National Guard called into Minneapolis

[Agema]

Don't buy the "we're not real, we're not organized, it's just conspiracies. Antifa is anyone who is anti-fascist, duh" crap. Don't buy it. It's crap. They exist, they communicate, and they show up looking to start fights.

Sure. But in that case, if Antifa communicate and organise, then it has a definable "membership" (I use the term loosely).

So are those guys out there actually Antifa? Because it strikes me conservatives (mainly) are calling anyone throwing stuff or glowering at police Antifa irrespective of whether they've ever seen the inside of an Antifa chat room or not.

 

[Hawki]

That is assuming you think all violence is amoral. It was found to be morally acceptable to kill Nazis during WW2 and after via death sentences. It is considered Moral to kill ISIS. It isn't just a matter of " They are violent so they are bad", the details are important here. Nazis either have committed genocide or promote the doing so again. Antifa literally only exists because of the original Nazi's threat to others. Antifa came to be just by people taking it upon themselves to protect people from the Nazis because the police were failing to do so. Antifa's existence and increase in popularity has always been a reaction, rather than the original instigators. They seem to flare up every time racism is on the rise as a counter action.

Not all violence is immoral. Not all violence is moral either.

The Antifas of today aren't the Antifas that were anti-fascist when Nazism was on the rise. If you want to fight against Nazism or fascism, go ahead. Problem is, for Antifa, their definition of Nazi or fascist tends to be much broader than what we'd usually use. Like, just this weekend, I heard over the radio that the Australian chapter of Antifa treats Scott Morrison as a fascist. I mean, seriously? Centre-right is Antifa's designation of fascist?

And even that aside, Antifa's done plenty of damage. I think that's undeniable at this point.

Nazis and other racist groups have long been a serious threat to people's lives and sadly, instead of having the police protect the people, often the racists ARE police or have influence among them and this has left people with little options for help thus also increases the growth of Antifa. Antifa is not about not being violent, they are along the line of " Use force to stop Nazi's from ever being able to harm people again" Now although there are Anarchists and Anticapitalists who are also Antifa, that does not mean that all Antifa are anarchists or anticapitalists. It is sort of like saying all grocery store workers are Christians. Although a lot of people who work for a grocery store may be Christians, that does not mean the two different things are related. Often the different groups find themselves on the same side of a protest because there are a lot of groups who want to punch Nazis and racists...

How many actual Nazis are out there though? Because while we can agree that all Nazis are racist, not all racists are Nazis. And while that's picking your poison, one of those poisons is far more poisonous than the other.

Also, I don't care about Antifa having anarchists or anticapitalists in it. Seriously, you can be as anarchistic or anticapitalistic as you want, it's not going to bother me too much. But methods count for more than means, and many times, Antifa has used violence, and innocent people have suffered as a result. We've just seen the result right now.

So are those guys out there actually Antifa? Because it strikes me conservatives (mainly) are calling anyone throwing stuff or glowering at police Antifa irrespective of whether they've ever seen the inside of an Antifa chat room or not.

I agree that the right wing often throws out terms like "socialism" and "communism" around at the drop of the hat, but is Antifa any better in its use of "fascist" or "Nazi" to describe anything right of centre?

 

[tstorm823]

So are those guys out there actually Antifa? Because it strikes me conservatives (mainly) are calling anyone throwing stuff or glowering at police Antifa irrespective of whether they've ever seen the inside of an Antifa chat room or not.

That's why you hear actual officials describe it as "Antifa or Antifa-like groups", we're not so much concerned with direct connections so much as black bloc tactics by communists pretending to be anarchists and starting riots.

 

[lil devils x]

Antifa has protected exactly zero people from Nazis. You can rationalize the violence based on ideology all you want, Antifa showing up to political events has prevented exactly noone from being hurt by Nazis.

And all of that is based on you dismissing the specific politics being advocated. Antifa isn't storming the beaches of Normandy. They're roleplaying redshirts vs brownshirts. It's heainous ideologues hunting down the only group worse than them, and if they can't find any real Nazis, they'll make some up.

You really should watch some of the third party documentaries on Antifa, according to numerous non Antifa protesters, they have been protected by Antifa during protests due to Antifa putting themselves in between the protesters and Nazi's, police, or the random asshole who tries to attack them. It is the protesters from other groups who are the ones telling us that it was Antifa that brought first aid and helped them when they were tear gassed, hit with some Nazi shield or knocked to the ground and would have been trampled. While yes, they are ALSO known to use explosives, throw bricks and start a mosh pit in the middle of a pack of Nazi's, they are also known to protect protesters from other movements. Claiming they have helped no one isn't exactly true here, as anyone who has been following what numerous protesters from non related groups have repeatedly told us they have helped them.

 

[Breakdown]

You really should watch some of the third party documentaries on Antifa, according to numerous non Antifa protesters, they have been protected by Antifa during protests due to Antifa putting themselves in between the protesters and Nazi's, police, or the random asshole who tries to attack them. It is the protesters from other groups who are the ones telling us that it was Antifa that brought first aid and helped them when they were tear gassed, hit with some Nazi shield or knocked to the ground and would have been trampled. While yes, they are ALSO known to use explosives, throw bricks and start a mosh pit in the middle of a pack of Nazi's, they are also known to protect protesters from other movements. Claiming they have helped no one isn't exactly true here, as anyone who has been following what numerous protesters from non related groups have repeatedly told us they have helped them.

I'm not sure I'd want first aid from them, I've seen the video of the Antifa medic putting a tourniquet on a guy with a grazed leg.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Anyone thinking antifa are dangerous and should be classed as a terrorist organisation are nothing more than white supremacist mouthpieces, whether they're aware of it or not. Sure is easy to be the tutting white moderate these days. Like, literally the easiest path to take.

Was Pushed Buffalo Protester an 'Antifa' Agitator?

To support a claim like this, one wants some evidence other than a slow motion video of a man waving a cell phone.

www.snopes.com

 

[Seanchaidh]

Antifa has protected exactly zero people from Nazis.

Not according to people who were threatened by Nazis in Charlottesville.

 

[lil devils x]

Not all violence is immoral. Not all violence is moral either.

The Antifas of today aren't the Antifas that were anti-fascist when Nazism was on the rise. If you want to fight against Nazism or fascism, go ahead. Problem is, for Antifa, their definition of Nazi or fascist tends to be much broader than what we'd usually use. Like, just this weekend, I heard over the radio that the Australian chapter of Antifa treats Scott Morrison as a fascist. I mean, seriously? Centre-right is Antifa's designation of fascist?

And even that aside, Antifa's done plenty of damage. I think that's undeniable at this point.



How many actual Nazis are out there though? Because while we can agree that all Nazis are racist, not all racists are Nazis. And while that's picking your poison, one of those poisons is far more poisonous than the other.

Also, I don't care about Antifa having anarchists or anticapitalists in it. Seriously, you can be as anarchistic or anticapitalistic as you want, it's not going to bother me too much. But methods count for more than means, and many times, Antifa has used violence, and innocent people have suffered as a result. We've just seen the result right now.



I agree that the right wing often throws out terms like "socialism" and "communism" around at the drop of the hat, but is Antifa any better in its use of "fascist" or "Nazi" to describe anything right of centre?

Quite a few Nazi's groups these days as they have been growing:

Map of Hate Group Flyering in the U.S.

www.splcenter.org

They do not have to call themselves Nazi's to still be Nazi's for example:

Identity Evropa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

People who are racist but stop short of genocide are not suddenly " better" than Nazi's. We have already been there, done that and know where it leads. They are the ones enabling systemic racism and enabling Nazis to come to power in the first place. It didn't start with Genocide, it just leads to it. You act as if they are necessarily separate groups, rather they are just the evolution of the same group over time. Promote hate and hate builds to action. Action leads to war..

The problem is that in our current times racist and right of center are sadly often interchangeable when it comes to much of the politics going on in the US when we have have literal White Nationalist's like Steve King elected and people like Steve Miller in the white house. When Republicans finally kick out all the racists in their party, that will not be the case, but they haven't done that yet now have they?

It actually should matter if you have anarchists, as the anarchists are who actually WANT chaos and are usually the most violent. What is the result we are seeing from Antifa? From what I have seen, is Trump made up a bunch of BS after his son sent a link by a fake Antifa account, not that we have all this Antifa violence going on:

FBI 'has no intelligence' indicating antifa was linked to weekend violence in the George Floyd protests, despite Trump and Republicans' claims

The FBI and other federal agencies have warned, however, that far-right groups will try to incite violence in the George Floyd protests.

www.businessinsider.com

FBI says it wasn't Antifa, Trump is just talking out of his arse again. They have shown that white nationalists have been up to no good however:

Facebook shuts down far-right group planning to bring weapons to protests | CNN

Facebook said Tuesday that it had shut down pages and accounts associated with what it said was a hate group, whose members were discussing bringing weapons to the protests that are happening across the country.

www.cnn.com

Far-Right Infiltrators and Agitators in George Floyd Protests: Indicators of White Supremacists

Widely broadcast real-time video images challenge our beliefs about who is really protesting and for what reason.

www.justsecurity.org

The guy burning down Minneapolis was a Menards security guard, not related to Antifa...

 

[tstorm823]

You really should watch some of the third party documentaries on Antifa, according to numerous non Antifa protesters, they have been protected by Antifa during protests due to Antifa putting themselves in between the protesters and Nazi's, police, or the random asshole who tries to attack them. It is the protesters from other groups who are the ones telling us that it was Antifa that brought first aid and helped them when they were tear gassed, hit with some Nazi shield or knocked to the ground and would have been trampled. While yes, they are ALSO known to use explosives, throw bricks and start a mosh pit in the middle of a pack of Nazi's, they are also known to protect protesters from other movements. Claiming they have helped no one isn't exactly true here, as anyone who has been following what numerous protesters from non related groups have repeatedly told us they have helped them.

You're telling me to watch propaganda. Starting a fight and then giving someone a bandage because they got hurt in the fight you started isn't altruism, it's recruitment. It's closer to mafia tactics than anything. Cause the violence, then "protect" people.

Not according to people who were threatened by Nazis in Charlottesville.

You know what you should do if you find out Nazis are marching somewhere? Be somewhere else. Nazis did not go to Charlottesville to threaten people, Antifa did. If you're gonna pick a fight, Nazis are probably as worth fighting as anyone has ever been, but you can't pick the fight and then pretend you're actually keeping people safe who got caught up by your decision. Anyone Antifa "protects" is only in danger as collateral damage from Antifa.

 

[tstorm823]

People who are racist but stop short of genocide are not suddenly " better" than Nazi's. We have already been there, done that and know where it leads. They are the ones enabling systemic racism and enabling Nazis to come to power in the first place. It didn't start with Genocide, it just leads to it. You act as if they are necessarily separate groups, rather they are just the evolution of the same group over time. Promote hate and hate builds to action. Action leads to war..

The problem is that in our current times racist and right of center are sadly often interchangeable when it comes to much of the politics going on in the US when we have have literal White Nationalist's like Steve King elected and people like Steve Miller in the white house. When Republicans finally kick out all the racists in their party, that will not be the case, but they haven't done that yet now have they?

Republicans never invited racists in the first place. You're just perpetuating lies.

 

[lil devils x]

I'm not sure I'd want first aid from them, I've seen the video of the Antifa medic putting a tourniquet on a guy with a grazed leg.

An overzealous medic still might be appreciated when you have your eyes on fire and can't see anything from the gas and pepper spray.

 

[Worgen]

Not according to people who were threatened by Nazis in Charlottesville.

 

[lil devils x]

Republicans never invited racists in the first place. You're just perpetuating lies.

Steve King wasn't invited? Steve Miller wasn't invited? I think being a white house adviser to the president counts as " being invited". Being a GOP county chair counts as being invited right? How about the People creating the republican platform?

Conspiracy theories and racist memes: How a dozen Texas GOP county chairs caused turmoil within the party

On Friday morning, five GOP county chairs were facing backlash for sharing racist social media posts. The Texas Tribune identified seven other GOP county chairs across the state who shared similar posts.

www.texastribune.org

After Stephen Miller's white nationalist beliefs outed, Latinos ask, 'where's the GOP outrage?'

“I would implore my Republican colleagues to join us in calling for Stephen Miller’s resignation,” says a Democratic lawmaker.

www.nbcnews.com

‘Damn Right, I'm a White Nationalist’ Declares Texas GOP Platform Committee Member

A connected tea party activist says white nationalism has nothing to do with race supremacy — it’s just part of Trump’s “America First” vision.

www.texasobserver.org

" Not invited" my arse. They are pretty well entrenched at this point.

 

[Thaluikhain]

An overzealous medic still might be appreciated when you have your eyes on fire and can't see anything from the gas and pepper spray.

Not to mention, I'd imagine that the medical knowledge of large parts of the wider community is less than impressive.

 

[lil devils x]

Nazis did not go to Charlottesville to threaten people, Antifa did.

Did you really just say that? Of course the Nazi's went to Charlottesville to threaten the very existence of their fellow citizens. They are literally calling for the forced removal of non whites from their homes and you claim they are not threatening people? The Nazis have very much proved how much of a threat they are throughout our long history. The very fact that you think that their existence isn't a threat to all of those innocent people who they don't think belong to their group, speaks volumes. Promoting Nazi propaganda IS a threat by it's existence. We already knows what happens when they do this.

Defining the Enemy

Nazi ideology aimed to promote the myth of an ideal national community and label those who were to be excluded from it as enemies. Propaganda was essential in promoting such myths.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Yes, they very much ARE a threat:

Right Wing Extremist Attacks in the West Surge by 320%

The last five years has seen an increase in right wing extremist attacks in western countries, according to the Global Terrorism Index.

visionofhumanity.org

 

[Agema]

That's why you hear actual officials describe it as "Antifa or Antifa-like groups"

Actually, no I don't hear officials call it that. I just hear conservative politicians because they're the ones who generally set the tone and get the headlines, and they just say "Antifa" with no regard for whether it is or not.

 

[tstorm823]

Steve King wasn't invited? Steve Miller wasn't invited? I think being a white house adviser to the president counts as " being invited". Being a GOP county chair counts as being invited right? How about the People creating the republican platform?

Conspiracy theories and racist memes: How a dozen Texas GOP county chairs caused turmoil within the party

On Friday morning, five GOP county chairs were facing backlash for sharing racist social media posts. The Texas Tribune identified seven other GOP county chairs across the state who shared similar posts.

www.texastribune.org

After Stephen Miller's white nationalist beliefs outed, Latinos ask, 'where's the GOP outrage?'

“I would implore my Republican colleagues to join us in calling for Stephen Miller’s resignation,” says a Democratic lawmaker.

www.nbcnews.com

‘Damn Right, I'm a White Nationalist’ Declares Texas GOP Platform Committee Member

A connected tea party activist says white nationalism has nothing to do with race supremacy — it’s just part of Trump’s “America First” vision.

www.texasobserver.org

" Not invited" my arse. They are pretty well entrenched at this point.

Steve King was stripped of his seats and ousted. Steve Miller is just a Trump appointee who's anti-immigration, and they found anti-immigration views in his emails (no wai!) Your first link is people being instructed to resign from their positions by the larger Republican Party. The second is Steve Miller again. The third is a story of someone who didn't know what "white nationalist" meant, and thought it was just that he was both white and a nationalist, and his highest level of authority seems to be as delegate for Ted Cruz. You're not making a good argument.

Did you really just say that?

Yes. Of course I did. You seem to know better than anyone how many Nazi rallies and KKK events are going on, how many result in people run over?

You can agree something is bad and shouldn't exist without taking direct violence against it. There are consequences of direct violence. Nobody decides to go to war easily, you do so understanding the carnage that will result. Even in something as clear as WWII, you'd have to be psychotic to bomb the crap out of Germany, then care for the casualties and tell them "look at how kind we are, protecting you from those Nazis" after burning their cities to the ground.

 

[Houseman]

Seems that we're back to justifying violence again
Remember this post?

Of course people convince themselves of all sorts of bad things and think they are "right" , THAT is exactly why the Nazis were committing genocide in the first place.

That's exactly my point. We seem to be in complete agreement.

 

[tstorm823]

Actually, no I don't hear officials call it that. I just hear conservative politicians because they're the ones who generally set the tone and get the headlines, and they just say "Antifa" with no regard for whether it is or not.

Barr blames ‘Antifa and other agitators’ for riots despite right-wing links to violence

Attorney General William Barr singled out anti-fascist activists on Thursday for the violence that has erupted at George Floyd protests across the country — even though far-right groups have …

www.nydailynews.com

“We have evidence that Antifa and other similar extremist groups, as well as actors of a variety of different political persuasions, have been involved in instigating and participating in the violent activity,” Barr said in prepared remarks during a press conference at Justice Department headquarters.

President Trump Takes on Violent Protesters, Labels 'Antifa' a Terrorist Organization

WASHINGTON, D.C. (Texas Insider Report) — "The United States of America will be designating ANTIFA as a Terrorist Organization," said President Trump via Twitter Sunday evening, adding, "The Lamestream Media is doing everything within their power to foment hatred and anarchy.

keller.house.gov

Tweeted Trump earlier in the week: " Congratulations to our National Guard for the great job they did immediately upon arriving in Minneapolis, Minnesota, last night. The ANTIFA led anarchists, among others, were shut down quickly. Should have been done by Mayor on first night, and there would have been no trouble!

Oh look, I found what you aren't hearing in 30 seconds.

 

[Eacaraxe]

It was found to be morally acceptable to kill Nazis during WW2 and after via death sentences.

We've had this conversation before multiple times in the old forums. Awful funny how for as important as details seem to be, that maxim only seems to apply to details conducive to the argument.

Because we also found execution of surrendered troops morally acceptable so as to not endanger supply lines or retask combatants to military policing. We found saturation bombing, incendiary and cluster bombs, morally acceptable, as well as deliberate targeting of civilian populations and residential sectors. We found atomic bombs morally acceptable.

We found mass incarceration of Nazis and suspected Nazis morally acceptable, which you might argue is part and parcel of denazification, justice, and transitioning Germany to a post-war government. Sure, until you consider the Morgenthau plan was the full, forcible, deindustrialization of Germany, and the quiet part of the plan said out loud by its opponents was that meant depopulating Germany by approximately half through human trafficking, forced labor as "reparation", and planned starvation. Yet, under the Marshall plan and in the face of a burgeoning Cold War, we marched many of those same Nazis out of prison camps and right back into the government buildings they staffed before the war.

It's little wonder why that might have been the case. After all, the US didn't jail our Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, and Nazi profiteers at war's end -- we appointed them to the highest positions in the country, and elected them to office up to and including President. We named airports and schools after them.

Seventy years of that shit, yet somehow "Antifa" wasn't really a thing until bad orange man? Fifeen years' of rendition, torture, indefinite detention, extrajudicial killings, militarized policing, and warrantless mass surveillance, the latter half of which many of those now calling themselves "Antifa" defended because we had a black, but more importantly Democratic, President?