Texas v abortion

tstorm823

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The real distinction between life and death really relates to "personhood". And personhood in large part relates to what we could maybe call sapience. You can legally stomp an ant to death but not a dog: the difference is essentially that of the mental capabilities of dogs and ants; and humans with greater cognitive capability merit more protection than dogs. What has minimal capacity to think, (feel), etc. merits relatively little inherent protection, because by being extinguished it has so little to suffer or comphrehend as loss. It is similar logic by which we switch off the life support of the brain dead.

A fetus under 24 weeks cannot think or feel. It literally does not have the nervous system development to do either. It is a bundle of cells that cannot comprehend its own existence, destruction or loss of potential, nor can it suffer. In this sense it is lesser than an ant, never mind a dog. It has no interaction with society: no achievements, no legacy, no personal bonds, and so society has no compelling justification to interfere in the decisions and autonomy of the one person a fetus does affect considerably: the host mother.
And when I suggest that the current framework of abortion legality is based on unscientific (basically religions) claims, this is the sort of thing I'm referring to. "Well, we've defined this abstract concept of personhood detached from actual humanity that we will only ever bring up for fetuses and dolphins, and that's why abortion should be legal." You really are taking a pseudo-religious stance here, making a metaphysical claim that you personally believe to be self-evident.

If I were to make my counter claim against you, something I feel simply to be self-evident, any definition of "personhood" which is detached from the actual humanity of the person is a shallow excuse for bigotry or murder.
 

Agema

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And when I suggest that the current framework of abortion legality is based on unscientific (basically religions) claims, this is the sort of thing I'm referring to. "Well, we've defined this abstract concept of personhood detached from actual humanity that we will only ever bring up for fetuses and dolphins, and that's why abortion should be legal." You really are taking a pseudo-religious stance here, making a metaphysical claim that you personally believe to be self-evident.

If I were to make my counter claim against you, something I feel simply to be self-evident, any definition of "personhood" which is detached from the actual humanity of the person is a shallow excuse for bigotry or murder.
Your argument here is scientism: the mistaken attempt to explain with science what is outside the remit of science.

This is philosophy: ethics. As David Hume noted via the is-ought problem, you cannot objectively prove morality, and all those who have tried (like pseudophilosopher Ayn Rand) have failed miserably. Science provides knowledge that can inform an ethical position, but it does not prove ethics.

The definition of personhood is philosophical and legal, a social construction. Science cannot "prove" what a person is: there is no measurable matter or energy to constitute personhood that natural sciences can recognise it as an independent phenomenon. It is what we say it is. But nor is it entirely arbitrary, because it fits in a wider scheme of our understanding of people, things, and their interrelationships - some of which science does contribute to. The notion that something is a human because it has a soul, for instance, is something that must fall flat on its face in terms of science.

The dominant definition of "personhood" relates to the idea of a being capable of independent, intentional action - often with a notion of moral action. If you want to define a human as an object made of human cells with human DNA, science can prove whether something is or not. But if your hand is chopped off, why is that not now an independent human being? It is after all made of of living human cells with human DNA, which are capable of continuing to reproduce and working with each other to create functioning tissues. Should we not call every single petri dish of HeLa cells worldwide persons, and give them the right to vote? Say intelligent aliens came to earth and said "Hello, we come as friends", should we just kill them with impunity because they aren't human therefore cannot qualify as having any recognisable rights?

So science can step in here to provide answers... does that thing have the capacity for action that makes what we take to be a person? If no, it's not a person, and it does not require the rights of a person. As already pointed out, it is that degree of capability for independent action which I was getting at when I mentioned sapience, earlier. A dog thinks and feels and has volition, although below that of a human. An ant thinks and feels in a way, but quite likely does not have anything we could meaningfully call volition, more being a simple, programmed bunch of cells. And thus it is we constructed an entire hierarchy of rights, all of which effectively derive from a consistent concept.

And so we place fetuses in that hierarchy, and (early enough) they do not really warrant protection any more than a petri dish of HeLa cells does. They certainly do not merit priority over the mother, who most certainly is a person capable of independent action - and with rights of bodily integrity as also agreed in our great, big, societal ethical framework. You can smash a great, big hole in that consistent ethical framework if you really want - such is the way of socially constructed things, but we have words for egregious double standards and exceptions, such as: "injustice".
 
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tstorm823

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If no, it's not a person, and it does not require the rights of a person.
But we don't speak of the rights of people. We speak of human rights. You are sidestepping the established framework of rights for essentially just this issue. The brain dead person does not lack rights or protections we have, as conscious people can be pulled off life support all the same while you can't stand a braindead person in the heart without it being murder. Animals have the rights we confer to them voluntarily, but not human rights. A piece of an organism does not always constitute an organism, a hand can be human but is not a human. None of those things are exceptions to the system of human rights we know and love. Only abortion is.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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But we don't speak of the rights of people. We speak of human rights. You are sidestepping the established framework of rights for essentially just this issue. The brain dead person does not lack rights or protections we have, as conscious people can be pulled off life support all the same while you can't stand a braindead person in the heart without it being murder.
How is starving a brain dead person to death different than stabbing a brain dead person to death, honest question

If they're dead, they're dead. If they're not dead, they're not dead.
 

tstorm823

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So your claim is that there is a measurable difference between humans and people? Christ almighty, dude....
No, that's nobody's claim. My claim is that there isn't a difference between the two. Agema's claim is that there is a definitional (though not measurable per se) difference between the two.
How is starving a brain dead person to death different than stabbing a brain dead person to death, honest question

If they're dead, they're dead. If they're not dead, they're not dead.
How is not keeping the brain dead person from starving different from not keeping anyone else from starving? Why are you or I not morally culpable for every person on Earth that starves to death? Actively killing someone is not the same thing as failing to keep them alive.
 

Buyetyen

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No, that's nobody's claim. My claim is that there isn't a difference between the two. Agema's claim is that there is a definitional (though not measurable per se) difference between the two.
So it's nobody's claim, and somehow it is also the claim made by a person you disagree with.
 

Agema

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But we don't speak of the rights of people. We speak of human rights.
That is a semantic argument. It's essentially trying to say that the "human" in "human rights" is precisely the right definition of "human" that happens to include fetuses. But the adjective "human" actually means lots of different things. As a simple example, we could say "human psychology". But fetuses under 24 weeks can't think so don't have psychology. So clearly human in that context does not apply to fetuses.

If I can guide you here, the case you need to make is why fetuses merit the same protections as born humans, not semantic chicanery. You're getting towards some of this by drawing a distinction between parts of a human and human organisms.

You are sidestepping the established framework of rights for essentially just this issue. The brain dead person does not lack rights or protections we have,
They most certainly do lack some rights and protections most people do, right up to us killing them by switching off the life support.

as conscious people can be pulled off life support all the same
This is dubious argument, but rather than tackle that I'll just point out that it is a double-edged argument. If you're saying we can kill conscious people, then why can't we kill fetuses?
 

tstorm823

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That is a semantic argument. It's essentially trying to say that the "human" in "human rights" is precisely the right definition of "human" that happens to include fetuses. But the adjective "human" actually means lots of different things. As a simple example, we could say "human psychology". But fetuses under 24 weeks can't think so don't have psychology. So clearly human in that context does not apply to fetuses.

If I can guide you here, the case you need to make is why fetuses merit the same protections as born humans, not semantic chicanery. You're getting towards some of this by drawing a distinction between parts of a human and human organisms.
It's not a semantic argument in every language:

English: Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Spanish: Declaración Universal de Derechos Humanos
Humanos is a noun for humans. It is not an adjective, you don't pluralize adjectives. They did not translate it to gente or pueblo, it is definitely humans rather than people. Humanos, noun, dramatically less ambiguity.
This is dubious argument, but rather than tackle that I'll just point out that it is a double-edged argument. If you're saying we can kill conscious people, then why can't we kill fetuses?
We can't kill conscious or unconscious people, is the idea of it. Removing your positive effect in another person's existence is not morally or legally equivalent to adding a negative effect. Not putting out a fire is not the same as lighting it. Allowing someone to die is not the same as killing them. You can reasonably debate the philosophy of that, but that is the status quo we live within and is a status quo I'm willing to defend.
So it's nobody's claim, and somehow it is also the claim made by a person you disagree with.
No. It is nobody's claim.
 

Seanchaidh

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It's not a semantic argument in every language:

English: Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Spanish: Declaración Universal de Derechos Humanos
Humanos is a noun for humans. It is not an adjective, you don't pluralize adjectives. They did not translate it to gente or pueblo, it is definitely humans rather than people. Humanos, noun, dramatically less ambiguity.
oh my fucking god who the hell cares?
 

Seanchaidh

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Are you envious of an actual discussion?
what actual discussion? literally just definitional crap. all you'd be proving is that some people have historically phrased their moral declarations in certain ways in certain contexts. which is to say that actually it is a semantic argument in every language. So you're not only not even wrong, you're also wrong on top of not even being wrong.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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How is not keeping the brain dead person from starving different from not keeping anyone else from starving?
Fantastic question that I don't tend to get ethically satisfactory answers to
Why are you or I not morally culpable for every person on Earth that starves to death? Actively killing someone is not the same thing as failing to keep them alive.
So if a fetus were removed intact and subsequently died on its own, that would be fine? Why not? All we're doing is failing to keep them alive
 

tstorm823

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So if a fetus were removed intact and subsequently died on its own, that would be fine? Why not? All we're doing is failing to keep them alive
That happens in emergency situations regularly, and is legally distinct from abortion. That being said, a large part of the measure of an action is the intent. If you take an action with the intent of killing the fetus, it's not a passive consequence when that fetus dies.

I have on occasion gladly characterized myself as anti-choice. That is how we treat all instances of life and death. People dying is not a crime the vast majority of the time, what makes a death a crime is when another person's choice made that death happen when it otherwise wouldn't have. You're not allowed in any other circumstance to choose someone dying when nobody dying is an available option. Choice really is the issue.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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That happens in emergency situations regularly, and is legally distinct from abortion. That being said, a large part of the measure of an action is the intent. If you take an action with the intent of killing the fetus, it's not a passive consequence when that fetus dies.

I have on occasion gladly characterized myself as anti-choice. That is how we treat all instances of life and death. People dying is not a crime the vast majority of the time, what makes a death a crime is when another person's choice made that death happen when it otherwise wouldn't have. You're not allowed in any other circumstance to choose someone dying when nobody dying is an available option. Choice really is the issue.
Lmao, then explain how starving a brain-dead person to death is fine when we can keep them alive indefinitely.

We don't want to kill the fetus, we want the pregnant person to be not-pregnant. It just so happens that these are mutually exclusive goals
 

tstorm823

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Lmao, then explain how starving a brain-dead person to death is fine when we can keep them alive indefinitely.

We don't want to kill the fetus, we want the pregnant person to be not-pregnant. It just so happens that these are mutually exclusive goals
We cannot keep them alive indefinitely.
Those aren't mutually exclusive goals because birth exists.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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We cannot keep them alive indefinitely.
Can do it for literal decades
Those aren't mutually exclusive goals because birth exists.
Which dehumanizes the pregnant person down to a piece of medical equipment, yes. That's the problem actually: forcing somebody to radically alter their own body to save somebody else, something we only see fit to do in the case of pregnant people because we rightly see things like organ harvesting as monstrous.
 

tstorm823

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Can do it for literal decades

Which dehumanizes the pregnant person down to a piece of medical equipment, yes. That's the problem actually: forcing somebody to radically alter their own body to save somebody else, something we only see fit to do in the case of pregnant people because we rightly see things like organ harvesting as monstrous.
Time radically alters your body whether you are pregnant or not. You are delusional to think you can stop that through homicide.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Time radically alters your body whether you are pregnant or not. You are delusional to think you can stop that through homicide.
You only need one kidney to live, and we might as well take a chunk of your liver and scrape some bone marrow too. We can save lives like that, why you being stingy?

After all, time is gonna radically alter your body anyway
 
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