National Guard called into Minneapolis

[tstorm823]

And how was he the same? different?

I mean, if you'd like, I can toss up a bunch of quotes from the respective platforms of 1968 and 1980 and play a guessing game of when each quote was from.

No, but I'd suggest the average US Communist is going to be more concerned about being socially ostracised, harassed by the authorities and shot by right-wing yahoos than conducting a secret conspiracy to subvert the USA. it's not like there are Soviets planting agents any more.

Their only concern is advancing the ideology of communism. It's sort of like the memes about vegans constantly talking about veganism, but far more real. Every political moment is an opportunity to make it about communism. Poverty? Communism. Climate change? Communism. Police brutality against black Americans? Let's set up an "autonomous zone" where we can practice communism. Can you think of something less productive for enacting meaningful change than that distraction?

 

[Hawki]

No, but I'd suggest the average US Communist is going to be more concerned about being socially ostracised, harassed by the authorities and shot by right-wing yahoos than conducting a secret conspiracy to subvert the USA. it's not like there are Soviets planting agents any more.

Peh, far as you know.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Stay out of it, Pauline

Goddamn I wish she’d go back to running her fish and chip shop.

Second that. OTOH, glad to see that both sides of politics are united in their "we're not doing this".

 

[Hawki]

Let's set up an "autonomous zone" where we can practice communism.

I thought they were practicing anarchism?

Whatever. It's certainly fallen into warlordism by the latest reports.

 

[Agema]

Their only concern is advancing the ideology of communism. It's sort of like the memes about vegans constantly talking about veganism, but far more real. Every political moment is an opportunity to make it about communism. Poverty? Communism. Climate change? Communism. Police brutality against black Americans? Let's set up an "autonomous zone" where we can practice communism. Can you think of something less productive for enacting meaningful change than that distraction?

So how do they differ from any other political persuasion? Take a libertarian, a conservative and a liberal and they'll just tell you all the world's problems can be solved by libertarianism, conservatism and liberalism respectively.

 

[tstorm823]

So how do they differ from any other political persuasion? Take a libertarian, a conservative and a liberal and they'll just tell you all the world's problems can be solved by libertarianism, conservatism and liberalism respectively.

They differ in that the conservative and liberal are actually trying to solve the problems of the day (and to a much lesser extent, the libertarian). Conservative policies or liberal policies are wide and varied and depend on the circumstances. There's no conservative or liberal panacea. A conservative or liberal will start with their preferred philosophical position, approach a problem, and reason their way to the response that works within the base philosophy. But the answer to a given problem is still catered to that problem. The communist approach is one solution for every problem. It's one thing to have answers all based on the same worldview, it's another thing entirely to prescribe one single solution to every problem: the abolition of private property and the end of hierarchy.

 

[Seanchaidh]

They differ in that the conservative and liberal are actually trying to solve the problems of the day

They differ in that the conservative and liberal and libertarian don't actually recognize the root causes of the problems of the day. The conservative and liberal respond to novelties, and sometimes even treat symptoms, but have little ability to successfully address the problems caused by the economic structure itself because they think or like to pretend that the limitations imposed by the ruling economic system are laws of nature. Specificity is not the same thing as accuracy.

 

[tstorm823]

They differ in that the conservative and liberal and libertarian don't actually recognize the root causes of the problems of the day. The conservative and liberal respond to novelties, and sometimes even treat symptoms, but have little ability to successfully address the problems caused by the economic structure itself because they think or like to pretend that the limitations imposed by the ruling economic system are laws of nature. Specificity is not the same thing as accuracy.

Dear Agema,
Here is the difference straight from the horse's mouth. To paraphrase: there are no individual problems, the system is always the problem.

Thanks, Seanchaidh.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Dear Agema,
Here is the difference straight from the horse's mouth. To paraphrase: there are no individual problems, the system is always the problem.

Thanks, Seanchaidh.

Not only have you confused specificity with accuracy, you have also invented a 'paraphrase' out of thin air.

 

[tstorm823]

Not only have you confused specificity with accuracy, you have also invented a 'paraphrase' out of thin air.

You think conservative and liberal solutions are ineffective because they aren't blanket communism. I understand.

 

[MrCalavera]

To paraphrase: there are no individual problems, the system is always the problem.

Which again, is broad enough it can be assigned to every political ideology.

 

[MrCalavera]

It's no-where near perfect it's an idealist place with little to not practicality in terms of it surviving more than a month.

Oh, i wouldn't be suprised if it lasts *less* than a month.

I just don't see the reason to value narrative pushed by the people who would be hostile to the idea from the start, especially on the ideological grounds, over those that are on the site.

 

[tstorm823]

Which again, is broad enough it can be assigned to every political ideology.

No, no it can't.

Look at the specific problem of police brutality. You can do measures to increase police accountability, weaken the unions, pull back back qualified immunity, increase and reform police training, ban certain tactics, invest in pro-active crime prevention programs... there's a long list of possible answers. Most people of most persuasions will prefer some combination of the long list of specific answers. One particular ideology thinks all of those are worthless and the problem in unsolvable so long as we have capitalism.

 

[MrCalavera]

No, no it can't.

The system prevents workers from obtaining the means of production.
The system upholds oppresive hierarchy.
The system perpetuates white supremacy.
The system benefits from global North/South division.
The system erodes democratic values.
The system enforces sexism.
The system endangers global enviroment.
The system could work better.
The system works fine.
The system doesn't protect traditional values.
The system turned against patriots.
The system works for the elites.
The system allows to kill unborn babies.
The system was designed by the freemasons.
The system is rigged by Jewish Bankers.
The system is set to attack and dethrone God.

You got me, every except one.

Look at the specific problem of police brutality. You can do measures to increase police accountability, weaken the unions, pull back back qualified immunity, increase and reform police training, ban certain tactics, invest in pro-active crime prevention programs... there's a long list of possible answers. Most people of most persuasions will prefer some combination of the long list of specific answers. One particular ideology thinks all of those are worthless and the problem in unsolvable so long as we have capitalism.

I come from a former Eastern Bloc country. Do you really think we didn't have police force back in the 'real socialism' days?

 

[happyninja42]

Their only concern is advancing the ideology of communism. It's sort of like the memes about vegans constantly talking about veganism, but far more real. Every political moment is an opportunity to make it about communism. Poverty? Communism. Climate change? Communism. Police brutality against black Americans? Let's set up an "autonomous zone" where we can practice communism. Can you think of something less productive for enacting meaningful change than that distraction?

That's hardly unique to communists. The idea of turning EVERY issue back to a topic/stance they want is very common for the current crop of Republican Conservatives. Any time someone questions their stance on something, they whip out the bible and the 'murican flag, and try and accuse the person who DARES to criticize their way of life as "attacking america" or the other I always hear "it's my god given right" and other bullshit platitudes. They've twisted up their nationalism and their faith into this huge, tentacular ball, and use it to justify pretty much whatever they want.

So yeah, I don't see how that's any different than communists who try and say that the ills of the world could be solved with their belief system, when the other side does the same thing. "If we only got god back in the schools, and got back to a greater time in america, and all that crap. America's problems would just fall away. If everyone would just believe the way we tell them to, nobody would disagree with our policies."

 

[tstorm823]

That's hardly unique to communists. The idea of turning EVERY issue back to a topic/stance they want is very common for the current crop of Republican Conservatives. Any time someone questions their stance on something, they whip out the bible and the 'murican flag, and try and accuse the person who DARES to criticize their way of life as "attacking america" or the other I always hear "it's my god given right" and other bullshit platitudes.

Yeah, but you're comparing the worst Republicans to all communists.

 

[Seanchaidh]

You think conservative and liberal solutions are ineffective because they aren't blanket communism. I understand.

No. You don't. Communism isn't even one thing, first of all. There are many different kinds of communism.

But more to the point, it's not at all that there must be some specific solution that will solve all problems. It is rather that there are several features of our current economic system that cause many-- not all-- problems.

Consider infectious disease: even neoclassical economists will readily understand that the decision of whether or not to seek treatment for an infectious disease has third party implications-- in this case, benefits to society for seeking treatment-- that are not whatsoever reflected in the market price. Market failures of this kind are a feature of a great variety of problems. And this kind of failure is so pronounced in healthcare that many otherwise capitalist countries have entirely abandoned markets as a way of distributing healthcare.

Consider outsourcing: employees are not consulted on whether to outsource except when the threat of outsourcing is used as a bludgeon to try to lower wages. This would not be a problem without the employer-employee dichotomy in which employers want to pay employees as little as possible while making sure those employees produce as much as possible. That employer-employee dichotomy is also the root cause of many other issues, such as the tension between profit and workplace safety resulting in unnecessary risk of injury and death. Relatedly, the hierarchical nature of the firm (as well as the desperation caused by the threat of poverty) is the root cause of many workplace harassment issues because we've constructed situations in which people are reliant on the whim of a superior for their continued stable existence.

To say that capitalism causes many problems is not the same thing as saying that some variety of socialism or communism will solve all problems.

Serious people: we need stricter regulations regarding the rape of slaves, family separation, housing conditions for slaves, abuse by overseers, working conditions for slaves, and so on
Hopeless ideologues: the system of slavery is the problem

Yeah, but you're comparing the worst Republicans to all communists.

happyninja42 is comparing the worst Republicans to your straw man.

 

[tstorm823]

I come from a former Eastern Bloc country. Do you really think we didn't have police force back in the 'real socialism' days?

When communists say that real communism has never been tried, they aren't lying. They're misguided, but I'm more than willing to argue with what people believe rather than my perception of their failure.

 

[Revnak]

Once again, if you are interested in what actual journalists who are actually in Seattle are saying, here’s an article.

Welcome to the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, where Seattle protesters gather without police

What is CHAZ? At the newly named Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, on a handful of blocks in Seattle’s quirky, lefty Capitol Hill, demonstrators are setting up a new protest society that on Tuesday was free of uniformed police. How long...

www.seattletimes.com

 

[happyninja42]

Yeah, but you're comparing the worst Republicans to all communists.

So you are able to blanket condemn all communists, and not allow for variation, but I'm supposed to allow for variation for your party? When my personal experience is there is none among your faction? Sorry, but no. You don't get to just say "yeah but you can't say all republicans are like that" while in the same breath saying "all communists are like this."