-referential irony and self-defeatism in Yahtzee?s videos? I am concerned because I thought that Yahtzee was strong enough to not need that crutch but after recent videos, well, I guess I?m having my doubts.
1) Write it on some program that has a spell check (such as Microsoft Word) and copy and paste so we don?t have to reed you?er misspealings
2) Read the thousand or so posts that have gone up to see if what you?re about to say has
already been posted, noted and discussed
3) Realize that what you were planning to say has already been mentioned ten or two hundred times
4) Throw away whatever you were going to say about CAD and write a beautifully crafted essay about Yahtzee, Zero Punctuation, internet freedoms and the malleability of internet supporters everywhere
5) Calmly and peacefully comment on other peoples discussions while trying to save obscenities only for situations that desperately require them
For the anti-CAD - Tim Buckley is an artist and thrives off of any publicity, positive or negative. If you want to bring him down IGNORE HIM, don?t spend your hours sending him scathing emails or posting long drawn out statements calling him ?Fuckley? or writing strips for CADbortion, just don?t do anything. CAD?s amount of viewers dropped by around 60% since January and he has likely crippled himself permanently. And Whatever you do DON?T post one line statements saying ?CAD is for faggots? or the like, those statements merely validate the arguments of the pro-CAD that all anti-CAD are slack jawed morons incapable of expressing any complex emotion or statement without falling back on disgusting homophobia and a gross misunderstanding of human rights
For the pro-CAD ? Tim Buckley is a big boy; he doesn?t need you to fight his battles for him. As he has already stated about the infamous abortion comic (in full here http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/news.php?i=1636 he ?wanted to see if he could write it. If he could pull it off?. Tim expected this kind of response and considered all of his options and decided to go through with it, whether you agree with his decision or not, that took balls and you don?t need to defend his actions.
On a side note, has anyone else noticed a rather disturbing trend of self-referential irony and self-defeatism in Yahtzee?s videos? I am concerned because I thought that Yahtzee was strong enough to not need that crutch but after recent videos, well, I guess I?m having my doubts.