To be fair, you'd kinda expect the villain in a kung fu movie to be a kung fu master as well.
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings Trailer
- Thread starter Bob_McMillan
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I don't think that's a problem exclusive to Marvel.
I mean, TBH, I actually really like the idea of a doppleganger villain, but you can easily overdue it. I pointed out in my PPGS2 review that the season does the motif three times, after season 1 did it already (and better). Or take CW's The Flash. "My name is Barry Allen, and I'm the fastst man alive...except for all the other speedster villains who are faster than me."
Also, isn't the villain in this his dad? Who is the current owner of the 10 rings? A magical item that's been clearly established to be sought after by multiple people of this martial arts society? So, is it really that strange for...oh I don't know, tons of people who all grew up training in the same area/culture/martial arts tradition to have *gasp* the same powers?
This just seems like a very strange criticism. That's like bitching that the dudes in a Bruce Lee film, do kung fu. I mean...yeah? That's what it says on the box. This is what we bought. A kung fu movie about people doing *gasp* kung fu!! What a shocker!
Next you'll be telling me that the rival in a boxing film is good at boxing!!! Scandalous!!
Yeah, I have no idea what Dirty Hipster nor Hawki are going on about. I mean I do get it, but I don't know why they're that shocked about it. I know there's this inclination lately to hate on Marvel or to criticize them harsher now that they're super popular, but that sort of stuff is unnecessary. I don't like all the MCU either, but I'm not going to hate every single thing that comes or quit all together. One thing I am sick of is the whole, "I am done with the MCU" or marvel hot take videos that have been around YouTube lately.
The movie is doing what's advertised, so there really shouldn't be that many complaints at all. At least wait until you see the movie first. You and I are correct, this is a martial arts movie, and those almost always have some type of evil counter part that has almost the exact same moves, or skill sets as a protagonist.
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I wasn't really criticizing anything, just pointing out that the 'doppleganger problem' isn't unique to Marvel.
Also, "inclination to hate on Marvel lately?" Um, that's been going on for quite awhile.
I don't think it's strange at all. Kung Fu and Sport movies are a different genre, and usually way more grounded because they follow real sports, with normal people(aside stuff like wuxia). Yes, often highely exagerrated in some areas - but that's for drama, like all movies. The characters are mostly well built, technically skilled dudes that are often even in the same weight category. The gist is as much about normal human being overcoming limitations as it's about rivalry.
Superhero movies, especially those in MCU are sold as putting accurate comic book extravagancy before realism, and featuring literal gods and practical demigods, and a whole menagerie of colorful characters - and that's fine, it's one of the reasons it's been so succesful for 10 years.
But then you'd expect some more clever fights with all this roaster, than man-punch-man action, "i'm you but stronger" guy who gets pummeled into ground in the end. That switch when protag has to suddenly fight his mirror is clever once, can be interesting with ongoing, evolving rivalry. But not when repeated and dropped. For 10 years.
Looking back, the MCU has done this often, but it is highly exaggerated. The MCU movies that do not involve mirror bosses are:
- All of the Avengers movies.
- Captain America: The First Avenger
- Captain America: Civil War
- Iron Man 2 & 3
- All of the Thor movies.
- Both Guardians of the Galaxy films.
- Both Spider-Man movies.
- Doctor Strange
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Except this IS a Kung Fu movie, so I don't see why anyone would be surprised to learn that the antagonist is using Kung Fu, and is a mirror opposite of the protagonist. Even if you limit the discussion to Kung Fu films only, that's still a pretty ubiquitous trope. It's not unique to MCU.
Why should I expect that? The comic books these stories and characters are based on, and often pulled directly from for plots and scenes, do that all the time. Superman has what, 3 villains/antagonists that are just variants on "I'm you but mean" ? Bizarro, Shazam, Black Adam. Flash has what...Anti-Flash? Nega-Flash? Green Lantern has Yellow Lantern, I mean the list goes on and on.
But again, it's a KUNG FU film. Why would anyone see that, and then be critical of "they punch/kick" each other. That is what Kung Fu is! It's like being angry that wire-fu movies have wire work in the combat, and flowy sword battles.
Besides, it's clearly not the only thing in this film. The first trailer shows a Fu Dog, the size of a freaking SUV, running into battle with other spirit demon thingies, we have the magic elements on display at least twice (the airbending shot of that woman in the courtyard) and the water bending shot in....what I assume is some kind of mystic vault. There is power of the 10 rings themselves, which allows the wielder to project power at a distance from their body, potentially in a myriad of creative ways (though that will be limited to the creativity of the dev team).
So it seems fairly clear that more is going on than "just punching dudes that are like me." They're just saving that for the actual film, not the trailers. Besides, this is a legacy story, about a crime family, and a black sheep son, returning home to claim his birthright under his own terms, from a father he despises. And with at least 1 rival (probably a brother/cousin given how these familial stories tend to go), vying for the power he is destined to get. I don't know why anyone would see a story like that, and expect something outside the norm, like laser guns, spaceships, and other shit. But, hey this is Marvel, all that shit IS out there, so it very well could show up.
Yeah, i re-read your post and i apologize. For some reason i read it as a part of this discussion veering into MCU in general. That's why i didn't even mention Shang-Chi.
You can ignore my post. It was aimed more at MCU over the years, not this show in particular.
But also:
Oh, don't think i excuse DC of this. They both can be guilty of that. But Marvel has put out way more content, and that's why it has more instances of this.
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I only mean I don't think there is anything to really "excuse." The criticism I was initially replying to, was the one about saying that Marvel tends to have the bad guys, just be opposites of the hero, in both power and basic premise/concept. My point is that this is a pretty standard trope in storytelling in general. I mean yeah I used another comic publisher to give examples, but that's just because those are the ones that sprang to mind. But, "I am you, if only you had made some dark choices" trope is...well exactly that. A VERY common trope of storytelling. Especially if the story is a family/legacy, take up the mantle, sins of the father kind of story, which this one clearly is. That's where the drama is often rooted. "Will the hero give in to pressure/temptation, and be just as bad as their evil parent, when given the same power? Or will they make their own way?' Because of course the parent is going to tempt them, and threaten the things they love, to try and "teach them the true path" kind of thing.
Which is why I just think, at least with this film, given the various elements of it, that criticizing it for "having a villain that is just the hero reversed" is a bit misguided. Sure, I agree, that Marvel probably does do this a lot with the films, but again, they are often just pulling from the source material, which does that a lot anyway. But I don't think it's out of place for this story. Of course the antagonist/rival (not counting the dad, but I'm assuming there is another, young rival for the 10 Rings), is going to be like the hero. He's going to be the guy who is fully on board with the whole "Global Crime Syndicate" thing, with his own ambition and all that. He's going to be second pick though, because daddy wants his son to take his place. The rival, I'm sure will say something like "You left for 10 years! I was here! Every day! Supporting the family and the triad! YOU went galivanting around the globe, without a care in the world! And then you come traipsing back to claim your birthright?! YOU DON'T DESERVE IT!! I DO!! " *cue fight scene* So, yeah, I mean of course he'd be the same skill set.
I think the main reason they do the Dopperganger in most of the origin movies, is that saves some runtime from explaining a villain with a drastically varying set of powers. And also generally establishes that the hero's personality/good intent beyond their powers, since if you give the same/similar power to someeone else, they become evil.
Sure, its a trope, but its one thats evolved because it works.
Iron Man 2 is probably the main case for saying they used it a second time around, with very poor results. Which is more down to the writing of Hammer and/or Whiplash then anything.
Sure, its a trope, but its one thats evolved because it works.
Iron Man 2 is probably the main case for saying they used it a second time around, with very poor results. Which is more down to the writing of Hammer and/or Whiplash then anything.
I know it's a trope. And like every trope, you can overrely on it, and end up with a cliché.
You can both have protags and enemies playing to their own strenghts, with those strenghts being very different. Go wild.
That isn't a call to completely get rid of a trope, it's a call to diversify.[/QUOTE]
Oh, Iron-Man used this 3 times.
First one is evil bussinessman in a bigger suit than Tony.
2nd is evil bussinessman with his own robotic suits.
3rd is evil bussinessman without suit, but fire powers.
1st one is absolutely fine, also Jeff Bridges.
2nd you see the repeated shtick, but it doesnt seem as bad because the movie has worse problems
3rd the fire guy gets killed by Pepper, also with her newly gained fire powers. That last one's a bit nitpicky, cause theres also a twist here, but yeah.
Atleast Mandarin switcheroo was better than hwhiplash.
I'm actually not that familiar with Iron Man, but aren't most of his villains in the Tech style of origin? To clarify, I'm not talking about the various villains from other titles that he might run into, I'm talking about the "classic" rogue's gallery of villains, that are, traditionally at least, considered Iron Man villains first. I always got the impression he was usually going up against people somewhat similar to him in general. People with gadgets and tech as their "superpower", and not magic and aliens and such.
Isn't that the case?
Separate from that, I do think it's important to peel back the MCU label, when criticizing things for having tropes. Because come on, yeah sure, there have been what, 20+ MCU films? And yes, it is less than creative to do the "hero but evil" trope. But, there are thousands....possibly millions of kung fu films at this point in the world, and they ALL have the premise of "I have the same powers as the hero." But nobody really complains about that. Because it's what you expect in a kung fu film. I think it's important to look at this film as itself, and not try and compare it to other films in the MCU, at least when talking about plot components and structure.
So apparently you pronounce Shang-Chi as "Shung-Chi". Does that mean Shang Tsung should also be pronounced as Shung Tsung? I also wonder if they'll pronounce it correctly in the movie. Would be hella funny if they didn't.
EDIT: Nevermind, his actor pronounces it correctly. There's still probably gonna be more than a few confused moviegoers though.
EDIT: Nevermind, his actor pronounces it correctly. There's still probably gonna be more than a few confused moviegoers though.
You think that's bad? Wait until they mention the energy they are using for their magic kung fu is called chi. Which I have heard pronounced no less than 3 different ways, even between people theoretically more knowledgeable on the word from their own language.
Bottom line, English spelling to Asian pronunciation is a mess, for most Westerners. Expect it to be fucked up...a lot.
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It's not a kung fu movie though. It's a superhero movie, except the superhero uses magic kung fu powers.
In a kung fu movie, yes everyone would be a martial artist of some kind probably. This isn't Ip Man or The Raid though. In a superhero movie the villain can be anything, and it could be much more interesting if it wasn't just kung fu man.
I don't know if I agree with that. I'd rather have a kung fu movie that also happens to be a superhero movie. The same way people wanted The New Mutants to be a horror movie that happened to have the X-men.
Theoretically of course. If the kung fu in the movie isn't exceptional, then frankly it would be pointless and I'd agree that a villain with different powers would be more interesting.