The Last Jedi, The Rise of Skywalker, and What It Means to Be a Good Sequel

[Agema]

Another reason I don’t like the film is how they made The First Order seemingly be able to conquer the whole galaxy off screen. Sure they explained it in expanded media, but it feels like lazy writing in trying to make these guys look stronger without trying.

It's an appalling contrivance - again, poor storytelling from JJ.

So keen is JJ to recreate Star Wars (A New Hope), he has to magic up an excuse for a small force of plucky underdogs against a galaxy-dominating power - so the Galactic Republic is a problem that needs to be eliminated. Literally. The existence of the Resistance is in itself a contrivance, to sort of shuffle the Republic out of the way.

The way to do this, and again to oh-so-tediously ape SW:ANH, is a planet killer. However, the idea that The First Order carried out this truly colossal construction project (think of the manpower and resources!) without so much as a single spy noticing and reporting it beggars belief. Next, the eternal cliche that the next threat has to be even bigger and more destructive than the last. This eats stars for fuel! And it can blow up planets from light-years away with faster-than-light blasts crossing the vastness of space. Never mind that the Republic, very conveniently, held most of its fleet at its capital system so the whole lot could be destroyed in one go. What a slushy mess.

 

[Piscian]

It's an appalling contrivance - again, poor storytelling from JJ.

So keen is JJ to recreate Star Wars (A New Hope), he has to magic up an excuse for a small force of plucky underdogs against a galaxy-dominating power - so the Galactic Republic is a problem that needs to be eliminated. Literally. The existence of the Resistance is in itself a contrivance, to sort of shuffle the Republic out of the way.

The way to do this, and again to oh-so-tediously ape SW:ANH, is a planet killer. However, the idea that The First Order carried out this truly colossal construction project (think of the manpower and resources!) without so much as a single spy noticing and reporting it beggars belief. Next, the eternal cliche that the next threat has to be even bigger and more destructive than the last. This eats stars for fuel! And it can blow up planets from light-years away with faster-than-light blasts crossing the vastness of space. Never mind that the Republic, very conveniently, held most of its fleet at its capital system so the whole lot could be destroyed in one go. What a slushy mess.

I think what disappoints me is that we didn't need like a great deal of explaination or to even change that much. There's been a couple solid EU books that did a similar deal with the imperial remnant rebuilding in the outer rim and a resurgence due to the Republic being a mess. I was pretty onboard with the idea of first order. I even liked the color schema and the idea that they raised child soldiers which is interesting. It was just the whole execution. Too much is happening offscreen, when it would have been far more interesting if the first movie was basically a war invasion film and ends on a dark note, you know plucky rebels despondent and looking for a new general Skywalker type leader.

Instead were "told" the First order took over the galaxy and the only scenes we see of them on screen are them being utterly incompetent morons so it cuts all the weight out from the whole trilogy right at the start. They haven't even left the outer rim when starkiller base is blown up.

On a side note the first art book that was released before force awakens came out listed Starkiller base as their headquarters. Obvious editing screw up but it confused the hell out of me when at the beginning of LTJ they said the First Order took over the galaxy and even without that book I'm sure I'm not the only one that was a little confused by the jump from getting your big base blown up to having taken over apparently the whole galaxy despite being bumbling fucking idiots.

Actually it occurs to me the empire never even took over the galaxy, that was all political maneuvering that like 20 years so the idea that the First Order did it in like a couple months or whatever is dumb.

 

[BrawlMan]

I think what disappoints me is that we didn't need like a great deal of explaination or to even change that much. There's been a couple solid EU books that did a similar deal with the imperial remnant rebuilding in the outer rim and a resurgence due to the Republic being a mess. I was pretty onboard with the idea of first order. I even liked the color schema and the idea that they raised child soldiers which is interesting. It was just the whole execution. Too much is happening offscreen, when it would have been far more interesting if the first movie was basically a war invasion film and ends on a dark note, you know plucky rebels despondent and looking for a new general Skywalker type leader.

Instead were "told" the First order took over the galaxy and the only scenes we see of them on screen are them being utterly incompetent morons so it cuts all the weight out from the whole trilogy right at the start. They haven't even left the outer rim when starkiller base is blown up.

On a side note the first art book that was released before force awakens came out listed Starkiller base as their headquarters. Obvious editing screw up but it confused the hell out of me when at the beginning of LTJ they said the First Order took over the galaxy and even without that book I'm sure I'm not the only one that was a little confused by the jump from getting your big base blown up to having taken over apparently the whole galaxy despite being bumbling fucking idiots.

Actually it occurs to me the empire never even took over the galaxy, that was all political maneuvering that like 20 years so the idea that the First Order did it in like a couple months or whatever is dumb.

What's really funny and ironic, is that Disney completely purged the EU, because they felt that all of it was too complicated and unnecessary. And that there were too many relatives to either Luke, Leia, the Skywalker family, or Palpatine in general. Only to do the same mistake for Rise of Skywalker. Which makes you wonder, what was even the point? I'm not that big into the expanded universe of Star Wars either, but I find it odd that they purge all of it not to make the same mistake, only to make the same mistake, but somehow worse. It comes off as really hypocritical and insulting to everyone involved and especially the viewers.

 

[Fallen Soldier]

What's really funny in ironic, is that Disney completely purged the EU, because they felt that all of it was too complicated and unnecessary. And that there were too many relatives to either Luke, Leia, the Skywalker family, or Palpatine in general. Only to do the same mistake for Rise of Skywalker. Which makes you wonder, what was even the point? I'm not that big into the expanded universe of Star Wars either, but I find it odd that they purge all of it not to make the same mistake, only to make the same mistake, but somehow worse. It comes off as really hypocritical and insulting to everyone involved and especially the viewers.

They clearly had no idea what they were doing either. However, I do support eliminating some stories from the overall canon because they make no sense in the grand scheme of things or were just overall bad.
The Force Unleashed series for example. I liked the first game well enough but I felt it’s story contradicted established to how the rebellion was founded. And then there’s the force unleashed 2 which has the worst story for any Star Wars media fiction. That needed to go as well due to how bad it was and how it clashed with canon in general.

 

[immortalfrieza]

What's really funny and ironic, is that Disney completely purged the EU, because they felt that all of it was too complicated and unnecessary. And that there were too many relatives to either Luke, Leia, the Skywalker family, or Palpatine in general. Only to do the same mistake for Rise of Skywalker. Which makes you wonder, what was even the point? I'm not that big into the expanded universe of Star Wars either, but I find it odd that they purge all of it not to make the same mistake, only to make the same mistake, but somehow worse. It comes off as really hypocritical and insulting to everyone involved and especially the viewers.

The point was to backpedal after TLJ got a minority but very vocal hatedom that convinced Disney that acting like TLJ never happened was the best course of action. Nearly everything wrong with Rise of Skywalker, which was most of it, came down to doing absolutely everything to push anything TLJ established to the wayside instead of building upon it like competent filmmakers would to create a satisfying conclusion.

It was a panic reaction, hence just going with the safe route of bringing EU stuff back into it like resurrected Palpatine rather than actually think about what they were doing. Panic reactions tend not to make sense.

 

[BrawlMan]

The point was to backpedal after TLJ got a minority but very vocal hatedom that convinced Disney that acting like TLJ never happened was the best course of action. Nearly everything wrong with Rise of Skywalker, which was most of it, came down to doing absolutely everything to push anything TLJ established to the wayside instead of building upon it like competent filmmakers would to create a satisfying conclusion.

It was a panic reaction, hence just going with the safe route of bringing EU stuff back into it like resurrected Palpatine rather than actually think about what they were doing. Panic reactions tend not to make sense.

I already know all that. It's still a stupid and hypocritical decision either way. When I last checked, the vocal minority ain't in charge of the project, so Disney should stop acting like those imbeciles are and make an actual plan. What's even more infuriating is that the ones that complain the most, a majority of them weren't satisfied when Disney "course corrected". You had a few, but most others started complaining again about things being too much the same. Make up your mind you dumbasses! You can't have it both ways!This is why that part of the fandom can screw off and get kicked in the groin a thousand times with a steel toed boot wrapped in barbed wire!

 

[Hades]

The point was to backpedal after TLJ got a minority but very vocal hatedom that convinced Disney that acting like TLJ never happened was the best course of action. Nearly everything wrong with Rise of Skywalker, which was most of it, came down to doing absolutely everything to push anything TLJ established to the wayside instead of building upon it like competent filmmakers would to create a satisfying conclusion.

It was a panic reaction, hence just going with the safe route of bringing EU stuff back into it like resurrected Palpatine rather than actually think about what they were doing. Panic reactions tend not to make sense.

I think that sums up the main problem with Disney. As a soulless corporation they tend to massively over correct any perceived flaws. The Prequels were controversial partially due to how different they were and how they included politics. in reaction to this Disney then mandated a new movie that stuck as close to the original trilogy as possible and the very concept of a galactic republic got almost entirely ignored. Then the biggest criticism about TFA was how conventional it was so they went all in with ''subverted expectations'' and when that movie because controversial they tried pretending the movie never happened while investing massively in fan service as an ''apology''.

Each sequel movie seems defined by its predecessor and a deliberate rejection of their predecessor too.

 

[Fallen Soldier]

The sequel trilogy is just a reimaging of the original trilogy in my view. Same story concepts with minor alterations. It did nothing new and played things way to safe.

 

[Ezekiel]

We know George Lucas winged it a lot of the time, but even when he was at his worst his movies had some semblance of...

...structure and direction.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I already know all that. It's still a stupid and hypocritical decision either way. When I last checked, the vocal minority ain't in charge of the project, so Disney should stop acting like those imbeciles are and make an actual plan. What's even more infuriating is that the ones that complain the most, a majority of them weren't satisfied when Disney "course corrected". You had a few, but most others started complaining again about things being too much the same. Make up your mind you dumbasses! You can't have it both ways!This is why that part of the fandom can screw off and get kicked in the groin a thousand times with a steel toed boot wrapped in barbed wire!

They're people who wouldn't have been satisfied no matter what Disney did. TLJ could've been the best movie in the history the human race, past, present, and future and these people would've still whined and moaned.

The Force Awakens got constant complaints that it was a retread of the OT. Personally I thought TFA was good enough to be worth watching and that's all I care about. So then The Last Jedi went out of it's way to do what the Sequel Trilogy should have done from the word jump and start shaking up Star Wars. These "fans" screamed bloody murder, which was the ultimate proof that these people just cannot be satisfied.

Rise of Skywalker backpedaled on everything TLJ did because of trying to cater to these people that don't know what they're talking about anyway. As a result we got one of the worst sequels in history.

We know George Lucas winged it a lot of the time, but even when he was at his worst his movies had some semblance of...

...structure and direction.

That specific example I doubt was intentional. They most likely never intended for that snippet to ever mean anything and just went... "oh hey! Let's drop this in the funeral scene!" When they were making Revenge of the Sith years later.

People like to blame the fact that the Sequel Trilogy had no plan. The entire Original Trilogy was flying by the seat of the pants and it turned out to be one of the best trilogies ever. Having no plan is simply an excuse for a crappy movie trilogy, not the cause. The cause is incompetent filmmakers who have no clue what they're doing and executives that keep getting in the way of stuff they know nothing about. Each movie could've still been great without any idea where any of the plot was going. Say what you will about Rian Johnson, but at least The Last Jedi wasn't a paint by numbers lazy Star Wars movie that actually took risks instead of being utterly predictable.

 

[Hawki]

People like to blame the fact that the Sequel Trilogy had no plan. The entire Original Trilogy was flying by the seat of the pants and it turned out to be one of the best trilogies ever. Having no plan is simply an excuse for a crappy movie trilogy, not the cause. The cause is incompetent filmmakers who have no clue what they're doing and executives that keep getting in the way of stuff they know nothing about. Each movie could've still been great without any idea where any of the plot was going. Say what you will about Rian Johnson, but at least The Last Jedi wasn't a paint by numbers lazy Star Wars movie that actually took risks instead of being utterly predictable.

I don't think that's a good equivalence though. A New Hope was made as a stand-alone, at least in the sense that there was no guarantee of its success, let alone sequels. The sequel trilogy, alternatively, was guaranteed to be a trilogy from the outset. Disney could have made three terrible films, and they'd still be a trilogy. So the lack of planning is less excusable.

Now, there's a debate to be had as to how much effort you should put into planning out a story beforehand - to borrow some terminology, it's the "plotter" vs. "pantser" approach. But regardless, we have a trilogy where each film arguably feels like a reaction to the one before it, with Rise of Skywalker being particuarly egregious, and a plotline that's a loose rehash of the OT. Last Jedi is the most original of the three, but apart from that, we have A New Hope 2.0, and...whatever the hell Rise of Skywalker is trying to be.

 

[Ezekiel]

That specific example I doubt was intentional. They most likely never intended for that snippet to ever mean anything and just went... "oh hey! Let's drop this in the funeral scene!" When they were making Revenge of the Sith years later.

I wouldn't have even filmed that scene if I didn't intend to do anything with the item later.

 

[Trunkage]

I don't think that's a good equivalence though. A New Hope was made as a stand-alone, at least in the sense that there was no guarantee of its success, let alone sequels. The sequel trilogy, alternatively, was guaranteed to be a trilogy from the outset. Disney could have made three terrible films, and they'd still be a trilogy. So the lack of planning is less excusable.

Now, there's a debate to be had as to how much effort you should put into planning out a story beforehand - to borrow some terminology, it's the "plotter" vs. "pantser" approach. But regardless, we have a trilogy where each film arguably feels like a reaction to the one before it, with Rise of Skywalker being particuarly egregious, and a plotline that's a loose rehash of the OT. Last Jedi is the most original of the three, but apart from that, we have A New Hope 2.0, and...whatever the hell Rise of Skywalker is trying to be.

I don't think the originals had much cohension. The tone was all over the place. It was poorly planned and was just doing one upsmanship. Oh, that death star. It's not as good as this death star. The difference is that we say them when we were kids thus massive plot holes and stupid contrivance were ignored.

So much stuff happened off screen. We had to waste our time either Benny Hill it through the Death Star, hiding in an asteroid field or hiding in a forest and meeting teddy bears... instead of, you know, finding out how Luke turned into a Jedi. But no. He was incompetent for 2 movies. Then suddenly turned into gary stu with a plan to get everyone captured

Edit: Thank Christ the Mandolarian just doesnt do all the action between episodes

 

[BrawlMan]

They're people who wouldn't have been satisfied no matter what Disney did. TLJ could've been the best movie in the history the human race, past, present, and future and these people would've still whined and moaned.

The Force Awakens got constant complaints that it was a retread of the OT. Personally I thought TFA was good enough to be worth watching and that's all I care about. So then The Last Jedi went out of it's way to do what the Sequel Trilogy should have done from the word jump and start shaking up Star Wars. These "fans" screamed bloody murder, which was the ultimate proof that these people just cannot be satisfied.

Rise of Skywalker backpedaled on everything TLJ did because of trying to cater to these people that don't know what they're talking about anyway. As a result we got one of the worst sequels in history.

Which is why creators, film makers, etc. should never listen flippant out-their-mind-fans 1000% of the time.

People like to blame the fact that the Sequel Trilogy had no plan. The entire Original Trilogy was flying by the seat of the pants and it turned out to be one of the best trilogies ever

Just because you can or think you cam make lightning strike twice, does not mean you should. Say what you will about the Prequel Trilogy, but at least Lucas had a plan. PT did have its own set of retcons as well, but at least all of the movies are mostly consistent. Even if I still hate Episode II.

Having no plan is simply an excuse for a crappy movie trilogy, not the cause.

It is the cause when everything is reactionary and you have no plans other than listening to a bunch of dickless cowards.

Say what you will about Rian Johnson, but at least The Last Jedi wasn't a paint by numbers lazy Star Wars movie that actually took risks instead of being utterly predictable.

That I can agree with.

 

[BrawlMan]

Korey from Double Toasted called out Disney's lack of planning years ago when TFA first released in cinema. A lot of rabid fans or those blinded by nostalgia refused to listen. So the man got it right, before anyone else even bothered to look, talk, or think about.

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