The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Gordon_4]

Spoiler

I agree with the consensus that the Flag Smashers are a weak link, I think the show needed to be an even ten episodes to flesh it out properly but the important things have been established: Captain America, Bucky Barnes, US Agent and the Power Broker. These are the parts I cared about, and Wyatt Russell especially I feel was the MVP as John Walker. This guy would have been so easy to turn into an stupid, flat and pointless hate sink but he's honestly very well rounded and likeable. Like he's not a good Captain America, but that's not to say he's a bad man. Also hats off to Carl Lumbly as Isaiah Bradley; and that reveal at the Captain America museum was perfect.

Long and short of it, I liked it. Could have been longer. I rate the whole thing a solid 8/10. Can't wait for some movies.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Was a good ep, with the best action scenes so far. Still never quite reaches the heights of the movies or Daredevil, but great to watch. The season was just way too short, but I'll take what we can get during these crazy times. Perhaps the biggest question that these Disney+ shows raise is that should these have just been movies? After WandaVision and FAWS, I'd have to say no. WandaVision just would not have worked on any level as a movie, and FAWS benefits from the longer runtime to truly flesh out their characters. Bucky's road to redemption and Sam's rise to being Captain America would not have been convincing at all in a two hour, one sitting movie. I look forward to seeing what Loki will do.

Some specific spoilers:

Spoiler

Bad stuff first. The Flag Smashers, and specifically Karli, are straight up garbage. The most interesting thing they ever did was when that one Cap fan got killed by John Walker. Seeing Karli (and any of them really) go toe to toe with John Walker is just stupid. I guess it was implied they had some training with the Power Broker, but eh. Walker should have absolutely decked her. When Sharon, Batroc, and Karli were having their Mexican standoff, all I could think was "Wow, the three shittiest characters in this show, what a coincidence!". It was great seeing them blown up by Zemo's butler.

Sharon's reveal was pretty obvious, and her whole character was incredibly underwhelming. I never liked her when she was a good guy, and she's only mildly more interesting as a bad guy. I suspect she was another victim of cut content, because her character is absolutely nothing.

Isaiah Bradley's scenes were great, very heartwarming. I was expecting some hints about his grandson, but I guess it's still too early for that.

Sam's new costume, I'll have to get used to. Chris Evan's costumes after Winter Soldier were just amazing, right up there with the original Iron Man armor. So to see Sam in a somewhat bulky and ill fitting costume... I don't know. What he does with his suit though is great, the way he uses his wings so creatively makes you believe he could go toe to toe with an Avengers level threat. His speech at the end... A little awkward and obvious. But it got the point across, and Mackie is charismatic as hell, so I don't really mind.

I found it funny that they still refer to Bucky as the Winter Soldier. Surely they could have just called him Bucky. The scene with Mr Nakajima wasn't as heart rending as I thought it would be, but that's fine.

John Walker was a standout for me. I'm so glad he wasn't killed off or just turned into a villain. I think "goody two shoes soldier who will bash your chest in" is a fun concept. I don't understand what they plan to do with the Louis-Dreyfus character, she doesn't seem to be evil.

 

[Gordon_4]

Was a good ep, with the best action scenes so far. Still never quite reaches the heights of the movies or Daredevil, but great to watch. The season was just way too short, but I'll take what we can get during these crazy times. Perhaps the biggest question that these Disney+ shows raise is that should these have just been movies? After WandaVision and FAWS, I'd have to say no. WandaVision just would not have worked on any level as a movie, and FAWS benefits from the longer runtime to truly flesh out their characters. Bucky's road to redemption and Sam's rise to being Captain America would not have been convincing at all in a two hour, one sitting movie. I look forward to seeing what Loki will do.

Some specific spoilers:

Spoiler

Bad stuff first. The Flag Smashers, and specifically Karli, are straight up garbage. The most interesting thing they ever did was when that one Cap fan got killed by John Walker. Seeing Karli (and any of them really) go toe to toe with John Walker is just stupid. I guess it was implied they had some training with the Power Broker, but eh. Walker should have absolutely decked her. When Sharon, Batroc, and Karli were having their Mexican standoff, all I could think was "Wow, the three shittiest characters in this show, what a coincidence!". It was great seeing them blown up by Zemo's butler.

Sharon's reveal was pretty obvious, and her whole character was incredibly underwhelming. I never liked her when she was a good guy, and she's only mildly more interesting as a bad guy. I suspect she was another victim of cut content, because her character is absolutely nothing.

Isaiah Bradley's scenes were great, very heartwarming. I was expecting some hints about his grandson, but I guess it's still too early for that.

Sam's new costume, I'll have to get used to. Chris Evan's costumes after Winter Soldier were just amazing, right up there with the original Iron Man armor. So to see Sam in a somewhat bulky and ill fitting costume... I don't know. What he does with his suit though is great, the way he uses his wings so creatively makes you believe he could go toe to toe with an Avengers level threat. His speech at the end... A little awkward and obvious. But it got the point across, and Mackie is charismatic as hell, so I don't really mind.

I found it funny that they still refer to Bucky as the Winter Soldier. Surely they could have just called him Bucky. The scene with Mr Nakajima wasn't as heart rending as I thought it would be, but that's fine.

John Walker was a standout for me. I'm so glad he wasn't killed off or just turned into a villain. I think "goody two shoes soldier who will bash your chest in" is a fun concept. I don't understand what they plan to do with the Louis-Dreyfus character, she doesn't seem to be evil.

Spoiler

She's a character who has gone by the moniker 'Madame Hydra'. I think its a safe bet she's gonna be playing John like a puppet for a while

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Spoiler

She's a character who has gone by the moniker 'Madame Hydra'. I think its a safe bet she's gonna be playing John like a puppet for a while

Spoiler

I mean, they made the Skrulls good guys. And reading her Marvel wikia entry, she sounds like a bit of an anti-hero. The way she named Walker as the US Agent sounded like she was connected to the government in some way.

 

[SilentPony]

Okay so good episode, good action, plot was a little weak

Spoiler

Lets start with the stupid, Sharon is the Power Broker. Someone on Marvel's character continuity team really fucked up. Last we saw her she was making out with Captain America having helped him and Sam and Bucky. We know she gets snapped, so as far as she's concerned its been 2 years 6 months since then. So she went from a stary-eyed agent, niece of Peggy Carter founder of SHIELD, who fought STRIKE for Cap, kissed him, babysat him, and went on run for him to...actively refounding Hydra and trying to create a race of super soldiers to conquer the world. WAT? What did Steve not sleep with her so now she's going to make it so all hunky super soldiers have to kiss her pouty lips? She has all the manic energy of a scorned lover, without the relationship backstory. And it makes no sense, why did she help Sam, Bucky and Zemo track down the super soldier serum guy when she already knew where he was and didn't want him harmed? She was actively working against her own interests for what, to misdirect the audience?

Elaine Benes is probably the worst cast character Marvel has ever done. She's Jewish New York snarky in a world of straight people who don't know she's trying to make a joke, and it throws scenes completely off. Should have been Carrie-Ann Moss in black leather. She at least is more menacing and sinister. Seriously Elaine is Lady Hydra, the brilliant criminal mastermind and Nick Fury's Ex-Wife?! The way she was directed to act I wouldn't trust her to be able to order a sandwich from a deli.

Flag Smashers were a complete non-start. Should have just left the other 7 Winter Soldiers from Civil War alive and had them be the ones running around. Also with her dying breath why didn't Karli out Sharon as the power broker?

Sam's new costume I didn't like, but it took them 2 movies and like 3 years to come up with a Captain America suit that didn't look cartoonish, so I'll let it pass. And Sam's speech to the Senators was a little forced, as was him descending like a literal angel with Karli's corpse Jesus Descent from the Cross style, but hey if people can honestly think the Sam Ramey spider man movies are good, including his own Jesus Descent from the Cross scene, I guess it is what it is.

Sam Walker stole the show as far as I'm concerned. Great to see US Agent, even if he's just an Avenger in time out.

Bucky was Bucky and that's always fun. A much better scene than him telling the father he killed his son, would have been telling the Therapist lady he was the one who killed someone close to her. That would have been a much better twist. But alas...

Isiah Bradley was an odd note. Like he openly said if he came out he'd be dead in a day, and I interpreted that to be literal, as in US or Hydra assassins would kill him to stop him telling the truth. But what, Sam makes a few phone calls and the whole world learns about a black super hero program from the 50s, and there's no backlash? He just gets a statue and wing in the Smithsonian, that somehow came as a surprise to him? You'd think it'd be all over the news. Also what role, if any, did SHIELD play in that program? Was like Peggy Carter or Howard Stark aware? Nick Fury? Tony Stark? The dumping of SHIELD and Hydra files from Winter Soldier? Its just done? Some great racial injustice, illegal human experimentation and torture that led to the Flag Smashers in the first place is just common knowledge and everyone's like yeah, sure, where's the ice cream?


Overall 7/10

 

[laggyteabag]

Overall, I thought it was fine.

Again, I loved Sam and Bucky together. I feel like Bucky in particular needed a lot more screentime, and Im really happy he got a tonne here.

Zemo coming back was great.

The action was decent.

I like John Walker.

I enjoy the conversation over what it means for a black man to become Captain America.

And regarding the character who @SilentPony hates - personally, I feel like she steals every scene that she is in. She might not be a faithful adaption of the character that she is supposed to be in the comics (I don't really know much about her to say either way), but I think she is super fun to watch.

But the weak link that brought the whole show down, though, were the flag smashers. I like their motivations. I like their goals. But as the main antagonists of the show, I don't feel like they worked as planned. Whenever they were the main focus of a scene, I just wished we were focusing on literally anybody else. As plot motivators to show how unhinged John Walker was - they worked - but as the focus of the finale, and the primary antagonists overall? No. I don't really think that they needed a face in Karli, and I actually just wish that they were nameless, faceless goons, who could jump out to attack at any moment. I think that they were a wasted opportunity.

Also, I would just like to touch on Sharon Carter, because her spiral into villainy doesn't really work for me. She is the niece of Peggy Carter. She had a relationship with Steve Rogers. She worked for SHIELD, and risked her life to help Captain America when HYDRA took over. Her suddenly becoming anti-government, and working with the very people who Steve would have fought... it just comes completely out of left-field. Im interested to see where they take her, obviously, but this seems like a bit of a character retcon.

 

[SilentPony]

And regarding the character who @SilentPony hates - personally, I feel like she steals every scene that she is in. She might not be a faithful adaption of the character that she is supposed to be in the comics (I don't really know much about her to say either way), but I think she is super fun to watch.

I agree she steals the scene, even if Walker stole the show, I just don't think its in a good way. Just the way she acts, that snarky "these shoes are not made for walking"...its the punch line to a joke no one said. And the way the scene pauses after every quip as if a laugh track is supposed to be there.
There's a line from Clerks to that roughly goes like "We we in the middle of a conversation I don't remember walking away from?" and that was my takeaway from her scenes. Walker's wife did a great job of being bemused, annoyed and speechless because that's how I would feel if a strange lady with purple hair walked up to me and started making situational awareness punchlines, Jerry Seinfeld style, but without the build up or situation itself explained.
I mean if she's an accurate recreation of the character, that's all well and good, then the comicbook character wasn't well done either. She just felt completely out of place, even if you can't look away.

 

[Piscian]

* tears off multi-million dollar high tech mask*

"Don't worry, they're not looking for me here"
...then why...the fuucckk..



Solid thumbs down for me. The dialog and action in this show screamed cable TV. Even the thing with Sharon giving exposition on the phone. It all felt so ...by the numbers. Like they were more focused on getting the series done than quality and optics. I looked up the staff and sure enough they're all TV background folks. This stuff doesn't bother most people. I know I'm being harsh, but I can tell filming on a schedule vs filming something with care. While wandavision wasn't perfect I feel like it was done with far more care, probably had a lot more eyes on it.

I also think it's super obvious a lot more time was spent getting the race stuff right. Isiah Bradley's scenes and dialogue were far and away more thoughtful and the final speech by falcon was riveting if unrealistic under the circumstances. I'll give praise for all that. When the focus is on falcons struggle with his place in the world and Buckys growth the show was solid. With a slight node to John walker being neat the rest was cheesy and forgettable. I feel confident I'll never come back to this season, and, assuming they do a second season, I'm not sure if I'd even be interested in seeing where it goes from here unless they amp up the production quality.

 

[SilentPony]

* tears off multi-million dollar high tech mask*

"Don't worry, they're not looking for me here"
...then why...the fuucckk..

I guess to board the plane over? But then again a fake ID/passport works just as well. And again again the Power Broker would have their own private plane, she's not flying Delta.
The Sharon storyline make 0 sense, so I won't try to defend it. It was just drama for drama's sake. A lot like WandaVision plot holes/misdirection that only served to trick the audience and narratively had no point.

 

[Hades]

I think a small problem of the final battle is that both sides were abysmal and incredibly hard to root for.

On one hand you have a bunch of terrorists kidnapping UN officials, but on the other hand those UN officials were conspiring to go around tormenting refugees when they stopped being useful to the UN. This seemed more like black vs black morality, rather than black vs grey morality.

The whole conflict also hinges on the global reparation council being a force of evil but we never really see them do anything evil. They are just some faceless entity that Karli groans about but we only have her word for it. We have that UN meeting about bullying refugees but that's supposed to be a different organisation than the council.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

We have that UN meeting about bullying refugees but that's supposed to be a different organisation than the council.

Is that not the GRC? Surely the GRC would just be some sub-committee or whatever of the UN.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Casual Shinji]

So, I dropped the show after episode 4, because I got the suspicion that everything that happend wouldn't really matter so long as it sets up Falcon as the new Cap. So that everyone who went from Endgame to whatever next Marvel movie and sees Falcon as Cap will figure 'oh yeah, he took the mantle at the end of the movie', making this whole series of events ultimately pointless.

 

[thebobmaster]

So, I dropped the show after episode 4, because I got the suspicion that everything that happend wouldn't really matter so long as it sets up Falcon as the new Cap. So that everyone who went from Endgame to whatever next Marvel movie and sees Falcon as Cap will figure 'oh yeah, he took the mantle at the end of the movie', making this whole series of events ultimately pointless.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The show does set up a couple of potential plot threads.

Spoiler

The biggest one being Sharon Carter, as the Power Broker, gaining access to a bunch of government and military secrets. I wouldn't be surprised if that was setting her up as the villain of Captain America 4.

It also sets up U.S. Agent/John Walker, so without seeing the show, he'll come right the fuck out of nowhere if they use him in future movies.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The show does set up a couple of potential plot threads.

Spoiler

The biggest one being Sharon Carter, as the Power Broker, gaining access to a bunch of government and military secrets. I wouldn't be surprised if that was setting her up as the villain of Captain America 4.

It also sets up U.S. Agent/John Walker, so without seeing the show, he'll come right the fuck out of nowhere if they use him in future movies.

As someone who skips every other MCU movie I can tell you it doesn't matter.

 

[SilentPony]

As someone who skips every other MCU movie I can tell you it doesn't matter.

I mean that doesn't entirely follow. If you watch Infinity War, skip Antman 2, and watch Endgame you'll be confused where the timetravel and Antman part comes from.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I mean that doesn't entirely follow. If you watch Infinity War, skip Antman 2, and watch Endgame you'll be confused where the timetravel and Antman part comes from.

Not really, Antman just tells people where he was, and the time travel is just something they pull out of their asses for the movie. It's all technobabble anyway.

 

[thebobmaster]

Will you be able to still make sense of stuff without FATWAS? Maybe, that remains to be seen. However, there is a difference between that and saying that everything that happens in FATWAS is "ultimately pointless."

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Will you be able to still make sense of stuff without FATWAS? Maybe, that remains to be seen. However, there is a difference between that and saying that everything that happens in FATWAS is "ultimately pointless."

I can't tell if FATWAS is a joke... I prefer to call it FAWS.

 

[thebobmaster]

I can't tell if FATWAS is a joke... I prefer to call it FAWS.

It was a typo. It should be FATWS. Not sure where the second A came from in my mind.