What are you currently playing?

[Dalisclock]

Finished LoZ: Breath of the Wild this morning

Not entirely done. I still have a few things I want to do before I'm done done, such as look for the leviathans(I found one behind Death Mountain and apparently there's one in the desert and one in the mountains) and I want to do the spring of power, after having done the springs of courage and wisdom(the finding the dragon on top of the mountain after that climb was quite cool, and the journey up there felt very epic).

Anyway, I more or less fumble fucked my way up through Hyrule castle, which felt both cool and annoying at the same time. Approaching the castle via a variety of different routes is interesting, either the sneaky infiltration or just going straight through the no mans land of castle town to smash through the front gate. It's inside where it becomes an issue of trying to get around the big piles of purple evil goo blocking the way, and while there are entrances to different parts of the castle it feels like some of them don't allow you to go further up, they dead end and you have to backtrack to where you came in to continue up the mountain). Initially tried to do it the proper way, finally got frustrated, saw a waterfall and said "Fuck it" and Zora Swam my way up the waterfalls till I reached the top. I found lots of cool treasures but mostly as a side effect of trying to find a route to progress.

Anyway, Ganon was fine as a boss, though I mostly tanked my way through the fight using food heals. Giant Piggy Ganon was more of an interesting premise then an interesting fight because ganon can't do much more then shoot at you when you're in front of him and you can literally run rings around him. It only lasted as long as it did because I forgot to equip the bow of light and so I was shooting lightening arrows at him and wondering why I wasn't doing any damage.

On a more story/ character side, I did enjoy the flashbacks/memories as far as telling the story, which means you can more or less skip them if you want. Of course, there's the loaming sense of dread since they talk about getting ready for ganon's return and how they're gonna be ready, and seeing the world as it is now tells you exactly how well that all went. I do appreciate Zelda getting some nice characterization(ikeep in mine I've only played the early games up to OoT before now so I'm comparing it against those games where Zelda is barely there).

With that being said, there's a bunch of stuff knocking around in the back of my mind I'm gonna briefly talk about before finishing. Knowing about the timeline(s) and a bit about the other games, I'm gonna guess that somehow BOTW is basically a world where the 3 timelines and various versions of Hyrule have all either merged/collapsed together and/or this is basically a big meta remix of the entire series up until now. I say that because there are references to things from all 3 timelines that shouldn't be seen alongside each other if BOTW follows one particular timeline and the map feels like it's features from hyrule from numerous different games all over the place but in ways that don't really match any of them specifically(Spectacle Rock, for example, is normally hanging out near Death Mountain, not on the far side of the Map, and the position of the sea matches Hyrule from the NES games much better then any of the other zelda maps I've seen)

This might have something to do with the whole 10,000 year time gap between this and the apparent Hyrulian Super Civilization that built the divine beasts and the guardians and the shrines before mostly disappearing from history after taking down Gannon the first time round(at least, that's presumably what happened) but was also never really alluded to any other games so it probably takes place after the last game in the series before this(which might be all of them), or it might be the Devs want to soft reboot the frachise and build a new continuity from here on out by creating this new land and backstory. It probably doesn't matter that much in the long run considering the devs seem to do gameplay first, the games don't have that much to do with each other and get slotted in wherever on the timeline for the most part(the older/2d games all tend to get dumped into the "Downfall" timeline, for example, probably due the weirdness inherent in some of them).

 

[happyninja42]

Reply to HappyNinja(Snipped because the forum totally doesn't want to let me post my reply if your point is quoted because it apparently upsets the gremlins in the code or something)

Not a problem.

So to my understanding, the real world(Doyalist) explanation for everything being so cryptic is because Miyazaki loved reading western fantasy as a child but didn't know much english, so he's picking up what little he can with the limited english he knows and it created this whole sense of mystery for him of just what's going on in the rest of the story he can't actually read. The experience impressed in him so much that that's apparently why the Souls Lore is basically a bunch of tiny pieces that are mostly disconnected from each other, to replicate that same feeling for the players. It's kinda like the story that the Legend of Zelda was inspired by Shigeru Miyamoto exploring the countryside as a child and he wanted to replicate that in the first game(which is wandering about in the wilderness and plunging into forgotten places/caves/etc).

Didn't see this until today, so apologies for delay in reply.

As to why he did it. That's fine and all, I get the rationale, but it doesn't make it a good structure for a game. Intentionally replicating confusion by leaving out context to your game, isn't a good way to structure a story. The stories that he was replicating, explained a LOT more than he is. It's not actually replicating the stories of western fantasy that he loved, by restricting the story to the minimal amount he was able to understand.

It means that you are forcing your audience to outsource their information to YT, and other sources, and basically spend time NOT playing your game, to understand your game. *shrugs* I don't consider that a good storytelling model. You don't have to explain everything, but when you explain nothing, you can't really complain when people criticize you for not having a story structure. Because you don't. Just pointing in a direction and say "Go kill shit in that direction." Isn't a really compelling motivation for anyone aside from Sir Lancelot in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

I mean I've been playing it for several hours now, and aside from having vague ideas of a direction (down there is a bell and a badguy, up there is a bell and 2 badguys), it's basically just a map, with some janky physics and enemies, wandering around with their thumbs up their ass. I don't really feel invested to figure out what's going on. It's just a collection of weirdos that are mostly hostile, neutral but giggling loons, or a single dude who is sane, but has a big hardon for the sun, but at least I can have a few lines of dialogue with him about a topic that apparently has nothing to do with why I'm here, or what the fuck is going on. Oh and another sane dude, who doesn't want to talk to me...because he doesn't like people. It certainly didn't shed any light on my actions or motivations, to learn he is a member of the warriors of the sunbro faction. It just added more stuff to the pile of "not really explaining anything" I have in front of me.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

@happyninja42

Best to just roll with the weirdness, since it’s pretty much a prerequisite for FROM games. You will certainly not have a tidy explanation for anything but that’s kinda the point.

 

[happyninja42]

@happyninja42

Best to just roll with the weirdness, since it’s pretty much a prerequisite for FROM games. You will certainly not have a tidy explanation for anything but that’s kinda the point.

I honestly don't think I will fat roll with it. I played all of Sekiro twice, which, theoretically would be a more well scripted plot? Seeing as that studio has had multiple games to work out the kinks. And it DOES have more going on, plot wise, than DS. But it's still terribly bare bones. I dunno this just seems to be a trend with souls-like games. I decided to actually try out the genre, mostly after hearing someone say "God of War is based on souls combat mechanics", which surprised me, as it didn't feel anything like souls combat to me, from my prior experience. It sure as hell had a more robust storyline. So I thought "ok let me try some of the off-brands, see if they did things better" and story wise, they are still incredibly limited. But all of them, at this point in my gameplay, have explained WAY more than DS seems compelled to do. So I'm not optimistic about further time invested in the original source material. From what you say, it's basically just "blah blah blah, something something darkness...something something praise the sun....go fight that dude....oh and hehehehehehehe.......rinse....repeat." And....for ME at least, that's not enough investment to make me want to spend hours of my life, fighting your cheesy bosses for no reason other than to say "I beat them." *shrugs*

Also seriously, what the fuck is with the saran wrap clinginess of these corpse after I kill them? The amount of janky corpse physics, super gluing a hollow corpse to my legs while I just try and run past it, is ludicrous on toast. Mother fuckers start flailing their limbs like Kermit the Frog when he's excited, the second I walk near them. I feel like someone who just walked through a spiderweb in the face, and is freaking out. "Get off me !! get...get off!!! stupid corpse!!"

 

[Xprimentyl]

I honestly don't think I will fat roll with it. I played all of Sekiro twice, which, theoretically would be a more well scripted plot? Seeing as that studio has had multiple games to work out the kinks. And it DOES have more going on, plot wise, than DS. But it's still terribly bare bones. I dunno this just seems to be a trend with souls-like games. I decided to actually try out the genre, mostly after hearing someone say "God of War is based on souls combat mechanics", which surprised me, as it didn't feel anything like souls combat to me, from my prior experience. It sure as hell had a more robust storyline. So I thought "ok let me try some of the off-brands, see if they did things better" and story wise, they are still incredibly limited. But all of them, at this point in my gameplay, have explained WAY more than DS seems compelled to do. So I'm not optimistic about further time invested in the original source material. From what you say, it's basically just "blah blah blah, something something darkness...something something praise the sun....go fight that dude....oh and hehehehehehehe.......rinse....repeat." And....for ME at least, that's not enough investment to make me want to spend hours of my life, fighting your cheesy bosses for no reason other than to say "I beat them." *shrugs*

Also seriously, what the fuck is with the saran wrap clinginess of these corpse after I kill them? The amount of janky corpse physics, super gluing a hollow corpse to my legs while I just try and run past it, is ludicrous on toast. Mother fuckers start flailing their limbs like Kermit the Frog when he's excited, the second I walk near them. I feel like someone who just walked through a spiderweb in the face, and is freaking out. "Get off me !! get...get off!!! stupid corpse!!"

I know it's a bit of a copout, but I came to like the Souls games' ambiguity the same as I might a puzzle: yeah, I could just print out the picture on the box, but the bigger part (and point) of it is putting it together yourself, piece by piece. Dark Souls intrigues me because yeah, it's possible to playthrough it once, get to the end and see the credits, but when I know so much was left unanswered/undiscovered in my wake, it pulls me back in for another playthrough, i.e.: take a different path, make different decisions, maybe try to figure out what the NPC I met once was really all about, all to flesh out this world I was basically dumped into without a map that for all it gives me, couldn't care less if I was there or not.

Yes, one might occasionally have to consult resources outside of the game, but is that much different from watching a biopic on someone you're unfamiliar with, enjoying it, then consulting another resources away from the film to fill in/help make sense of the gaps? I know that's not exactly apples to apples, but it get's at the heart of the thing, i.e.: sometimes you don't the whole thing in one sitting.

If you don't like Souls/Souls=like games, that's perfectly fine, but no need to continually scratch your head questioning their appeal to others. They scratch an itch many games simply don't, even with their more fluid and traditional storytelling.

 

[happyninja42]

I know it's a bit of a copout, but I came to like the Souls games' ambiguity the same as I might a puzzle: yeah, I could just print out the picture on the box, but the bigger part (and point) of it is putting it together yourself, piece by piece.

My issue with this analogy, is that with a puzzle, you at least know WHY you are putting the pieces together. "You are trying to put this picture, that we showed you on the front...back together." The souls games don't even really tell you that. At least not in the frame of this analogy.

Yes, one might occasionally have to consult resources outside of the game, but is that much different from watching a biopic on someone you're unfamiliar with, enjoying it, then consulting another resources away from the film to fill in/help make sense of the gaps? I know that's not exactly apples to apples, but it get's at the heart of the thing, i.e.: sometimes you don't the whole thing in one sitting.

If you don't like Souls/Souls=like games, that's perfectly fine, but no need to continually scratch your head questioning their appeal to others. They scratch an itch many games simply don't, even with their more fluid and traditional storytelling.

I don't scratch my head questioning other peoples enjoyment of it, I just don't share it. And I explain WHY I don't share it. Some people like having their face smashed in over and over, so they can finally triumphantly teabag a boss that has been raising their blood pressure for the last 3 days. To them, the opportunity to scream at the monitor "YEAH!! FUCK YOU!! TAKE THAT YOU PIECE OF SHIT!! DIIIEEE!" is the whole point of them playing it. Ok, fine, I don't share that desire from gaming, and personally find that level of thrill from intentionally working yourself up into a frenzy to be troubling but...whatever.

 

[Xprimentyl]

My issue with this analogy, is that with a puzzle, you at least know WHY you are putting the pieces together. "You are trying to put this picture, that we showed you on the front...back together." The souls games don't even really tell you that. At least not in the frame of this analogy.

The not knowing "why" IS the puzzle was my point. Everything has a point and is intertwined, but figuring out how and why IS the puzzle. With a literal puzzle, you know what the picture's supposed to be, but the act of enjoying it is NOT knowing where each piece is at all times or where each goes immediately in the bigger picture; it's about sifting through 1,000 tiny, indiscernible pieces and discovering "A-HA!! There's that little yellow flower I've been searching for for 15 minutes!" as the bigger picture comes together.

Again, could easily be a copout, but what more purely explorative game is there than a Dark Souls? A lot of games want to sell themselves as "an adventure," but 10 minutes in, you've got a map, quest markers, NPCs with big yellow arrows over their heads telling you "I'm important, so stop by so I can tell you how YOU'RE important to a story we're going to unfold through cut-scene exposition and threads of the main quest as opposed to you figuring anything out!" Maybe Minecraft? I played that game for a couple of months before I decided it might be more than a "fuck-around" simulator and learned it had it's own "quests" and endgame outside of how "high can I build" or "how deep can I dig." Maybe the recent spate of survival games like "Don't Starve," "Subnautica" or procedurally generated games which intentionally change each iteration to offer a new adventure to a seasoned player? Those I don't get into, because my crippling fear of failure can't come to terms with a game that exists FOR me to fail (/s, a little bit.)

I don't scratch my head questioning other peoples enjoyment of it, I just don't share it. And I explain WHY I don't share it. Some people like having their face smashed in over and over, so they can finally triumphantly teabag a boss that has been raising their blood pressure for the last 3 days. To them, the opportunity to scream at the monitor "YEAH!! FUCK YOU!! TAKE THAT YOU PIECE OF SHIT!! DIIIEEE!" is the whole point of them playing it. Ok, fine, I don't share that desire from gaming, and personally find that level of thrill from intentionally working yourself up into a frenzy to be troubling but...whatever.

Understood, but it seems you've recently tried to figure out the enjoyment you don't share only to find, surprisingly, that you still don't necessarily share it. In my case, I hate RTSs. I've played exactly one from beginning to end ("Halo Wars" because I was a [then] shameless Halo fanboy who couldn't live knowing there existed a Halo game I hadn't played.) Y'know what? I wasn't mad or confused as to why I didn't enjoy myself. I chalked it up as my knowing exactly what I liked and exactly what I was walking into; my fault.

Not coming down on you, friend; just know that at this point, most likely including this wall of text, you probably won't ever be satisfied with any answer anyone gives you contrary to how you feel about Souls and Souls-likes.

 

[happyninja42]

Understood, but it seems you've recently tried to figure out the enjoyment you don't share only to find, surprisingly, that you still don't necessarily share it. In my case, I hate RTSs. I've played exactly one from beginning to end ("Halo Wars" because I was a [then] shameless Halo fanboy who couldn't live knowing there existed a Halo game I hadn't played.) Y'know what? I wasn't mad or confused as to why I didn't enjoy myself. I chalked it up as my knowing exactly what I liked and exactly what I was walking into; my fault.

Not coming down on you, friend; just know that at this point, most likely including this wall of text, you probably won't ever be satisfied with any answer anyone gives you contrary to how you feel about Souls and Souls-likes.

I'm never asking any of you to actually explain things. Well, that's not entirely true, I mean if I say something like "Ok so why does X happen when I press the roll button" that's an objective issue with an objective result. "It's because your Encumbrance is too high, thus you are fat rolling" When I say things like "Why in the fuck would you include a player choice option, that isn't actually an option, and then deny the player the choice, only to make them arbitrarily make that choice in the narrative anyway?" I don't actually expect YOU, Xprimentyl to answer the question. You didn't make the game. I'm expressing my issue with the specific point in question, in the form of a question. I guess in some weird variant of the socratic method maybe? *shrugs* I know the reason why they did it. Because they have a poorly designed narrative system, with a team that clearly doesn't put much time/effort into that aspect of the game. But by framing it as a question, to me at least, it seems to highlight the flaw. Because then someone will, mentally, try and construct an answer for it, and likely realize "ok yeah that's a lame answer...maybe that isn't a good element in the game."

I'm basically framing my criticisms, in the way that my brain comes up on them. I generally ask myself why they did the thing they did. In what way did it improve the game? Does this make any sense in the context of the world, or is this some weird artifact of it being a video game? Like the "we're not actually going to let you have a choice" example I've cited from Sekiro. There are plenty of examples in other games, of things like this happening. It's almost always when the game makes a point to break the 4th wall, and is using the hijacking of the system interface, to mess with the player, or illustrate a point. Like in Doki Doki Literature Club, when Monica makes it very hard to pick anything other than Monica at one point. Or in MGS 2, when the game tricks you into thinking you're dead, and does the "you just died music" and shrinks the image down to the corner, giving you You Died screen...but the game is actually still going. And now you have to fight in a tiny window, because the game doesn't want you to beat it. In both of those, there is a REASON for making a choice like that. But in Sekiro, it serves no purpose. The game isn't about 4th wall, or the meta-narrative of gamers and their digital worlds, it's just a fuedal japan ninja story with magic, like a million other such stories. So then the point of having such a thing, just becomes pointless. It doesn't serve the narrative, it doesn't provide any context to anything about the situation, and doesn't do anything other than annoy me, the player, wondering why the fuck it's even an option. ESPECIALLY when the game just lets Wolf agree to do that choice anyway, after 1 single line of dialogue that apparently changed his mind about such a fundamental part of his code. But the line is just a repeating of what Kuro said before. So it's not like it's NEW information. So....why? Why have it there? How does it improve the game? Again, I'm not asking YOU to answer it, I'm just pointing it out as a question.

And that's all I really have with DS so far, and most of their clones, though the clones seem to put more effort into at least giving sufficient framework as to why I'm doing any of this. They still leave plenty as mystery to uncover, but when I don't even know why I'm here, or why I should bother ringing a fucking bell, other than they told me I should, well, I just have questions. And I don't really have much desire to slog through their game to find out those answers, especially when told "yeah they don't really go into much at all anyway." Clearly my questions are unlikely to be answered. So, I'll go play something else.

I get that people like these games, but I don't share the appeal. I'm not asking you to try and sell me on it.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I'm never asking any of you to actually explain things. Well, that's not entirely true, I mean if I say something like "Ok so why does X happen when I press the roll button" that's an objective issue with an objective result. "It's because your Encumbrance is too high, thus you are fat rolling" When I say things like "Why in the fuck would you include a player choice option, that isn't actually an option, and then deny the player the choice, only to make them arbitrarily make that choice in the narrative anyway?" I don't actually expect YOU, Xprimentyl to answer the question. You didn't make the game. I'm expressing my issue with the specific point in question, in the form of a question. I guess in some weird variant of the socratic method maybe? *shrugs* I know the reason why they did it. Because they have a poorly designed narrative system, with a team that clearly doesn't put much time/effort into that aspect of the game. But by framing it as a question, to me at least, it seems to highlight the flaw. Because then someone will, mentally, try and construct an answer for it, and likely realize "ok yeah that's a lame answer...maybe that isn't a good element in the game."

I'm basically framing my criticisms, in the way that my brain comes up on them. I generally ask myself why they did the thing they did. In what way did it improve the game? Does this make any sense in the context of the world, or is this some weird artifact of it being a video game? Like the "we're not actually going to let you have a choice" example I've cited from Sekiro. There are plenty of examples in other games, of things like this happening. It's almost always when the game makes a point to break the 4th wall, and is using the hijacking of the system interface, to mess with the player, or illustrate a point. Like in Doki Doki Literature Club, when Monica makes it very hard to pick anything other than Monica at one point. Or in MGS 2, when the game tricks you into thinking you're dead, and does the "you just died music" and shrinks the image down to the corner, giving you You Died screen...but the game is actually still going. And now you have to fight in a tiny window, because the game doesn't want you to beat it. In both of those, there is a REASON for making a choice like that. But in Sekiro, it serves no purpose. The game isn't about 4th wall, or the meta-narrative of gamers and their digital worlds, it's just a fuedal japan ninja story with magic, like a million other such stories. So then the point of having such a thing, just becomes pointless. It doesn't serve the narrative, it doesn't provide any context to anything about the situation, and doesn't do anything other than annoy me, the player, wondering why the fuck it's even an option. ESPECIALLY when the game just lets Wolf agree to do that choice anyway, after 1 single line of dialogue that apparently changed his mind about such a fundamental part of his code. But the line is just a repeating of what Kuro said before. So it's not like it's NEW information. So....why? Why have it there? How does it improve the game? Again, I'm not asking YOU to answer it, I'm just pointing it out as a question.

And that's all I really have with DS so far, and most of their clones, though the clones seem to put more effort into at least giving sufficient framework as to why I'm doing any of this. They still leave plenty as mystery to uncover, but when I don't even know why I'm here, or why I should bother ringing a fucking bell, other than they told me I should, well, I just have questions. And I don't really have much desire to slog through their game to find out those answers, especially when told "yeah they don't really go into much at all anyway." Clearly my questions are unlikely to be answered. So, I'll go play something else.

I get that people like these games, but I don't share the appeal. I'm not asking you to try and sell me on it.

Won't refute anything you've said save to say asking your ostensibly rhetorical questions in forums meant for discussions, you're inexorably going to get answers! I don't expect my "answers" to sway your opinion; I've qualified many of them as I see them as easily perceived as "copouts" from a shameless shill; that may be, but your issues are genuinely things I like about Souls games. Just saying, you're dipping your toes in the water and asking out loud why the water is wet in the company of a lot of people who're treading water in the deep end of the pool!

 

[NerfedFalcon]

It means that you are forcing your audience to outsource their information to YT, and other sources, and basically spend time NOT playing your game, to understand your game. *shrugs* I don't consider that a good storytelling model. You don't have to explain everything, but when you explain nothing, you can't really complain when people criticize you for not having a story structure. Because you don't. Just pointing in a direction and say "Go kill shit in that direction." Isn't a really compelling motivation for anyone aside from Sir Lancelot in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Except... that isn't really the case at all. Just because there are videos explaining one guy's very detailed interpretation of the lore on Youtube, that you're directed to whenever you say that certain things don't make sense or that there's no story, doesn't mean the book's closed on interpretation. You're meant to think about everything you read, everything you're told, and in some places everything you see, and what you pick up where. Then you're meant to draw your own conclusions about what happened, and whether it was for the better or not. You might even end up disagreeing with Vaati, and that's not a problem - that's actually a good thing, since it means there's the depth of story and analysis available to have differing opinions.

To be totally honest, as far as I can tell, the only person here playing it solely as a boss rush game is you.

 

[happyninja42]

Won't refute anything you've said save to say asking your ostensibly rhetorical questions in forums meant for discussions, you're inexorably going to get answers! I don't expect my "answers" to sway your opinion; I've qualified many of them as I see them as easily perceived as "copouts" from a shameless shill; that may be, but your issues are genuinely things I like about Souls games. Just saying, you're dipping your toes in the water and asking out loud why the water is wet in the company of a lot of people who're treading water in the deep end of the pool!

yes but, my point is mostly, to use this water/swimming analogy:

I keep hearing this horde of people screaming at the top of their lungs about how awesome the pool they're swimming in is. But then I try it out and I'm like "yeah but, it's got a lot of piss in it, and there's sharks that bite you guys. and the waves come up periodically and drown some of you. and it's all orchestrated by some guy who just put the pool here without any reason for it, left it on it's own for maintenance and cleaning, and just said figure it out. It's smelly, dirty, and crowded, and yet you all are like Yeah But That's Why We Like It!" And won't shut up about how it's best swimming experience there ever is, and anyone that doesn't swim in it the way you do, are douchebag newb baby swimmers, and every other pool is compared to this swimming pool, even when there isn't any real reason to compare them. And anyone that says "hey so, maybe your pool isn't as awesome as you think? specifically for some of the things I mentioned, that you apparently agree with? And maybe more people might like this pool if...I don't know, they could use rafts or goggles, or snorkles, instead of just everyone being forced to tread water in the deep end" They are told they just don't get it. And need to just Swum Gud, and they're baby swimmers, who don't deserve to enjoy swimming, and basically all the other elitist responses that have come up for years.

I'm not asking you to get out of your pool, but maybe just don't always compare every swimming pool to THAT pool, and criticize anyone that isn't too keen on swimming in the same junk you are, especially if you are agreeing the junk is in your pool.

The plural you mind you, not you specifically.

Anyway, that's really all I have to say on the matter. I think I've made my thoughts as clear as I can at this point. Not going to clutter the thread up with anymore of this.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

My issue with this analogy, is that with a puzzle, you at least know WHY you are putting the pieces together. "You are trying to put this picture, that we showed you on the front...back together." The souls games don't even really tell you that. At least not in the frame of this analogy.


I don't scratch my head questioning other peoples enjoyment of it, I just don't share it. And I explain WHY I don't share it. Some people like having their face smashed in over and over, so they can finally triumphantly teabag a boss that has been raising their blood pressure for the last 3 days. To them, the opportunity to scream at the monitor "YEAH!! FUCK YOU!! TAKE THAT YOU PIECE OF SHIT!! DIIIEEE!" is the whole point of them playing it. Ok, fine, I don't share that desire from gaming, and personally find that level of thrill from intentionally working yourself up into a frenzy to be troubling but...whatever.

To me it kinda sounds like you’re projecting an exaggerated amount of that onto the games and players based primarily on the marketing bs regarding the difficulty, and misdirected zealousness of fools who latched onto it while lacking an introspective ability to appreciate much of anything beyond that. If all they take away from the games are “Hell yeah, bash your head against a wall tough!” then they’re leaving a lot on the table.

For starters (and there is no shortage of stuff like this out there) -

If you don’t see it, or get how anyone could, then it’s probably just not your jam. No need to be derisive about it.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I'm never asking any of you to actually explain things. Well, that's not entirely true, I mean if I say something like "Ok so why does X happen when I press the roll button" that's an objective issue with an objective result. "It's because your Encumbrance is too high, thus you are fat rolling" When I say things like "Why in the fuck would you include a player choice option, that isn't actually an option, and then deny the player the choice, only to make them arbitrarily make that choice in the narrative anyway?" I don't actually expect YOU, Xprimentyl to answer the question. You didn't make the game. I'm expressing my issue with the specific point in question, in the form of a question. I guess in some weird variant of the socratic method maybe? *shrugs* I know the reason why they did it. Because they have a poorly designed narrative system, with a team that clearly doesn't put much time/effort into that aspect of the game. But by framing it as a question, to me at least, it seems to highlight the flaw. Because then someone will, mentally, try and construct an answer for it, and likely realize "ok yeah that's a lame answer...maybe that isn't a good element in the game."

I'm basically framing my criticisms, in the way that my brain comes up on them. I generally ask myself why they did the thing they did. In what way did it improve the game? Does this make any sense in the context of the world, or is this some weird artifact of it being a video game? Like the "we're not actually going to let you have a choice" example I've cited from Sekiro. There are plenty of examples in other games, of things like this happening. It's almost always when the game makes a point to break the 4th wall, and is using the hijacking of the system interface, to mess with the player, or illustrate a point. Like in Doki Doki Literature Club, when Monica makes it very hard to pick anything other than Monica at one point. Or in MGS 2, when the game tricks you into thinking you're dead, and does the "you just died music" and shrinks the image down to the corner, giving you You Died screen...but the game is actually still going. And now you have to fight in a tiny window, because the game doesn't want you to beat it. In both of those, there is a REASON for making a choice like that. But in Sekiro, it serves no purpose. The game isn't about 4th wall, or the meta-narrative of gamers and their digital worlds, it's just a fuedal japan ninja story with magic, like a million other such stories. So then the point of having such a thing, just becomes pointless. It doesn't serve the narrative, it doesn't provide any context to anything about the situation, and doesn't do anything other than annoy me, the player, wondering why the fuck it's even an option. ESPECIALLY when the game just lets Wolf agree to do that choice anyway, after 1 single line of dialogue that apparently changed his mind about such a fundamental part of his code. But the line is just a repeating of what Kuro said before. So it's not like it's NEW information. So....why? Why have it there? How does it improve the game?

Guessing this is what you’re referring to -

• When speaking to Kuro after beating Genichiro:
  • Sekiro: I have come for you, my lord.
    Kuro: Yes. You did well to come here.
    Sekiro: Let us go. We must leave Ashina.
    Kuro: ...Wolf. My blood... the blood of the dragon causes men to become undying. The same goes for you.
    Sekiro: ... Yes, my lord.
    Kuro: I wished to save you. I'm sure that I would do the same thing given another chance. However... Undying begets stagnation. The Immortal Oath, the Rejuvenating Waters, the Dragonrot. They all corrupt men to the point that they no longer live as men. I wish to sever the chains of stagnation bred by the Dragon's Heritage. Wolf, will you help me achieve this aim?
• When Sekiro initially chooses (Help Kuro):
  • Sekiro: Father... (I cannot break the Iron Code.)
• When Sekiro chooses to (Obey the Iron Code, protect Kuro):
  • Sekiro: I cannot. To protect you, the Divine Heir... That was the duty my father entrusted to me.
    Kuro: How many times have you died and come back for my sake...? Two? Three times...? Or perhaps a number so large that it cannot be counted?
    Sekiro: As it was for the duty of defending my Lord, the number does not matter.
    Kuro: I do not wish to bind you to an eternity of undeath. Wolf... Join me in my quest to sever the ties of immortality.
    Sekiro: ... As you wish.
    Kuro: Thank you, Loyal Wolf.

• • 
    
    
    
    It’s meant to be a false choice to emphasize the iron code, but also more importantly to set up a choice later in the game that really does matter.
    
    Discussed in greater detail here and here. Unfortunately the English voiceover doesn’t do it any favors though either, but that’s not surprising.

 

[Dalisclock]

Since I'm done with LoZ: Breath of the Wild(well, aside from some exploration stuff....), I decided to keep the train rolling and play Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity. I'd say spoilers but I literally played the first mission so it would only be spoilery to you if you wanted to go in completely blind and literally paid no attention to the premise.

The game doesn't pull punch's to start out with. It basically starts out with that scene from the last memory of BOTW where Ganon has returned and the guardians rampaging in "kill all humans" mode, Link has been grievously injured and Zelda finally unlocks her magic because the power of emotional trauma(I think). A cute little guardian zelda was keeping in her room at the castle activates, a time portal opens and the little thing gets sucked back in time to some period before Ganon shows up(unclear right now how long before but Link doesn't seem to know Zelda yet, doesn't have the Master Sword and Link seemed to be just a common soldier so presumably this is before all of the memories in BOTW). Upon arrival it activates the towers and presumably sets the stage for everyone to get a hint that something bad is coming down the pipe sooner then they imagine. Also it really reminds me of the premise from the Terminator, where the side that's about to lose sends a robot back to undo that defeat(in this case, apparently purely by accident).

The gameplay is, from what I'm informed Is basically Dynasty Warriors but in the Zelda Universe so much of the first battle was me figuring out what the hell I was doing and arguably does a decent job of that. It's hacky slashy in kind of a RTS-lite sort of way and link soon gets access to new abilities(the ability to use bombs and cyronsis) because the shiekah slate gets turned on. It also introduces switching between characters(in this case a much younger impa), ordering the non-used character to move to a certain location(presumably to support or be ready to jump in and running around more linear/closed version of the maps from the original game(in this case, Hyrule field but before everything was ruined). There's also kind of a strategy layer to it outside the battles, it seems like, where you can invest resources found on the maps to get upgrades for your characters, as well as equip found weapons and such.

I'm still getting the hang of it but so far it's fun, and watching link/impa cut through monsters like a hot knife slicing butter feels somewhat cathartic, I'm not gonna lie. I did kind of fumble fuck my way through the first battle but did okay so just need to learn how to do this properly. I also kind of like seeing the world before everything had been completely ruined and gone to shit, like realized the area where central tower rose up used to be a lot more built up then it is in BOTW. Other then that, not much to say so far. Look forward to seeing where they take this.

 

[happyninja42]

Since I'm done with LoZ: Breath of the Wild(well, aside from some exploration stuff....), I decided to keep the train rolling and play Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity. I'd say spoilers but I literally played the first mission so it would only be spoilery to you if you wanted to go in completely blind and literally paid no attention to the premise.

The game doesn't pull punch's to start out with. It basically starts out with that scene from the last memory of BOTW where Ganon has returned and the guardians rampaging in "kill all humans" mode, Link has been grievously injured and Zelda finally unlocks her magic because the power of emotional trauma(I think). A cute little guardian zelda was keeping in her room at the castle activates, a time portal opens and the little thing gets sucked back in time to some period before Ganon shows up(unclear right now how long before but Link doesn't seem to know Zelda yet, doesn't have the Master Sword and Link seemed to be just a common soldier so presumably this is before all of the memories in BOTW). Upon arrival it activates the towers and presumably sets the stage for everyone to get a hint that something bad is coming down the pipe sooner then they imagine. Also it really reminds me of the premise from the Terminator, where the side that's about to lose sends a robot back to undo that defeat(in this case, apparently purely by accident).

I loved that opening bit. I dunno what it is, but I have a soft spot for stories where all the big badasses get their butt's kicked, and the little sidekick, comic relief character, is now tasked with Serious Business, and they step up to try and save the day. I didn't get the impression it was an accident, so much as just a literal last ditch effort by Zelda, to try and stop the Calamity. And to see that little droid pop up, chirping like R2D2, and just running like a bat out of hell for that portal before it all blows up behind him, literally the last hope for the forces of light. Yeah...that's one of the most effective ways to suck me into your narrative.

As to the rest of the game. The combat is pretty easy to get the hang of. The first few fights will just be a learning curve, but it's not very steep at all. If you are playing solo, I would suggest trying to always be aware of your other champions, and deploying them tactically. As there are times where the mission will block you off, or isolate one champion off, and then put a timer on you getting to the next objective. You then have to switch to the new champion, so having them positioned ahead of time, can make things a lot easier.

 

[happyninja42]

The gameplay is, from what I'm informed Is basically Dynasty Warriors but in the Zelda Universe so much of the first battle was me figuring out what the hell I was doing and arguably does a decent job of that. It's hacky slashy in kind of a RTS-lite sort of way and link soon gets access to new abilities(the ability to use bombs and cyronsis) because the shiekah slate gets turned on. It also introduces switching between characters(in this case a much younger impa), ordering the non-used character to move to a certain location(presumably to support or be ready to jump in and running around more linear/closed version of the maps from the original game(in this case, Hyrule field but before everything was ruined). There's also kind of a strategy layer to it outside the battles, it seems like, where you can invest resources found on the maps to get upgrades for your characters, as well as equip found weapons and such.

I'm still getting the hang of it but so far it's fun, and watching link/impa cut through monsters like a hot knife slicing butter feels somewhat cathartic, I'm not gonna lie. I did kind of fumble fuck my way through the first battle but did okay so just need to learn how to do this properly. I also kind of like seeing the world before everything had been completely ruined and gone to shit, like realized the area where central tower rose up used to be a lot more built up then it is in BOTW. Other then that, not much to say so far. Look forward to seeing where they take this.

Yes it's VERY fun and cathartic, when you get to the point where you can just cleave through ranks of dudes at a time. My favorite is one of the 4 Champions, Urbosa. Her lightning based, whirling dervish combat style just made me so happy. If I could pair her off with Cole McGrath, and just make them breed a little army of lightning babies of awesomeness, it would be fantastic. All of the champions are pretty fun, though I didn't like the bird guys very much, their combat style just didn't gel with me at all.

But yeah, super fun combat game, the story is fun, and had a lot of heart to it as you progress it. And the little droid is just so much fun for me.

 

[BrawlMan]

All of the champions are pretty fun, though I didn't like the bird guys very much, their combat style just didn't gel with me at all.

I find the grayish white bird is more fun than the Navy blue bird. He's got way more interesting, and game breaking mechanics, by comparison. Neither are my favorite too. That goes to the other characters.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I’ve gotten too invested in MGSV to leave it hanging, but damn if these side ops aren’t tedious. I just hit 70% complete and have like 44 more to go I think. It’s kinda like Groundhog Day scenarios of several highly repetitive mission types in two very samey maps, only saved by the fact you can use a plethora of the gear you’ve developed to complete them without risk of penalty like S ranks. Ultimately as far as the missions themselves though I’d literally rather be hunting flowers and birds for the exotics quests in RDR2 again, and that was arduous enough in itself.

After the side ops, I have roughly half the story missions left to S rank, but thankfully I’ve already nabbed all but I think two of chapter 2’s. Then there are the animal extractions, which I’m about half way through. Finally, the mission tasks I’ll save for last, as they seem to be a comprehensive aspect of one’s experience with the game; certainly more varied and therefore hopefully more engaging than all the other busy work.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Finished Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. It was ok. The gameplay was fun, but the writing is pretty weak. It's not very interesting or funny and the world feels dead. It's nice when you can go back to characters you've already spoken to in an RPG and get some new dialogue later in the story, makes the world and characters feel alive, there's none of that here. Even when you solve one of the major problems affecting Toad Town barely anybody even takes notice. This is one of the major reasons that M&L has always been inferior to the early Paper Mario games. It was kind of fun playing as Bowser, which is always a highlight of any game where it happens, but because of the writing it wasn't as memorable as when it happens in, say, TTYD, despite there being a lot more of it. You can go to most areas as Bowser first and then M&L second if you want to go look for secrets, which I usually didn't do because going through each area twice is kind of a slog and was giving me DK64 flashbacks.

I didn't need to grind at all or even spend any money because the game is fairly easy on the whole. I ended with over 120k in the bank and only spent 3000 coins on two new badges for a double damage super move early on. I beat the final boss at level 27 and also all the optional challenge bosses except the final boss rush challenge, because screw that. I got an item from completing the jumping minigame with an A rank that let Luigi do double damage but also die in one hit, then I gave him all my power beans and power boosting items. He could kill most bosses in a turn or two after that using the right special moves.

As for how it ranks up against the other M&L games I've played, I like it a lot more than Partners in Time, but I still think Superstar Saga is slightly better.

 

[Dalisclock]

I’ve gotten too invested in MGSV to leave it hanging, but damn if these side ops aren’t tedious. I just hit 70% complete and have like 44 more to go I think. It’s kinda like Groundhog Day scenarios of several highly repetitive mission types in two very samey maps, only saved by the fact you can use a plethora of the gear you’ve developed to complete them without risk of penalty like S ranks. Ultimately as far as the missions themselves though I’d literally rather be hunting flowers and birds for the exotics quests in RDR2 again, and that was arduous enough in itself.

After the side ops, I have roughly half the story missions left to S rank, but thankfully I’ve already nabbed all but I think two of chapter 2’s. Then there are the animal extractions, which I’m about half way through. Finally, the mission tasks I’ll save for last, as they seem to be a comprehensive aspect of one’s experience with the game; certainly more varied and therefore hopefully more engaging than all the other busy work.

Apparently you have to play most missions like 3 times to get the most out of them and the best way to S-rank them is to basically rush the shit out of them because it's based mostly on time completed. .

I also feel compelled to drop this here since you're talking about 100% MGSV.