The Last Jedi, The Rise of Skywalker, and What It Means to Be a Good Sequel
- Thread starter Nick Calandra
- Start date
I disagree with most of you. The Last Jedi was the one good sequel and that the trilogy would have been a lot better off if they had ignored the backlash. And not brought Jeffrey back. As soon as he replaced Trevorrow as director, I feared that he would make Rey part of the family again and find some way to make Kylo Ren a pawn again. He's so inflexible as a storyteller. He can't just change directions even if someone inserts a turn in the middle of his vaguely outlined story. He can only repeat what has been done before.
I found something I wrote after watching The Last Jedi for the second time. I think this was before Jeffrey was announced as the director of Episode IX. How naive I was. How depressing it is to look back at my optimism.
December 18, 2018
"I like that Ren unshackled himself from Snoke and finally took charge. People complain that Rian Johnson wasted what Abrams was building with Snoke, but that would have just ended too much like Return of the Jedi, the bad guy playing a pawn again, and Snoke still served as a useful plot device in connecting the two main characters, Ren and Rey, before he was satisfyingly killed. I didn’t want Rey to be related to anybody. I’m grateful that she’s a nobody. I would have been pissed if she was a Skywalker, like everyone in the galaxy has to be related. It would have been so predictable and lame. Rey being a nobody plays into her character better anyway. She wanted a family, a sense of belonging, as Maz put it. She found one in her new friends. Making her Rey Skywalker would have been pointless."
So, although she didn't turn out to be related to the Skywalkers, as I feared after The Force Awakens, her becoming a Palpatine was just as bad. The Star Wars universe seems so small. The highest levels of the force are apparently only accessible to the privileged families.
Ryan Johnson:
1. "If she were told that she’s related to this person, or Luke is her this, or whatever, that’d be the easiest thing she could hear. That’s everything she wanted, that would instantly define what her place is in this universe. So to me, the equivalent of 'I am your father' is 'No, you’ve got to stand on your own two feet. There are not going to be those easy answers here for you. You’re wondering who you are? Okay, well, you have to find out who you are for yourself.'"
2. "I went through all the possibilities of who her parents could be. I made a list, with the upsides and downsides. There were two things about this option that made it feel right to me. Firstly. I like the idea that we’re breaking out from the notion that the force is this genetic thing that you have to be tied to somebody to have. It’s the ‘anybody can be president’ idea."
3. "For me, if Rey had gotten the answer that she’s related to so-and-so, had learned her place in the story, that would be the easiest thing she can hear. The hardest thing to hear is, ‘nope, this not going to define you.’ And in fact, Kylo is going to use this to try and undercut your confidence so you’ll feel you have to lean on him for your identity. And you’re going to have to make the choice to find your own identity in this story."
Johnson was correct. Her learning that she came from nothing was fitting.
Jeffrey also put the lame helmet back on Kylo Ren, failing to recognize that Johnson had the character drop it on the floor to signify that he was letting go of the past and becoming more sure of himself. It was very obvious cinematic language.
Of course I don't know which of these decisions were Jeffrey's and which were Disney over-correcting. But looking at how Jeffrey kind of doomed the trilogy from the start by constructing such a flimsy Episode VII, he's a moron anyway.
I found something I wrote after watching The Last Jedi for the second time. I think this was before Jeffrey was announced as the director of Episode IX. How naive I was. How depressing it is to look back at my optimism.
December 18, 2018
"I like that Ren unshackled himself from Snoke and finally took charge. People complain that Rian Johnson wasted what Abrams was building with Snoke, but that would have just ended too much like Return of the Jedi, the bad guy playing a pawn again, and Snoke still served as a useful plot device in connecting the two main characters, Ren and Rey, before he was satisfyingly killed. I didn’t want Rey to be related to anybody. I’m grateful that she’s a nobody. I would have been pissed if she was a Skywalker, like everyone in the galaxy has to be related. It would have been so predictable and lame. Rey being a nobody plays into her character better anyway. She wanted a family, a sense of belonging, as Maz put it. She found one in her new friends. Making her Rey Skywalker would have been pointless."
So, although she didn't turn out to be related to the Skywalkers, as I feared after The Force Awakens, her becoming a Palpatine was just as bad. The Star Wars universe seems so small. The highest levels of the force are apparently only accessible to the privileged families.
Ryan Johnson:
1. "If she were told that she’s related to this person, or Luke is her this, or whatever, that’d be the easiest thing she could hear. That’s everything she wanted, that would instantly define what her place is in this universe. So to me, the equivalent of 'I am your father' is 'No, you’ve got to stand on your own two feet. There are not going to be those easy answers here for you. You’re wondering who you are? Okay, well, you have to find out who you are for yourself.'"
2. "I went through all the possibilities of who her parents could be. I made a list, with the upsides and downsides. There were two things about this option that made it feel right to me. Firstly. I like the idea that we’re breaking out from the notion that the force is this genetic thing that you have to be tied to somebody to have. It’s the ‘anybody can be president’ idea."
3. "For me, if Rey had gotten the answer that she’s related to so-and-so, had learned her place in the story, that would be the easiest thing she can hear. The hardest thing to hear is, ‘nope, this not going to define you.’ And in fact, Kylo is going to use this to try and undercut your confidence so you’ll feel you have to lean on him for your identity. And you’re going to have to make the choice to find your own identity in this story."
Johnson was correct. Her learning that she came from nothing was fitting.
Jeffrey also put the lame helmet back on Kylo Ren, failing to recognize that Johnson had the character drop it on the floor to signify that he was letting go of the past and becoming more sure of himself. It was very obvious cinematic language.
Of course I don't know which of these decisions were Jeffrey's and which were Disney over-correcting. But looking at how Jeffrey kind of doomed the trilogy from the start by constructing such a flimsy Episode VII, he's a moron anyway.
By the way, I always have to laugh at anyone who gives The Force Awakens the pass. If Jeffrey and his bosses hadn't made their flimsy mystery box beginning, with its lack of proper set up, Johnson basically wouldn't have been written into a corner. I would have been PISSED to have to write a sequel to THAT. He couldn't even be bothered to organically move the world forward thirty years. If the First Order starts out just as powerful as the Empire was and Luke is back to square one and Han is smuggling again and Leia is still basically a Rebel fighter, then what was the point of the time jump? He could have done so many more interesting things than make Han and Leia's son another Anakin and the hero another novice setting out on her first adventure, from the desert too.
Cutting Palpatine out of the story also would have given more time for a better resolution with General Hux. He had a legitimate claim against the usurper. There was an interesting power struggle there to tell.
It was that damned island honestly: who among us could come up with a *good* reason for Luke to be on some random, deliberately hidden backwater planet while his protege was out hanging with neo-fascists who were trying to take over the galaxy and destroy a solar system with his friends and family in mortal peril?
I know when I like Luke Skywalker, I think...sad, lonely desperate coward who has given up hope, and no longer sees the good in the Galaxy and finds it pointless to struggle against evil. Yup. That's Luke Skywalker.
Dont forget trying to kill his nephew because he had a bad dream.
My main issue with Last Jedi was that sub plot with Finn and Rose that went nowhere since they endangered the resistance and killing off Snoke right before they could do anything with him.
That's something that never made sense to me. Not the whole bad dream murder, 'cause its a little up in the air if he was gonna do it, but the whole "Ben is being corrupted" plot in the first place. Like everyone spoke about Snoke as if he was a known entity, he's just the next Dark Lord and he's corrupting Ben and no one is bothering to do anything about it. Like Luke isn't taking a strike force of Jedi to kill him, Han can't be bothered to jump in the Falcon and blow up a few ships, Leia isn't sending in the fleet to stop him. Everyone was just too lazy to stop the evil monster man from corrupting their child.
Like the second Luke sensed the dark side of the force he should have called a meeting of all full Jedi and they meditate until they find Snoke's location, and then all hell is let loose. Jedi strike force backed up by the most elite Republic soldiers, Rogue and Gold squadron, the Falcon, Lando with his spies, just everything.
Instead...Luke, Han and Leia are all kinda losers. They're really bad at fighting evil, they're bad at protecting their loved ones, and they're all just lazy and dopey.
That's a criticism of the idea that Johnson had, not your own better idea for why Luke was hiding out on a hidden island, ignoring his neo-fascist protege putting his friends, family, and galaxy in mortal peril
I mean, *I* liked the story of the depressed cynic regaining his hope and the power of stories and going Trickster God on the First Order to inject the narrative that blunts the FO's momentum and gives the galaxy hope to fight back. Probably the best way for Johnson to play the hand he was dealt. Definitely a better narrative conclusion than anything RoS had
I mean, *I* liked the story of the depressed cynic regaining his hope and the power of stories and going Trickster God on the First Order to inject the narrative that blunts the FO's momentum and gives the galaxy hope to fight back. Probably the best way for Johnson to play the hand he was dealt. Definitely a better narrative conclusion than anything RoS had
That was specifically to cater to the Chinese market, who hated the idea of the Asian woman hooking up with the black man. Like very very specifically that plot was cut because it would have pissed off the Chinese audiences. They're a stupidly racist people, and Hollywood really downplays black people to appease them.
Didn't bother me. It was only a fleeting thought for him, that was understandable given what he saw, his lineage and the other students whom he had to protect. You can't really even blame him, considering that his nightmare came true. But the important thing is that he didn't complete what he planned to do. He changed his mind before Ben woke up, as I recall. (Rise of Skywalker was so disappointing that I'll probably never watch The Last Jedi again.) I wouldn't have gone in that direction with the story in the first place, but again, Jeffrey's lame beginning doomed Johnson's movie from the start. I don't know what I would have done as Johnson.
I mean, it's certainly an excuse, but let's not pretend like Disney is a bastion of progressive ideals held in check only by those racist and homophobic foreigners
Yeah I think the downfall of the trilogy can be traced back to The Force Awakens. There was nothing that could be done with the trilogy because The Force Awakens already showed us there was no interesting story to tell. It was just a scene for scene remake of A New Hope, the villainous faction had not a single real treat aside from being Imperial cosplayers and despite every named villain being a joke character we're led to believe they easily humiliated the old heroes.
Aside from offering no ideas of their own the new movies also take the stance that the first trilogy just didn't happen. Its still rebels vs stormtroopers, and the later having a gigantic death weapon. The galaxy hasn't changed even a little bit since A New Hope.
Oh no, Im not excusing them, that's what actually happened. The asian woman hooking up with the black man would have caused outrage, boycotting, and maybe even censorship and the moving being pulled in China. Disney does not care about narrative consistency or progressive movements, they care about money. So they decided it would be easier for fans like you and me to complain about sloppy narrative and story telling than miss out on the Chinese market.
I've posted this before, but Disney and China are not subtle in their marketing:
TFA was a something of an ok start even if I thought it was trying to be a remake of A New Hope. I didn’t hate it outright, and I thought it gave any new Disney made Star Wars films potential.
I also liked Rogue One for trying to be something different. I thought it was the bestDisney made Star Wars film.
Overall Disney has a mixed track record in regards to Star Wars films. Starting off okay then making something pretty unique with Rogue one, then making a crappy movie in The Last Jedi.
I also liked Rogue One for trying to be something different. I thought it was the bestDisney made Star Wars film.
Overall Disney has a mixed track record in regards to Star Wars films. Starting off okay then making something pretty unique with Rogue one, then making a crappy movie in The Last Jedi.
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I agree the Rogue One is the best of the Disney Star Wars movies, and I think Rogue One is one of the best Star Wars movies, period. I thought it was expertly done, great narrative, characters carried the plot well enough, and it ends right at the beginning of A New Hope. Very well done.
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I didnt like force awakens. So much so I've never successfully watched it a second time. Some of it has to do with it not really tonally working in the context of Star Wars, but also just trying too hard to pander to fans and not enough time writing a compelling story or dialog. JJ Abrams has a habit of having his characters talk to the audience and not each other and not thinking about whether his writing works in context of a scene or his overall plan.
When I think of Force Awakens I'm always reminded of this scene where another storm trooper inexplicably recognizes Finn and angrily demands a duel and also happens to have a weapon specifically designed to duel a lightsaber Finn happens to have and it's just like "man you put a lot of effort into trying to make this scene happen.". He clearly had the scene in mind before thinking if it even works in the context of the film.
A lot of the film is like that. The logic for kylo killing Han is thin and highly reliant on the audience both having a specific reference of kylo wanting to be Sith I guess and nostalgia for Han.
Force awakens kinda ruined the trilogy for me before it even started because of it was so desperate to placate fans that it turned into this Rube Goldberg machine of storytelling barely held together with light sabers and nostalgia.
Last Jedi imo was an absolute trainwreck again with a focus on scenery over storytelling.
I think the entire trilogy was doomed to fail when they forced the original cast to return. It was never going to work, especially with them trying to retread the OT.
It's weird to think in retrospect the Dark Empire or Thrawn trilogy were far superior in writing quality. I'm genuinely thankful that they underperformed. It seems to have been a mild wake up call for Disney that if they're gonna keep using the property they needed someone with a cohesive vision in terms of quality and tonal consistency.
When I think of Force Awakens I'm always reminded of this scene where another storm trooper inexplicably recognizes Finn and angrily demands a duel and also happens to have a weapon specifically designed to duel a lightsaber Finn happens to have and it's just like "man you put a lot of effort into trying to make this scene happen.". He clearly had the scene in mind before thinking if it even works in the context of the film.
A lot of the film is like that. The logic for kylo killing Han is thin and highly reliant on the audience both having a specific reference of kylo wanting to be Sith I guess and nostalgia for Han.
Force awakens kinda ruined the trilogy for me before it even started because of it was so desperate to placate fans that it turned into this Rube Goldberg machine of storytelling barely held together with light sabers and nostalgia.
Last Jedi imo was an absolute trainwreck again with a focus on scenery over storytelling.
I think the entire trilogy was doomed to fail when they forced the original cast to return. It was never going to work, especially with them trying to retread the OT.
It's weird to think in retrospect the Dark Empire or Thrawn trilogy were far superior in writing quality. I'm genuinely thankful that they underperformed. It seems to have been a mild wake up call for Disney that if they're gonna keep using the property they needed someone with a cohesive vision in terms of quality and tonal consistency.
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JJ Abrams examplifies a sort of creator who is extremely slick but ultimately soulless. Movies by numbers, well executed.
Disney's got its hands on some super-valauble IP, so they look for an ultimate safe pair of hands, who gives them Star Wars Mk II. Honestly, he may as well have just done a reboot. In a sense, job done: people didn't hate it. But nor could he hide the fact that he'd largely just taken all the elements of the original and replayed them.