The Last Jedi, The Rise of Skywalker, and What It Means to Be a Good Sequel

[Hawki]

If the First Order starts out just as powerful as the Empire

I don't think that's actually TFA's fault though. The First Order in TFA is powerful, yes, but it's not a galactic power. It's actually Last Jedi that has them sweeping over everything.

Of course, the First Order is a repeat of the Empire regardless, and that IS on TFA.

I know when I like Luke Skywalker, I think...sad, lonely desperate coward who has given up hope, and no longer sees the good in the Galaxy and finds it pointless to struggle against evil. Yup. That's Luke Skywalker.

Because of course we want our protagonists to be perfect and never have despair.

The irony is that your take on Luke Skywalker as a paragon is exactly what TLJ is critiquing, while also reaffirming a people's need for heroes, even if they can't live up to their own legends.

Dont forget trying to kill his nephew because he had a bad dream.

He doesn't. Ben thought he was, but the final flashback made that clear.

It's "truths from a certain point of view" in action.

My main issue with Last Jedi was that sub plot with Finn and Rose that went nowhere since they endangered the resistance and killing off Snoke right before they could do anything with him.

You couldn't do anything interestng with Snoke though.

Snoke is the same, tired, cliched villain we've had a thousand times - "dark lord guy who's evil and does evil things for evil reasons." Kylo Ren is easily the best antagonist in the sequel trilogy, but nup, Palpy's brought back because we gotta pander.

That was specifically to cater to the Chinese market, who hated the idea of the Asian woman hooking up with the black man. Like very very specifically that plot was cut because it would have pissed off the Chinese audiences. They're a stupidly racist people, and Hollywood really downplays black people to appease them.

Source needed, because Kelly Marie Tran got plenty of racist backlash in the States as well.

Personally speaking, I'm not fond of Rose either, nor the Rose/Finn dynamic, but what I'm even less fond of is how RoS took the coward's way out when dealing with it.

TFA was a something of an ok start even if I thought it was trying to be a remake of A New Hope. I didn’t hate it outright, and I thought it gave any new Disney made Star Wars films potential.

I also liked Rogue One for trying to be something different. I thought it was the bestDisney made Star Wars film.

Overall Disney has a mixed track record in regards to Star Wars films. Starting off okay then making something pretty unique with Rogue one, then making a crappy movie in The Last Jedi.

If I had to rank the Disney Star Wars films, I'd go:

5) Rogue One
4) The Rise of Skywalker
3) The Force Awakens
2) Solo
1) The Last Jedi

Since I only like TLJ and Solo out of their list, they haven't done a good job with the IP, IMO.

I agree the Rogue One is the best of the Disney Star Wars movies, and I think Rogue One is one of the best Star Wars movies, period. I thought it was expertly done, great narrative, characters carried the plot well enough, and it ends right at the beginning of A New Hope. Very well done.

I'm the opposite.

Rogue One is a mess. That it has a solid third act doesn't excuse the lacklustre first two acts. The pacing is off, the characters are shallow, it dips its toes in moral ambiguity but backs away, the grunge aesthetic doesn't work, and it tying in with A New Hope doesn't even work that well, considering the apparent declines in technology between the two films (from a filmmaking standpoint).

Rogue One, IMO, is even worse than Rise of Skywalker. Rise is more egregious from a storytelling standpoint, but it's at least a competently made film that's fun, that does have some genuinely good, heartfelt moments. Rogue One's claim to fame is its last battle scene. That's nice, and all, but action by itself can't save a movie.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Rogue One, IMO, is even worse than Rise of Skywalker. Rise is more egregious from a storytelling standpoint, but it's at least a competently made film that's fun, that does have some genuinely good, heartfelt moments. Rogue One's claim to fame is its last battle scene. That's nice, and all, but action by itself can't save a movie.

I think Rogue One owes its success mainly to the final act as well, but I can't agree with TROS being competently made nor fun. I could watch the final act of Rogue One again and again. There is not a single second in TROS that I would sacrifice bandwidth for.

OT: Anyway, my favorite is still The Force Awakens. If only because it still felt like they were actually trying. The CGI looks good, the sets look good, and it's more or less well paced with its action. It's Star Wars, maybe to a fault. And as a huge fan of the series, there was just no beating the lead up to the movie.

I don't even have a big problem with The Last Jedi's main plot points, but the whole thing is a poster child for wasted opportunity. You can say that TFA was a bad foundation, but it feels more like Rian Johnson watched the last 30 seconds of TFA and nothing more. Why does the film's ONLY lightsaber fight involve random red mooks and not the Knights of Ren? Why doesn't Finn having to disguise himself as First Order lead into an exploration of his past? Why the fuck does Luke not even acknowledge that Han is dead?

I hate it when people say something is "disrespectful" to Star Wars, that's pretty cringe, but I think killing off Admiral Ackbar for absolutely no reason is disrespectful. They went out of their fucking way to kill him off, when most people probably didn't even realize he was in the two movies.

TLJ (and TROS) looks like shit as well. The opening scene belongs to a TV show. All the new ship and vehicle designs look like they were created in a day or stolen from Deviantart. If there were any practical effects, they were overshadowed by the crap CGI.

And finally, just like Rogue One, almost all the action takes place in the final act. Except there's no stakes, uninspired setpieces, and makes no sense (seriously, someone explain to me how Finn and Rose just waltzed back into the base).

Meh. My feelings about TLJ are less "HOW DARE THEY DO THIS" and more of "Man, this is it?". I won't even bother talking about TROS, because why would I.

 

[Piscian]

I think Rogue One owes its success mainly to the final act as well, but I can't agree with TROS being competently made nor fun. I could watch the final act of Rogue One again and again. There is not a single second in TROS that I would sacrifice bandwidth for.

I think the almost exception I'd make is that scene where Rey & Kylo were fighting on the ocean wreck of the deathstar and Kylo Ren seeing his dad. I think out of context that would have been pretty good. I'm curious as to who came up with that, certainly wasn't JJ Abrams. Instead, getting to that point is a jumbled mess of a trilogy with no clear direction or character arcs. That's the only pleasant memory I have of the whole trilogy.

 

[Agema]

The irony is that your take on Luke Skywalker as a paragon is exactly what TLJ is critiquing, while also reaffirming a people's need for heroes, even if they can't live up to their own legends.

In a sense, of course, Luke is taking on the Obi-wan role, who likewise departed active involvement in helping the galaxy.

The difference perhaps is that Obi-wan was playing a watching game, keeping an eye on Luke until he matured so he could step back into action with the messiah, whereas Luke just went off in a huff.

You couldn't do anything interestng with Snoke though.

Snoke is the same, tired, cliched villain we've had a thousand times - "dark lord guy who's evil and does evil things for evil reasons."

Correct. But I'd still have preferred him to a resurrected Palpatine, which is just cringeworthy.

 

[Hawki]

In a sense, of course, Luke is taking on the Obi-wan role, who likewise departed active involvement in helping the galaxy.

The difference perhaps is that Obi-wan was playing a watching game, keeping an eye on Luke until he matured so he could step back into action with the messiah, whereas Luke just went off in a huff.

I disagree that Luke's analagous to Obi-Wan here. Maybe Yoda, but that's missing the point about the hero monomyth. And "went off in a huff" is unfair. More like departing in abject despair.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I disagree that Luke's analagous to Obi-Wan here. Maybe Yoda, but that's missing the point about the hero monomyth. And "went off in a huff" is unfair. More like departing in abject despair.

And departing in abject despair because he royally screwed up and pretty much singlehandedly destroyed everything he spent the past 30 years building. Luke did so because as is the OT showed with his reckless and impulsive behavior perfectly in character for him he reacted to a split second impulse and turned his lightsaber on, rather miniscule thing that had horrific consequences. Running off to isolate himself is just as impulsive but also perfectly human.

Anyone who claims this stuff is out of character for Luke doesn't know Luke's character in the first place and are using defective recall. Remember, this is a man who, just for one thing that is very similar to the above, flew into a blind rage and nearly killed his own father who mere seconds before Luke was adamantly refusing to fight because Leia was being threatened by Vader. In part, I blame the old EU or Legends for this. Fans are used to Luke being being this unstoppable god mode Sue character that can do no wrong like he is in Legends. One so overpowered they have to have him either badly injuried or otherwise have his powers crippled for the entirety of the story or just have him leave the story at really arbitrary points so he doesn't utterly destroy the plot.

If I were the one making TLJ, I would keep it almost exactly the same as it is. The only change I would make would be to have Holdo say that she had a plan to get them out of the situation they were in, not say a word about what the plan was, just say that she had one. Then she wouldn't have looked like a completely worthless leader and wouldn't have given Poe every reason to do what he did in the movie. Just have Poe think he knew better and go behind Holdo's back anyway, that would've serviced Poe's intended arc much better.

If I were to make Rise Of Skywalker? Well, first I wouldn't give it such a story potential limiting name in the first place. Then I'd preserve where TLJ left off by opening the movie with a title crawl about Kylo Ren taking over the First Order, but having part of it split off and start a civil war, probably led by Hux because who else do we know of in the First Order who would have the motivation and the clout to even try? Then add that underneath all of this, the Resistance is recruiting and rebuilding their forces while taking advantage of the civil war, Rey is training using the sacred Jedi texts (trying to clumsily shove Carrie Fisher's last performance as Leia into the movie was another flaw) and Finn and Rose have formed a task force of some kind.

I'd open the movie with Poe trying to negotiate with some bureaucrat to get more recruits and ships and is about to close the deal when the First Order shows up to disrupt things. Cue the Knights of Ren being introduced and killing off some redshirts while Poe maybe downs 1 but everybody else is getting effortlessly slaughtered. KoR decide to stop fooling around when this happens and goes in for the kill. Cue Rey showing up to save everybody, fighting off the knights, and making them retreat but not doing signficant damage to them. Then we get to the rest of the movie which I'm not going to go into, but just this is already a hundred times better than what we actually got in Rise of Skywalker in it's entirety, but that's not a high bar to clear.

Above all, NO Palpatine. Well, maybe that would be #2. #1 is I would make Kylo Ren the primary big bad like the other 2 movies had spent setting up. Then make Kylo even more dangerous and psychotic than he already was. At the end of TLJ the Star Wars galaxy has a psychopathic manchild with now absolutely no restraint in control of the most powerful military force in the galaxy. If you can't turn that premise into something horrifying as a story you don't deserve to be a writer.

#3 would be not only make Kylo the big bad but keep him that way. By this point we've seen a hundred Vaders both in Star Wars and out. Redeeming the bad guy has become a cliche. What would be more interesting is that after 2 movies of being conflicted and possible to redeem, Kylo finally solidified that he's evil. By all means, make Rey try to reach him one last time, however, it doesn't work.

They fight an epic lightsaber duel, with both at full strength. The sole reason Rey beat anyone significant in either of the first 2 movies was because she already had a massive advantage over them. Kylo was heavily wounded already and had just fought off Finn. Rey had a lightsaber and Luke didn't, plus he didn't have The Force at the time plus he wasn't trying to hurt Rey in the first place. Whenever she faced anyone with competence and that is fresh, such as Snoke, or Kylo when they first met on the battlefied she was manhandled effortlessly like she should be, being an untrained force sensitive.

If Rise of Skywalker did anything right, it was demonstrating quite decisively that even with some training under her belt Rey never stood a real chance against Kylo Ren in a fight with both at full strength, and even then they still blew it by having Kylo get momentarily distracted so Rey could get a hit in and they could have her win at the last second. I'd rather in this theoretical movie have Rey win legitimately after a long protracted struggle with both giving their all and giving no quarter to demonstrate Rey actually is legitimately powerful now, but I've got to give RoS props for probably the only worthwhile scene in the entire movie.

Have the Knights of Ren show up a couple more times in the movie to hound the main characters and barely escape from them before finally being killed off in a fight at the end. Hell, have them kill off Finn or Rose or Poe during one of these encounters to show off just how dangerous they are. It would be an improvement over how RoS had them just stand around doing nothing on screen and then getting easily killed once their former boss got a lightsaber.

 

[Ezekiel]

On top of the bad guy being redeemed being a cliche, Kylo Ren didn't even deserve to be redeemed or to turn good. Not after murdering his own father. I can think of few things lower than patricide. Imagine the will that would require. The most that I would have let Kylo Ren have is some regret before his end. But not redemption.

 

[BrawlMan]

I'm surprised he decided to bring this topic back. There's technically already another Star Wars rants topic.

I'll just say that the Last Jedi is still my favorite of the new trilogy. Force awakens was just okay, and of Skywalker I've enjoyed less and less. There was too much course correction in that movie. The fact that just need to not have an overall plan and was just going by to see their pants the entire time bit than in the ass. At least Rian Johnson was going with something.

If you're going to go that off real she might as well just throw in Travis Touchdown. He would definitely make things more interesting.

I was always a casual Star Wars fan, but the third movie in the new trilogy made my interest plummet immediately. Star Wars Visions is great though. I honestly want more of that. They lease experiment and do different ideas. Yeah, majority of the shorts are non-canon, but I don't care.

Rogue One I liked well enough. I still don't have the DVD for it nor Skywalker.

 

[Gordon_4]

I can think of few things lower than patricide.

I think someone's view on patricide is going to vary depending on who the parent is.


Also who performed necromancy on this thread and why?

 

[Hades]

OT: Anyway, my favorite is still The Force Awakens. If only because it still felt like they were actually trying

Were they trying though? Because aside from it being a scene for scene remake of another movie they also never seem interested in the story they're trying to tell. The Galaxy is back to Stormtroopers vs rebels despite the good guys by definition no longer being rebels since they already toppled the empire, and nowhere is anyone really interested in explaining why that is. Or what the First Order even is aside from Empire cosplayers.

Its easily the movie with the least ideas, with the least effort and thought put into it. The movie's competent but only because they already had the script from A New Hope to work with.

 

[Agema]

I disagree that Luke's analagous to Obi-Wan here. Maybe Yoda, but that's missing the point about the hero monomyth. And "went off in a huff" is unfair. More like departing in abject despair.

Fair enough: he's possibly more analogous to Yoda, or a combination of the two.

I accept that he's despairing, and I think it's a valid character arc. Although not one to his favour (and hence some fans' dismay), given that in doing so he leaves a dark Jedi free to rampage over the galaxy - and surely he noticed how that turned out the last time.

They fight an epic lightsaber duel, with both at full strength. The sole reason Rey beat anyone significant in either of the first 2 movies was because she already had a massive advantage over them. Kylo was heavily wounded already and had just fought off Finn.

I think we can try to dream up explanations for the Kylo-Rey fight, but I would perhaps strip back to the meta and say it's a fight that should not have occurred, only doing so due to the exigencies of crowd-pleasing and JJ Abrams's creative deficiencies. JJ Abrams wants a lightsabre duel because the audience expect one, but did not construct a suitable story to support one. Thus Rey has to have absurdly accelerated force gubbins, and Kylo has to be gimped. (In fact Kylo's been hit by a weapon that can flatten an armoured Stormtrooper: Kylo probably shouldn't even be able to walk as it would probably have comprehensively mangled a substantial chunk of his abdomen and is probably down to one kidney - but then we're expected to think "But the Force...")

And as per this long-running debate, it is evidently unsatisfactory. The job is not really trying to make sense of it, it's realising how JJ Abrams fucked up his plot to make it happen in the first place - along with all the other compromises and inadequacies he dropped in.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Were they trying though? Because aside from it being a scene for scene remake of another movie they also never seem interested in the story they're trying to tell.

"Trying to make an actual Star Wars movie" is what I meant to say before my brain decided to stop writing. The whole movie is basically a callback, yeah, but a competently made one. It fits in seamlessly with the rest of the trilogy. The music, the effects, the usual tropes you'd expect from a Star Wars movie, etc. TLJ on the other hand sticks out like a sore thumb. Easily some of the worst Wars in the Stars we've gotten from the franchise, forgettable soundtrack, over the top humor, lackluster effects and design, etc. Johnson obviously injected his own style into the movie, which ironically made it feel more generic to me, like an MCU movie.

From a writing/plot perspective, TLJ is definitely a much more interesting tale than TFA, hell probably more than anything else Disney has put out for Star Wars. I actually quite like the idea of Luke giving up hope, and getting rid of Snoke. But TLJ is lacking on pretty much every other front, and I'd argue that it definitely doesn't stick the landing with its plot either. Its a movie that runs mostly on shock value and subverting expectations to keep the audience interested. There's just nothing to appreciate in a second viewing for me. The closest would be the throne room fight, which I know a lot of people hate but I still enjoy. Or the hyperspace ram, if TROS didn't make it a fucking joke.

The Galaxy is back to Stormtroopers vs rebels despite the good guys by definition no longer being rebels since they already toppled the empire, and nowhere is anyone really interested in explaining why that is. Or what the First Order even is aside from Empire cosplayers.

I mean, neither of the other sequels bothered to answer these questions either. At least, as far as I can remember. Everything is in the terrible comics, books, and TV shows they put out. But if anything, I'd say it would make more sense for these questions to be answered in TLJ.

 

[Dansen]

I don't get the love for TLJ, it is so BORING. The only moment that I felt something was when Kylo asked Rey to join him, finally something new that wasn't just tearing down the old mythos, but nope it was just a bait and switch. You can chalk some of that up to the corner Disney and Abrahams write themselves into with the previous film but at the end of the day it is not interesting in its ideas or execution. At least I didn't want to leave the theater while watch TFA. Rey, Poe and Finn were great successors to the previous cast but the characters and actors were wasted so badly.

 

[Piscian]

"Trying to make an actual Star Wars movie" is what I meant to say before my brain decided to stop writing. The whole movie is basically a callback, yeah, but a competently made one. It fits in seamlessly with the rest of the trilogy. The music, the effects, the usual tropes you'd expect from a Star Wars movie, etc. TLJ on the other hand sticks out like a sore thumb. Easily some of the worst Wars in the Stars we've gotten from the franchise, forgettable soundtrack, over the top humor, lackluster effects and design, etc. Johnson obviously injected his own style into the movie, which ironically made it feel more generic to me, like an MCU movie.

From a writing/plot perspective, TLJ is definitely a much more interesting tale than TFA, hell probably more than anything else Disney has put out for Star Wars. I actually quite like the idea of Luke giving up hope, and getting rid of Snoke. But TLJ is lacking on pretty much every other front, and I'd argue that it definitely doesn't stick the landing with its plot either. Its a movie that runs mostly on shock value and subverting expectations to keep the audience interested. There's just nothing to appreciate in a second viewing for me. The closest would be the throne room fight, which I know a lot of people hate but I still enjoy. Or the hyperspace ram, if TROS didn't make it a fucking joke.

I mean, neither of the other sequels bothered to answer these questions either. At least, as far as I can remember. Everything is in the terrible comics, books, and TV shows they put out. But if anything, I'd say it would make more sense for these questions to be answered in TLJ.

I think fundamentally the TLJ wanting to take the themes in a different direction is never what bothered me about the film. Having Luke be disillusioned with the force as his attempt to restart the Jedi failed or the idea of Kylo usurping the villain. Its all interesting, exciting even, but it's the execution that sort of drove me up a wall. I feel like smart writer, director teams know how to tell stories with just the right ambiguity that it's not force me to constantly ask questions. I can nitpick a few silly choices here and there in Force Awakens, but it mostly works. I can say the same for Solo or Rogue One.

I think the Hyperspace Ram is a good example of making a choice to do something without putting yourself in the audiences shoes. I mean for all intents and purposes they did the same effect with the Hammerhead in Rogue One and no one blew a gasket or the A-Wing that crashed into the Star Destroyer command deck in ROTJ. Infact I really loved that they filmed the hammerhead in such a way that you could feel the Hammerhead crew being resigned to their fate. The context made sense. The Hyperspace Ram is not only new, but also "Breaks the rules" as they like to say in scifi and horror film making and pulls the audience out of the film forcing them to ask "why didn't they do this an hour ago? When has this been a thing? why don't they do this all the time?" etc etc.

TLJ is filled with an endless of amount weird choices that literally pulls the audience out of the immersion inexplicably. At the end of the day whether or not you can come up with a defence for it doesn't change the fact you've lost the audience. It's just bad filmmaking and you're going to lose anyone who isn't just there to shove popcorn in their mouths until the credits.

 

[Piscian]

I don't get the love for TLJ, it is so BORING. The only moment that I felt something was when Kylo asked Rey to join him, finally something new that wasn't just tearing down the old mythos, but nope it was just a bait and switch. You can chalk some of that up to the corner Disney and Abrahams write themselves into with the previous film but at the end of the day it is not interesting in its ideas or execution. At least I didn't want to leave the theater while watch TFA. Rey, Poe and Finn were great successors to the previous cast but the characters and actors were wasted so badly.

I think my strongest feeling of boredom was around the point where luke shows up, but turns out to be a force projection. At this point I just felt like the movie was dragging itself out, after the whole thing with the movie essentially being rebels recreating the car running out gas episode from Seinfeld, the mutiny, the secret plan, the purple lady sacrifice for nothing, the Luke sacrifice for nothing because him showing up didn't actually change anything, then Finns gonna sacrifice himself, but NO Rose is gonna sacrifice herself so he doesn't sacrifice himself...christ I just wanted the goddamn thing to end already.

 

[Fallen Soldier]

Another reason I don’t like the film is how they made The First Order seemingly be able to conquer the whole galaxy off screen. Sure they explained it in expanded media, but it feels like lazy writing in trying to make these guys look stronger without trying.

 

[Hades]

Another reason I don’t like the film is how they made The First Order seemingly be able to conquer the whole galaxy off screen. Sure they explained it in expanded media, but it feels like lazy writing in trying to make these guys look stronger without trying.

And then in the next movie they even get defeated off screen too. Its really the worst evil faction imaginable.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

That's back to a TFA problem though: the apparent destruction of literally all of the New Republic and all of its civilian and military command structures.

The First Order wouldn't actually have a hard time taking over at that point, and if it weren't portrayed as exclusivly using brainwashed child soldiers you could make a case that various warlord types flocking to them could make up the shortfall of manpower.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I think the Hyperspace Ram is a good example of making a choice to do something without putting yourself in the audiences shoes. I mean for all intents and purposes they did the same effect with the Hammerhead in Rogue One and no one blew a gasket or the A-Wing that crashed into the Star Destroyer command deck in ROTJ. Infact I really loved that they filmed the hammerhead in such a way that you could feel the Hammerhead crew being resigned to their fate. The context made sense. The Hyperspace Ram is not only new, but also "Breaks the rules" as they like to say in scifi and horror film making and pulls the audience out of the film forcing them to ask "why didn't they do this an hour ago? When has this been a thing? why don't they do this all the time?" etc etc.

I always thought the hyperspace ram was relatively easy to explain away. All that mass of debris flying around the galaxy at hyperspeed, eventually some poor innocent bystander out there is gonna have their day ruined. I was imagining the opening of TROS being the Resistance gang helping evacuate some settlement that was showered with thousands of pieces of hyperspeed starship, so they could see exactly what they had to sacrifice.

They could have also at least made it harder for Holdo to do, when starships hyperdrives are known to automatically shut off once they're near enough a source of gravity. She should have had to destroy any safeguards, instead of tapping on her iPad and pulling a lever.

 

[Eacaraxe]

My biggest gripe about TLJ is still that Liondick "subverted expectations" by backing down on every good idea he had, and doubling down on every bad idea he had.

Designated good guys actually failing to their own dramatic flaws? Fart noises.

Shady admiral type figure who embodied every "bad leader" trope in the book? Good all along, bro!

All these galactic powers being played against each other for fools by shadowy war profiteer elites? Fart noises.

Shady kinda-sorta rogue with more seemingly going on under the hood who pointed that out? Bad all along, bro!

Rey being susceptible to the dark side and having to potentially face her own personal demons, after becoming disillusioned by Luke? Fart noises.

The central character of the sequel trilogy actually having substantial character development and a definable arc across the scope of an entire movie? Naw, bro!

Kylo and Rey smashing everything to create a new order free from the dichotomy of light and dark, and external manipulation? Fart noises.

Kylo finding a third way for himself that didn't involve becoming stereotypical megalomaniac bad guy at least? Naw, bro!

Finn actually having a meaningful character arc with its introduction, growth, and conclusion that would have been dramatically appropriate and poignant? Fart noises!

Finn having any kind of character arc? Landspeedus yeetus, bro!