Spider-Man: No Way Home

[SilentPony]

Not that I cared much to begin with, but after the fiasco with The Dark Knight, I really did not give a rat's ass about the Oscars. It's nothing more than a special club, with people they think they're doing something important, but they're really not. Those in charge acting as if they are and patting themselves on the back. No different from the Game Awards.

Its also incredibly political and filled with backroom deals. I guarantee the #MeToo movement hasn't made the impact they think in Hollywood and that young actresses even now are having to do "favors" to make sure they get on screen or their movie is either nominated or wins.

 

[Silvanus]

Its also incredibly political and filled with backroom deals. I guarantee the #MeToo movement hasn't made the impact they think in Hollywood and that young actresses even now are having to do "favors" to make sure they get on screen or their movie is either nominated or wins.

And I guarantee most people actively involved in the #MeToo movement are well aware these things still go on, and do not believe they have already fixed it.

 

[SilentPony]

And I guarantee most people actively involved in the #MeToo movement are well aware these things still go on, and do not believe they have already fixed it.

And that will always be the Achilles's heel of the #MeToo movement, that they can only go after has-been directors and producers, never anyone currently working for Marvel or Disney.

 

[Piscian]

I usually side with the MCU isn't art crowd, but I do think there's some serious argument for No Way Home.

Spoiler: Best actors

One I'd throw out there would be for either Tobey mcquire or Willam Defoe as best supporting actors. Their performances elevated the film far beyond what it would have been without them. There's several scenes where they feel like they're in a better movie than anyone else. It's funny I was commenting to Darrin that I felt like I just wanted Tom Holland to stick around long enough become an older grizzled Spider-Man and the minute Toby came on screen he encapsulated a Spiderman audiences have been waiting to see since his inception, no shade to Chris pine and Jake Johnson, but this one was it. This is our mature life tested Spider-Man

Willam was absolutely terrifying. When he switched into green goblin I know I and the crowd were excitedly expecting cartoons Sam raimi green goblin, but this was again something unseen. It's like everyone else was in a Spiderman movie and Willam was in Se7en.

I also think it could get there for special effects and possibly makeup.

That said I concur the Oscars are corrupt and meaningless. Since the leaks about the bribing and campaigning I couldn't care less what the Oscars have to say about anything.

 

[Silvanus]

And that will always be the Achilles's heel of the #MeToo movement, that they can only go after has-been directors and producers, never anyone currently working for Marvel or Disney.

People who have suffered abuse have frequently, and very notably, accused people who are still active and working in very large companies.

 

[twistedmic]

Sony and Marvel are apparently getting a bit big for their boots.

They are now starting their campaign to try and get No Way Home nominated for an Oscar - including Best Picture.

Look, No Way Home was a blast - it was probably the most fun that I have had in the cinema ever - but I wouldn't ever say it was Oscar worthy.

But, seeing as 2016's Suicide Squad is an Oscar Winning movie (it was for hair and makeup), I guess anything is possible.

Given what 2016 Suicide Squad achieved with their makeup, Killer Croc and those weird and creepy eyeball monsters, I would say they deserved that Oscar win.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Given what 2016 Suicide Squad achieved with their makeup, Killer Croc and those weird and creepy eyeball monsters, I would say they deserved that Oscar win.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic... Killer Croc was fine but I thought the tattoo makeup was horrendous, and that's already ignoring their actual designs.

 

[twistedmic]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic... Killer Croc was fine but I thought the tattoo makeup was horrendous, and that's already ignoring their actual designs.

Killer Croc was done with makeup. The Eyes of the Adversary were done with make up.
That’s what got them the Oscar.

They didn’t get the best makeup Oscar for the tattoos on Joker, Harley or El Diablo.

 

[gorfias]

There was a ton of stuff in the movie requiring one to suspend disbelief. And I thought it heavily morally confused. It does some nuttiness to the timeline that seems whackey.

But suspend your disbelief. Don't analyze it too much and you have a very fun movie that gives the fans what they want.

As to the movies ending:

Spoiler

It allows Tom Holland to see 3 as a capstone of his movies that can now end, or be a sort of reboot or give us a re-imagined Spiderman. I think a Spider Gwen in the Avengers MCU a real possibility.

 

[SilentPony]

There was a ton of stuff in the movie requiring one to suspend disbelief. And I thought it heavily morally confused. It does some nuttiness to the timeline that seems whackey.

But suspend your disbelief. Don't analyze it too much and you have a very fun movie that gives the fans what they want.

As to the movies ending:

Spoiler

It allows Tom Holland to see 3 as a capstone of his movies that can now end, or be a sort of reboot or give us a re-imagined Spiderman. I think a Spider Gwen in the Avengers MCU a real possibility.

Electro does say there has to be a black Spiderman somewhere, and if I recall in Homecoming one of the criminal mooks Peter interreacts with mentions having a little brother named Miles.
So the groundwork is at least hinted at for Miles Morales to come in as the new Spiderman. And that's assuming Tom Holland and Zendaya saying they're stepping back from acting to have a family is legit, and not part of their contract negotiations to ask for even more money, which given Spiderman No Way Home was both the highest grossing movie of the pandemic, and made over a billion, I think its entirely likely Marvel and Sony will cave and give them whatever they want.

 

[gorfias]

Electro does say there has to be a black Spiderman somewhere, and if I recall in Homecoming one of the criminal mooks Peter interreacts with mentions having a little brother named Miles.
So the groundwork is at least hinted at for Miles Morales to come in as the new Spiderman. And that's assuming Tom Holland and Zendaya saying they're stepping back from acting to have a family is legit, and not part of their contract negotiations to ask for even more money, which given Spiderman No Way Home was both the highest grossing movie of the pandemic, and made over a billion, I think its entirely likely Marvel and Sony will cave and give them whatever they want.

Agreed. If there is a 4th Holland Spiderman movie,

Spoiler

A huge problem I've had with Holland's take has been that he's been Iron Spiderman. We see scraps near a sewing machine at the movies end. I think we'll have something closer to traditional spiderman in a 4th movie. I hope he leaves his old friends alone though. I disliked in the Garfield movies, she swears to not get Gwen killed, then, right away, kinda does so anyway. That would give room for things like an intro to Black Cat.

 

[SilentPony]

Agreed. If there is a 4th Holland Spiderman movie,

Spoiler

A huge problem I've had with Holland's take has been that he's been Iron Spiderman. We see scraps near a sewing machine at the movies end. I think we'll have something closer to traditional spiderman in a 4th movie. I hope he leaves his old friends alone though. I disliked in the Garfield movies, she swears to not get Gwen killed, then, right away, kinda does so anyway. That would give room for things like an intro to Black Cat.

Spoiler

See I take the opposite view. I want his friends to figure out what happened and get back together with him as soon as possible. I even said in an earlier post that the first 15-20mins of the 4th movie should be MJ figuring it out. She said she would figure it out again if Peter didn't tell her, and Peter didn't tell her, so I want to see her figure it out again. As much as I like Tom Holland, and I do, Zendaya's MJ is handsdown the best character from the Home trilogy. Mary-Jane never did anything for me because she was just kinda a ditzy redhead who was really pretty, but had no personality outside of being really pretty and something for Peter to pine over. Gwen I at least believed there was chemistry between her and Peter. Zendaya's MJ blows them both out of the water. Getting rid of her was a huge mistake in No Way Home, especially with Peter reneging on his promise and basically undoing his entire character arc.
And we should just skip the sad jealously scene where Peter sees her on a date with another dude, and skip their kiss in the rain, and skip Zendaya showing up at his apartment door having left her entire life to be with him. All that trashy nonsense. And skip the Diet-Catwoman. Lets just do one Peter Parker who isn't destined to be sad and alone and miserable and a liar.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Spoiler

See I take the opposite view. I want his friends to figure out what happened and get back together with him as soon as possible. I even said in an earlier post that the first 15-20mins of the 4th movie should be MJ figuring it out. She said she would figure it out again if Peter didn't tell her, and Peter didn't tell her, so I want to see her figure it out again. As much as I like Tom Holland, and I do, Zendaya's MJ is handsdown the best character from the Home trilogy. Mary-Jane never did anything for me because she was just kinda a ditzy redhead who was really pretty, but had no personality outside of being really pretty and something for Peter to pine over. Gwen I at least believed there was chemistry between her and Peter. Zendaya's MJ blows them both out of the water. Getting rid of her was a huge mistake in No Way Home, especially with Peter reneging on his promise and basically undoing his entire character arc.
And we should just skip the sad jealously scene where Peter sees her on a date with another dude, and skip their kiss in the rain, and skip Zendaya showing up at his apartment door having left her entire life to be with him. All that trashy nonsense. And skip the Diet-Catwoman. Lets just do one Peter Parker who isn't destined to be sad and alone and miserable and a liar.

Being sad, miserable, and alone is the crux of Spider-man's character though. That's the entire point of "with great power comes great responsibility." Because he is Spider-man he neglects the rest of his life because he feels responsible for keeping New York safe.

He's poor, and lonely, afraid to get close to anyone because he doesn't want them to become targets, and as many times as he wishes he had a normal life he can't walk away from being Spider-man because of his sense of responsibility. He always chooses being Spider-man over being Peter Parker no matter how many times that choice bites him in the ass.

Without the idea that with great power comes great responsibility Spider-man is a fundamentally different character.

 

[SilentPony]

Being sad, miserable, and alone is the crux of Spider-man's character though. That's the entire point of "with great power comes great responsibility." Because he is Spider-man he neglects the rest of his life because he feels responsible for keeping New York safe.

He's poor, and lonely, afraid to get close to anyone because he doesn't want them to become targets, and as many times as he wishes he had a normal life he can't walk away from being Spider-man because of his sense of responsibility. He always chooses being Spider-man over being Peter Parker no matter how many times that choice bites him in the ass.

Without the idea that with great power comes great responsibility Spider-man is a fundamentally different character.

But the whole point of that is he has to have the responsibilities, ie the friends and family. Peter in this one chose the "Great power" part but not the "great responsibilities" part. The whole point of Spiderman is him learning to accept being Spiderman and being Peter Parker. That's why comics like the one No Way Home is based off of, One More Day, are so universally hated, because they reset Peter's entire growth and arc and just had him be the poor, single, miserable Spiderman all over again, despite that storyline being decades out of date. Just like Peter isn't in High school anymore, he's not just some poor lonely kid being poor and lonely. He's supposed to actually grow, and his friends and loved-ones are supposed to grow with him. Instead this movie has Peter completely undoing his arc by deciding unilaterally he knows better than everyone else and refusing to tell his friends and family the truth. The whole point of No Way Home was Peter learning not to play God and just accept his role as Peter and Spiderman. Until the end when he decides that no, you don't really need the responsibility, he can just be care free Spiderman without the burden of people to protect.
And all it does is set up the 4th movie as just a retread and trying to get back to the status quo, just so they can attempt to move on and tell another story in the 5th movie.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

But the whole point of that is he has to have the responsibilities, ie the friends and family. Peter in this one chose the "Great power" part but not the "great responsibilities" part. The whole point of Spiderman is him learning to accept being Spiderman and being Peter Parker. That's why comics like the one No Way Home is based off of, One More Day, are so universally hated, because they reset Peter's entire growth and arc and just had him be the poor, single, miserable Spiderman all over again, despite that storyline being decades out of date. Just like Peter isn't in High school anymore, he's not just some poor lonely kid being poor and lonely. He's supposed to actually grow, and his friends and loved-ones are supposed to grow with him. Instead this movie has Peter completely undoing his arc by deciding unilaterally he knows better than everyone else and refusing to tell his friends and family the truth. The whole point of No Way Home was Peter learning not to play God and just accept his role as Peter and Spiderman. Until the end when he decides that no, you don't really need the responsibility, he can just be care free Spiderman without the burden of people to protect.
And all it does is set up the 4th movie as just a retread and trying to get back to the status quo, just so they can attempt to move on and tell another story in the 5th movie.

Well...no.

The responsibility that Peter chose is protecting New York, protecting abstract strangers.

Yes he plays god at the end of the movie, but it's not for a "return to the status quo" it's to protect his universe from being torn apart at the cost of his relationships with the only loved ones he has left.

Also, it's not a return to the status quo because this trilogy has never had Peter Parker playing the lone Spider-man. It's had him supported during this entire superhero career, by Tony Stark, by Happy, by Ned, by MJ, by the other Spider-men. He's literally never had to fight alone.

It's a return to status quo in that it's a return to "traditional comic book Spider-man" but not so much for this specific version of the character who hasn't been presented as living that status quo before.

 

[SilentPony]

Well...no.

The responsibility that Peter chose is protecting New York, protecting abstract strangers.

Yes he plays god at the end of the movie, but it's not for a "return to the status quo" it's to protect his universe from being torn apart at the cost of his relationships with the only loved ones he has left.

Also, it's not a return to the status quo because this trilogy has never had Peter Parker playing the lone Spider-man. It's had him supported during this entire superhero career, by Tony Stark, by Happy, by Ned, by MJ, by the other Spider-men. He's literally never had to fight alone.

It's a return to status quo in that it's a return to "traditional comic book Spider-man" but not so much for this specific version of the character who hasn't been presented as living that status quo before.

I agree. It took an actually interesting Peter Parker with a unique storyline and plot hooks, and reduced him to the out of date, and overused bog standard Spiderman that is so boring when Marvel comics reboots Spiderman they don't even bother going back that far because there are decades of character development.
Also we already did the poor, no friends saving strangers Spiderman in the MCU. Remember in Civil War when Tony goes to recreuit him and they talk about how Spiderman has been saving the little guy and looking out for New York this entire time? And how we skipped Uncle Ben dying and Peter being bitten? We skipped the boring shit and went straight into the cross overs and growth arcs.
No Way Home is a return to the Spiderman status quo of no friends, no family, no responsibilities, just poor and miserable. Page 1 of Issue 1 of all Spiderman comics before they start the actual plot.
Remember how cool it was to see Spiderman in the Civil War trailer? Like holy shit, there's Spiderman alongside Iron Man and Black Panther and Captain America and fighting Falcon and the Winter Soldier! Holy crap, that's just like the good comics!
Now No Way Home swings in like "No, no, none of that now. Spiderman is poor and lonely and pines after a girl named MJ and stops people from robbing sandwich stores. None of this other heroes and larger connected Marvel universe thing."

I would be surprised if Spiderman 4 has a flashback to the spider bite or Uncle Ben dying, just to fully spit in the face of Pater's MCU arc.

 

[SilentPony]

Also unrelated question to whether or not No Way Home is regressive or not. and this question should have come to me sooner, and the only reason it didn't is I assume how much I like the actor and character, but...

Spoiler

Where does Venom go in the post credit scene? Presumably the order of events are 1. Venom is in the Sony universe in a hotel room, 2. Dr. Strange botches the spell and brings him into the MCU, 3. Venom is at the bar figuring out about the MCU, and finally 4. The new spell sends Venom back to the Sony verse.
Except the spell specifically brought people who already knew Spiderman was Peter Parker into the MCU. And Venom doesn't learn about Peter Parker until he's already be transported over. So...did Venom get transported to a 2nd reality in the end of Venom 2, learned about Peter Parker, and then got transported over to a third reality? Is there another Tom Holland Spiderman out there? Also if Venom knew about Peter Parker, does the little symbiote keep its memory, or forget? And why did it get to stay? Did any other part of anyone else get to stay? And why can't we have nice things, like Tom Hardy's Venom and Tom Holland's Spiderman fighting and teaming up?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I agree. It took an actually interesting Peter Parker with a unique storyline and plot hooks, and reduced him to the out of date, and overused bog standard Spiderman that is so boring when Marvel comics reboots Spiderman they don't even bother going back that far because there are decades of character development.
Also we already did the poor, no friends saving strangers Spiderman in the MCU. Remember in Civil War when Tony goes to recreuit him and they talk about how Spiderman has been saving the little guy and looking out for New York this entire time? And how we skipped Uncle Ben dying and Peter being bitten? We skipped the boring shit and went straight into the cross overs and growth arcs.
No Way Home is a return to the Spiderman status quo of no friends, no family, no responsibilities, just poor and miserable. Page 1 of Issue 1 of all Spiderman comics before they start the actual plot.
Remember how cool it was to see Spiderman in the Civil War trailer? Like holy shit, there's Spiderman alongside Iron Man and Black Panther and Captain America and fighting Falcon and the Winter Soldier! Holy crap, that's just like the good comics!
Now No Way Home swings in like "No, no, none of that now. Spiderman is poor and lonely and pines after a girl named MJ and stops people from robbing sandwich stores. None of this other heroes and larger connected Marvel universe thing."

I would be surprised if Spiderman 4 has a flashback to the spider bite or Uncle Ben dying, just to fully spit in the face of Pater's MCU arc.

People like broke Spider-Man, it's what makes him so relatable and it's a part of what made him the most popular character in the world. When you give Spider-man access to Stark tech, nanobots, luxury condos that he doesn't pay for, he stops being the Spider-man that people like.

 

[BrawlMan]

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