National Guard called into Minneapolis

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Revnak

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I confess, I have to not gone to a protest yet. In my defense, I've also spent the last couple of weeks dealing with some... medical misfortunes.
Alright. BLM is basically a black anarchist movement now, given how they have adopted police and prison abolition in their demands. Even at peaceful protests with police collaborators, chants of “no justice, no peace” and “no cops, no KKK, no fascist USA” are absurdly common. The absurd narrative of “outside white anarchist agitators” is so hilariously misguided it could only exist in the minds of suburbanites who have yet to be close to a protest.
 

Hawki

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People who are racist but stop short of genocide are not suddenly " better" than Nazi's. We have already been there, done that and know where it leads. They are the ones enabling systemic racism and enabling Nazis to come to power in the first place. It didn't start with Genocide, it just leads to it. You act as if they are necessarily separate groups, rather they are just the evolution of the same group over time. Promote hate and hate builds to action. Action leads to war..
I was unsure as to whether I should respond to this, since it's touching on the "don't tolerate intolerance" idea, and I actually agree with that. But again, I have to reiterate, all Nazis are racist, but not all racists are Nazis. I say that because as much as I hate to, Nazism does have distinct traits from other racism, including the idea of racial hierarchy, and pathological hatred of Jews. And I'd rather call a spade a spade, because right now, there's at least three definitions of racism that are in parlance, and the tenents of these definitions are, in some areas, mutually exclusive.

But back to Nazis. I mean, there's anti-semitism in the Middle East, that doesn't make Arabs or Persians Nazis. Similarly, there's racism in Israel towards Arabs, but I'm not sure how you can call Israelis Nazis, because by Nazism's own creed, they'd be the scum of the Earth. Places like Japan, Korea, and China have their own ideas of their own racial superiority, but I'm not sure how that leads to Nazism, because those ideas arose in different contexts. But even on the idea of a spectrum of racism leading towards Nazism in the West...I think that's a fair point, but it's still a spectrum. Like, I could be extremely racist against Asians and love Jews, but the Nazis made them "honourary Aryans," so am I being a Nazi, or a ****?

I really hated writing this, but language has a power of its own, so I think it's important to realize Nazism for what it is, as well as what it isn't. Because if "Nazi" is used for every form of racism out there, the term loses all meaning.

The problem is that in our current times racist and right of center are sadly often interchangeable when it comes to much of the politics going on in the US when we have have literal White Nationalist's like Steve King elected and people like Steve Miller in the white house. When Republicans finally kick out all the racists in their party, that will not be the case, but they haven't done that yet now have they?
Again, in the US. And I know the focus is on the US, but what happens in the US affects the world, even if the context doesn't fit. It's why BLM yells "hands up, don't shoot!" in the UK, despite UK police not carrying firearms, and deaths at the hands of police coming to about three a year in that country. It's why Antifa can call ScoMo a fascist, even though he's not done anything resembling a power grab at all. It's why I've seen some cases of Palestinian flags at BLM protests in the US because that's somehow related.

And again, that's not to say that BLM in the UK doesn't have legitimate grievances, or that ScoMo is above criticism, or what's happening in Israel-Palestine isnt' a tragedy, but FFS, let's at least have nuance here. I mean, you mentioned ISIS, so is it controversial to state that all members of ISIS are Muslim, but not all Muslims are Islamists? Again, I'm not fond of ScoMo, and I'm not fond of Islam, but again, context and perspective.

It actually should matter if you have anarchists, as the anarchists are who actually WANT chaos and are usually the most violent.
Anarchists can certainly be violent, but anarchism as a philosophy isn't inherently violent. Like, if we define anarchism as wanting a state of being free from hierarchy and government, then that isn't an indefensible creed. It's how humans have lived for most of our existence after all (and in various cases, still do).

Republicans never invited racists in the first place. You're just perpetuating lies.
*Cough*Southern Strategy*Cough

I'm breaking my 'no post during my work week' rule...



Do you know which setting I would one hundred percent agree with you?

If Antifa was in Canada right now. Or Sweden. Or places where systematic brutality of citizens does not happen and is not allowed by the populace.

But antifa is antifascist. Why are they in America?

Fascism

If one can read that definition and say that hasn't applied to Black people in this country for generations... well, one hasn't been paying attention to how Black America has been faring in their entire tenure here. America is hands down a dangerous and deadly place for Blacks to be, in all walks of life. If I have to live my life thinking about where I can enter for fear of my life, this is not the land of the free and the home of the brave. It is for some, but it's limiting in all fashions for others. To ignore that is a lie. And to tell me it's not true is to deny not only the decades of my life, but the lives of others who have enough. I had to shorten my God Given First Name because it's Swahili and my customers will go on a damn rant because they got another 'foreigner'.

I can't even WORK and be free enough to do that.

And that's just the citizenry. The Government is just unbelievable.

Beyond morals, let's talk brass tacks. Everything that any sentient lifeform deals with. Let's talk about Survival. There is a greater power, a greater force, one with more numbers, training, and firearms than I can ever accumulate in my life time. I tried talking with them, it went to deaf ears. I tried reasoning with them, and it went on deaf ears. Pleading, begging, protesting... deaf ears. I'm still getting the same treatment. And not only am I getting the same treatment, my fellow 'citizens' shrug and say that's the way life is and allows it to happen.

I'm supposed to turn away any force that will try and stick up for me? That will rally around me and fight with me?

We're alone out here. We don't get to be picky about who takes up arms to stand with us.
I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. And if it's a choice between Antifa and Nazis, that's an easy choice. But the crimes of one group doesn't erase the crimes of another group. Historically, the Nazis were a group that came to power in 1933, while Antifa was set up by the KPD, a Stalinist/communist party. Even agreeing that the Nazis are/were worse than commies/Antifa, that doesn't mean that Antifa gets a pass simply because they're the lesser of two evils. So if Antifa is standing up to Nazis in Charlotsville, good for them. If Antifa is commiting acts of violence and encouraging violence against innocent people, then that's something else.
 
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MrCalavera

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That article also says this.
Yes. Mine and Agema's are only two examples, so obviously, Minneapolis is a pending experiment still.
Nonetheless, the article also doesn't say the crime has *risen* - which kinda condradicts some of the conservative fearmongering, that defunding police force immediately turns towns into lawless hellholes.

Edit: the black flag is concealing a red flag. You can't miss that imagery. Black is a front, red is what they are.
That sounds almost like a fb conspiraboomer post. Like those secretive freemasons allegedly leaving their symbols everywhere, so the public can decipher their evil plans.

Could it be instead, that red flag(an old symbol of leftism as a whole) and black flag(symbol of anarchism) were chosen as a symbol by the many among Antifa identyfying as anarcho-communists? Could it be that's why the black flag comes first?(ANARCHO-communism)

Wait, nvm, i'm wrong.

Maybe there's another group, that uses communism as a front to lure unsuspecting statists into anarchism? Spooky.
 
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SupahEwok

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Yes, because you specifically looked for it because you have a point to make. But that's not actually how people tend to read the news, is it?
Actually, in my experience that's exactly how most people read the news.
 

Seanchaidh

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I don't know if it's good or bad that the right wing is so credulous.

Nope. I maintain my stance that a pandemic is the wrong time for a protest.
I don't moralize about it to others, but I'm not about to risk my health without health insurance. I can't afford an $8000 bill, let alone an $800,000 one.
 

SupahEwok

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I don't moralize about it to others, but I'm not about to risk my health without health insurance. I can't afford an $8000 bill, let alone an $800,000 one.
I don't risk it even with health insurance (which is going to run out in September, tho). A guy I know who had the 'rona recovered from the main part of the symptoms about a month ago, yet he can't breathe enough to sleep in more than fits and spurts. Another guy I know said that he had the 'rona for 2 months, and that time has completely blanked out on him in hindsight, he cannot remember them at all for being so sick. And I've heard secondhand accounts of people, 2 months into recovery, who still have so much trouble breathing that they cannot even go to the grocery store without collapsing back at home. None of them had cases "severe" enough to put them in the hospital.

I'm sorry, but I will moralize. Protesting during a pandemic is wrong. Thousands will die from it, who wouldn't have otherwise. Thousands more may be crippled from it. I, for one, am not going to risk bringing the virus home, to kill my parents or cripple myself. The people who are taking that risk now are only crippling their movement in the future as they kill the most avid supporters through flagrant unsafety. And I don't want to hear about the masks. Masks don't do crap for the virus. Social distancing is forgotten the moment the tear gas opens up.

And certain people who will sneer at those not willing to rub elbows in the picket line right now can shove it.
 

Revnak

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Nope. I maintain my stance that a pandemic is the wrong time for a protest.
It’s also the wrong time for cops to continue killing people at the same rate despite plummeting crime rates. It’s the wrong time for people to still have to go to work because our government has done nowhere near enough to help people during this shit. And if the issue is that people can’t social distance while being tear gassed, maybe the problem is cops tear gassing? Our country has already decided to throw us to the hounds with COVID, don’t blame marchers at this point.
 
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tstorm823

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Maybe this should be locked if it’s gonna just be used to parrot bizarre takes on history and politics rather than talk about the ongoing brutality this was supposed to be about.
The thread's literally about the rioting. Talking about rioters who fashion themselves after the militant wing of century old German communists is still very much on topic.

And as much as people are willing to whip out the "Antifa isn't an organization, it's just people against fascism" line, I guarantee that exactly nobody is falling for you playing coy.
*Cough*Southern Strategy*Cough
I'm pretty sure people are tired of me saying this by now, but the southern strategy is a modern myth. The Republican Party did not change policies to cater to racists, the southern states didn't really move to the GOP until basically the current millennium, it's a lie through and through.
 

SupahEwok

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It’s also the wrong time for cops to continue killing people at the same rate despite plummeting crime rates. It’s the wrong time for people to still have to go to work because our government has done nowhere near enough to help people during this shit. And if the issue is that people can’t social distance while being tear gassed, maybe the problem is cops tear gassing? Our country has already decided to throw us to the hounds with COVID, don’t blame marchers at this point.
There's blame for everyone.
 

Buyetyen

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Alright. BLM is basically a black anarchist movement now, given how they have adopted police and prison abolition in their demands. Even at peaceful protests with police collaborators, chants of “no justice, no peace” and “no cops, no KKK, no fascist USA” are absurdly common. The absurd narrative of “outside white anarchist agitators” is so hilariously misguided it could only exist in the minds of suburbanites who have yet to be close to a protest.
And I don't disagree. I'm on the side of the protesters. I just wanted to be honest about the fact that I haven't been to any local protests yet. Full disclosure, and all that. But hey, I'm on the mend and there's a whole summer ahead for the Republicans to make things worse. I doubt there will be a shortage of opportunities.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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They show up looking to protect people from violent racists.
Are these the same 'violent racist' who occupied a government building for like most of a day then cleaned up their litter and left quietly with 0 injuries or trouble when their protest was over and they felt they'd proved their point?

Or the lone gunmen shooters who are luckily somewhat rare? Because the lone gunman shooter types don't tend to announce themselves much before turning up.

Or is it protecting the world from 21 year old blonde girls daring to give an interview with Make Bitcoin Great again hats?

Oh no right it's little old lady's on walkers who are just trying to cross the road to get to their political rally of choice isn't it?

The justification seems to be "They're the nazis or collaborations so all actions are justified". AntiFA try to use fear and intimidation against people.

The thing is you can see how up for a fight they are because they'll even fight their own side


He was literally protesting on the same side as AntiFA but he dared bring an American flag with him


That is assuming you think all violence is amoral. It was found to be morally acceptable to kill Nazis during WW2 and after via death sentences. It is considered Moral to kill ISIS.
In the first case they were tried in courts and many weren't killed hell even some of the more serious ones saw only ~7 have life in prison imposed on them.

12 were given death sentences.

only 10 of those were carried out due to 2 suicides beforehand.

During wars then wartime rules apply. Calling what's going on a war is as laughable as it would be offensive to actual veterans who fought the actual nazis.


It isn't just a matter of " They are violent so they are bad", the details are important here. Nazis either have committed genocide or promote the doing so again.
So did Islamic state. simply labelling some-one a Nazi doesn't give any more right than labelling some Muslims going to temple as terrorists and then raiding the place with guns. Individuals do not have that power or right to do that.

Antifa literally only exists because of the original Nazi's threat to others. Antifa came to be just by people taking it upon themselves to protect people from the Nazis because the police were failing to do so. Antifa's existence and increase in popularity has always been a reaction, rather than the original instigators. They seem to flare up every time racism is on the rise as a counter action.
And in response it spawned the Brown shirts in Germany before WWII. A group who modern AntiFA seems to be acting more like.

Nazis and other racist groups have long been a serious threat to people's lives and sadly, instead of having the police protect the people, often the racists ARE police or have influence among them and this has left people with little options for help thus also increases the growth of Antifa.
Haven't most of the actual White nationalist deaths in the USA been lone gunmen attacks etc? You know the kind with no planning that often Police have to go in and take the shooter down?


Sure. But in that case, if Antifa communicate and organise, then it has a definable "membership" (I use the term loosely).

So are those guys out there actually Antifa? Because it strikes me conservatives (mainly) are calling anyone throwing stuff or glowering at police Antifa irrespective of whether they've ever seen the inside of an Antifa chat room or not.
Generally the Red-Black get up plus Patches and even sometimes flags tends to be a give away.

They're more likely AntiFA than the Black guy who pointed his gun at the Police who was being called a white supremacist the other day

A little bit of an ironic criticism from a supporter of the current president.
Trump may be a lot of things but he is quite liberal seemingly and he's kept some of the worst aspects of say Mike Pence in check.


Nope. I maintain my stance that a pandemic is the wrong time for a protest.
No I have been part of two groups who sent notice in the past that we were going to do a sit in but in both cases it never got that far because the party notified of the plans decided it was easier to give people what they wanted rather than deal with a bunch of disgruntled but also quite determined students.

I did also play my part in getting my Uni at the time to be the first in the country to switch to opposing tuition fees literally breaking from the National Students Unions position.
 
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SupahEwok

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No I have been part of two groups who sent notice in the past that we were going to do a sit in but in both cases it never got that far because the party notified of the plans decided it was easier to give people what they wanted rather than deal with a bunch of disgruntled but also quite determined students.

I did also play my part in getting my Uni at the time to be the first in the country to switch to opposing tuition fees literally breaking from the National Students Unions position.
That's simply darling. Were you intending to sit with a bunch of fellow students coughing up tuberculosis? Because I would have condemned that as well.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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News for those who may want it.

Protester critically injured after protesters pull down confederate monuments and the monument lands on his head


Video of them pulling it down (doesn't show the actual injury as it falls below the shot)


The autonomous zone of Capital Hill that people had named the state of Chaz has become a failed independent nation before even gaining independence and has been abandoned


In 24 hours it has had

- A food shortage after homeless people invited in to get food allegedly stole all the communal food and then left with it. They were unable to get the vegan meat substitute food they wanted brought in.
- A Soundcloud amateur rapper and his crew take over the territory and become warlord of the zone
- One of the founders of the Zone outed as a physical and sexual abuser who then vowed to commit seppuku (and and her father turned up on 4chan and disowned allegedly)
 

Dwarvenhobble

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That's simply darling. Were you intending to sit with a bunch of fellow students coughing up tuberculosis? Because I would have condemned that as well.
This was years ago not recently lol

Also I quoted the wrong person I meant to
Edit- here’s a fun one, have even one of you motherfuckers been to a protest?
Which would hopefully make my answer make more sense.
 

MrCalavera

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The autonomous zone of Capital Hill that people had named the state of Chaz has become a failed independent nation before even gaining independence and has been abandoned


In 24 hours it has had

- A food shortage after homeless people invited in to get food allegedly stole all the communal food and then left with it. They were unable to get the vegan meat substitute food they wanted brought in.
- A Soundcloud amateur rapper and his crew take over the territory and become warlord of the zone
- One of the founders of the Zone outed as a physical and sexual abuser who then vowed to commit seppuku (and and her father turned up on 4chan and disowned allegedly)
Looks like we got two different narratives on our hand:


 
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