A Group of 270 Scientists, Doctors, etc. Submit Open Letter to Spotify Regarding Joe Rogan (JRE)

CriticalGaming

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) I also COULD use this anecdote saying that it's not true.
Anecdote's are exceptions to the rule, thus proving the rule. Because for every person that's like your friend, there are 9 other people that shake the virus like it's no big deal. remember we are still talking about a virus that's 98% non-fatal even without a vaccine.

Though I do fear the day something akin to the Black Death hits us again.
 

Cheetodust

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Now when Rogan talks about working out, you can probably reason that he knows WTF he's talking about there,
I would take a lot of what Rogan says in that regard with a pinch of salt too. The bro science is strong with him. I would also be sketchy of anyone who says kettlebells are the only way to train and also happens to sell kettlebells.

And (this one is purely my opinion) but I assume that any man insecure enough to lie about his height as much as Joe Rogan does is definitely insecure enough to take the funny supplements.

Also, I forgot, have we mentioned that Rogan is a full on moon landing truther?
 

Silvanus

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Oh come now, your original and unedited post, while maybe sharp, was absolutely fair and accurate.

Although I guess if you were trying to tone down the harshness, then I really should too. Especially given how at least some of my aggressive tone was due to some personal baggage in relation to this place. Baggage which I wouldn't expect anyone here to have anything close to a clue about since I've kept most of it to myself.
Fair enough. And yeah, I did reread my original post and thought it sounded assholish.

I should put my own attitude aside sometimes. Welcome back.
 

Ender910

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Fair enough. And yeah, I did reread my original post and thought it sounded assholish.

I should put my own attitude aside sometimes. Welcome back.
Aye, I should too. And at the very least I should stop bottling stuff up like I did. That's not to say I should be an aggressive jerk like before, but I should speak my mind a bit more. It's just grown increasingly intimidating to do that in some places these days, on a variety of issues. Particularly with how it seems like some things have gotten rather one-sided. That's largely what sparked my one comment. Well that, and fully expecting anything I say to be dismissed out of hand.
 

Trunkage

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Aye, tis fairly obvious. And I'm aware of how easy it would be to crosscheck other comments I've made, although I admit I'm a little confused at what you're specifically trying to get at here.
You have a stand out name. I couldn't tell you if you changed your avatar or not. But that I cant remember

You might notice Leg End lurking around with a few likes. Cant remember their avatar but I can remember some discussion they had around 2018ish. Leg End - cricket - I can connecr that to some stuff they said.

To be fair, it might be a general take on you, and I cant remember nuanance. And it's been a while so you likely changed. So I'm likely to be incorrect
 

Trunkage

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Anecdote's are exceptions to the rule, thus proving the rule. Because for every person that's like your friend, there are 9 other people that shake the virus like it's no big deal. remember we are still talking about a virus that's 98% non-fatal even without a vaccine.

Though I do fear the day something akin to the Black Death hits us again.
As a person who caught covid but never saw a hospital and is now 'fully recovered' ... it's still effecting me. Coughing fits, tiredness, sore joints. Nothing major but just draining having to live this way

Edit: Some memory loss as well. Or maybe better stated as quickness of recall... as proven by this edit
 
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CaitSeith

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remember we are still talking about a virus that's 98% non-fatal even without a vaccine.
98% WITH medical care. With no medical services available, the estimated fatalities would be between 8% to 10%. Also, the long-term effects discovered so far for Covid seem to have an important impact on quality of life (ex. fatigue, pain, increased risk of blood clots and blood vessel damage); not to mention those who needed ICU to survive have a high chance of suffer PTSD, depression and anxiety.

However all of this would be meaningless if Covid wasn't very contagious and cases always were low. But it is highly contagious, and the need for so many ICU puts a severe load on the medical services; to the point that healthcare is no longer available to the public, and it risks it to the point of ER itself becoming unavailable.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Not to mention when there's big spikes that cause lots of absentees in other industries (and the PM announces he wants to get kids to drive forklifts to fix this if you're really unlucky).
 
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CriticalGaming

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98% WITH medical care.
You telling me that 379,300,000 people (98% of total cases worldwide) all survived due to medial care? And every single one of those people is still suffering after-effect or "long-covid"?

I don't think that's true, especially since a lot of cases were very mild or asymptomatic, and many people were told to just stay home unless certain thresholds were met.

I know a lot of people that have gotten covid at this point, I don't know any of them that continue to have any sort of long-covid symptoms. And I can't really find any certain studies on the % of people who will have lingering health issues due to covid at this time. I think that "long-covid" will turn to be existing health conditions that an individual might have had or been at high risk of developing and covid merely brought that forth. Covid encouraged these health issues, but they aren't exactly effects from covid itself.
 

Cheetodust

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You telling me that 379,300,000 people (98% of total cases worldwide) all survived due to medial care? And every single one of those people is still suffering after-effect or "long-covid"?
Jesus fucking christ.

With no medical services available, the estimated fatalities would be between 8% to 10%.
You know, as opposed to the 2% fatalities implied by "98% non fatal". The only reason the people in ICU didn't die was BECAUSE they were in the ICU.That shouldn't be a contentious point.

What Caitseth is saying is that without medical care fatalities would have been 4-5x higher and the people in the ICU were taking up space that could have been used for shit that we don't have a freely available vaccine for.

Like here you're either being disingenuous or just straight up not reading what is being said to you.

Edit: also who the fuck thinks 1 in 50 odds of dying from a highly infectious disease is good odds?
 
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tstorm823

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Like here you're either being disingenuous or just straight up not reading what is being said to you.
It is both possible and understandable to read what was written, write an honest response, and make a math mistake.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Del Bigtree ended his closing speech at last week’s anti-vaccine mandate rally in Washington with a message, bellowed to a few thousand rallygoers and the news organizations assembled on a riser in front of him.

“We are no longer a fringe group,” he proclaimed.

The pandemic has been a boon for the anti-vaccine community, with Bigtree’s Informed Consent Action Network (ICAN), one of the country’s best-funded anti-vaccine organizations, among the biggest beneficiaries, according to newly filed tax records.

ICAN reported $5.5 million in revenue in 2020, a 60 percent increase over the previous year. The funding underscores how lucrative the pandemic has been for a handful of groups that spread health misinformation and undermine public faith in vaccines. Those donations primarily come from private donors, including through Facebook fundraisers.

Other large anti-vaccine organizations have similarly thrived during the pandemic. As an Associated Press investigation reported, the Children’s Health Defense, led by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., more than doubled its revenue in 2020, to $6.8 million.

While misinformation researchers know that the pandemic has boosted the profiles of many anti-vaccination efforts, the ICAN documents show how these organizations have also benefited financially.

ICAN has been a juggernaut since its formation in 2016. Led by Bigtree, a former television producer and anti-vaccine propaganda filmmaker, the nonprofit group initially made a name for itself filing Freedom of Information Act lawsuits against federal health agencies in an apparent unfulfilled quest to find and report secret scientific evidence that might disprove the safety of vaccines or prove long-discredited theories that vaccines cause harm, including autism.

ICAN, which provided the tax filings to NBC News, did not return a request for comment.

Fueled by claims that the scientific community, the pharmaceutical industry and media organizations are conspiring to withhold these so-called dangers about vaccines, ICAN launched its internet show, "The HighWire," in 2017. The show, hosted by Bigtree, featured a rotating cast of the major figures in the anti-vaccination movement.

In 2020, the program pivoted almost exclusively to Covid content. Bigtree says the program attracts 6 million viewers per episode, a figure which ICAN did not provide evidence for and NBC News could not confirm. According to data from Similarweb, a digital analytics tool, The Highwire’s website is among the most popular “alternative and natural medicine sites” in the world, and reaches just over 1 million visits per month.

According to tax filings, ICAN paid Bigtree $146,000 in 2017. By 2020, it was paying him $221,000. Bigtree is also paid for speaking engagements. ICAN’s website describes him as “one of the most sought-after public speakers in the natural health arena, often gathering audiences in the thousands who travel from around the world to be inspired by his unique blend of passion, wit, and scientific expertise.” A 2020 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation investigation reported that Bigtree charged $3,000 per appearance, not including airfare and hotel.

“It’s worth it these days,” his manager told an undercover CBC reporter. “He’s pretty in demand.”

In an emailed response to NBC News, Bigtree said he doesn’t charge a speaking fee for unticketed events like rallies at state capitals.

As in previous years, the bulk of ICAN’s expenditures went to Siri & Glimstad, a New York law firm that has advertised its services challenging vaccine mandates on anti-vaccine groups’ websites. ICAN paid $2.1 million to Siri & Glimstad in 2020, according to the tax filings.

The money
While ICAN had nearly doubled in size and revenue each year, according to its available tax records, its success wasn’t assured. At the end of 2019, the organization — and the anti-vaccine movement itself — faced a new set of challenges.

New York philanthropists Bernard and Lisa Selz, who had provided the bulk of ICAN’s funding (around $3 million from 2016 to 2019, according to Selz Foundation tax records) appeared to halt donations in 2019 after The Washington Post reported on their contributions to anti-vaccine organizations.

In 2019, a $2.4 million donation — 70 percent of ICAN's total revenue that year — came from a donor-advised fund, a kind of philanthropic middleman, sometimes used by donors as a means of anonymizing their donation.

The Selzs did not return a request for comment, and there is no public evidence that links them to these donations. Bigtree said in an email that ICAN relies on “several very generous donors,” but declined to comment on their identities, saying donors are “protected by law.”


The largest listed donations in ICAN’s 2020 tax filings are two gifts of $150,000. ICAN redacted the donors’ names.

During the pandemic, ICAN seems to have shifted its fundraising model.

Unlike its contemporaries in the anti-vaccination media, the HighWire doesn’t have advertisers, and there is no evidence of Bigtree selling supplements or other products common in the natural health world. Instead, ICAN relies on individual supporters. Episodes of the HighWire are punctuated with pleas for donations from Bigtree. In November, ICAN launched a fundraiser asking for donors to contribute $100 to $500 for personalized bricks that would pave a road from ICAN’s headquarters to the HighWire’s studio, both in Austin, Texas.

“That sponsor was you,” he said in one promotional video.

More than 1,000 bricks were sold, according to ICAN’s creative director, Patrick Layton, who reported the sales in an update posted to Facebook.

A portion of those donations still come via Facebook. The platform hosts fundraisers for ICAN, which brought in $13,500 in 2020 and at least $23,000 in 2021, according to an NBC News analysis of the Facebook campaigns. Facebook did not respond to a request for comment.

ICAN also received $165,000 in federal loans from the Paycheck Protection Program in May 2020. In its application, it said the money would be used for employee salaries.

Bigtree said in an email that the government had “forgiven the loan in full.”

“The federal loan definitely came at a critical time. We might not have made it without the government’s support,” he said.

The message
ICAN faced an additional hurdle in 2019 following a measles outbreak in Samoa that killed 83 people (mostly children) and a series of regional outbreaks in the U.S. After those outbreaks, the social media platforms that anti-vaccine groups depended on to spread their messages and attract new followers began to clamp down on misinformation, disallowing ads and throttling their pages’ reach.

Without funding and with their platforms in jeopardy, at the very moment when the future of ICAN seemed most unsure, the pandemic struck.

At various points during the pandemic, Bigtree has spread a variety of misleading or entirely false claims, including that mask wearing is dangerous but Covid is not, and that people should rise up against the government, break quarantine, willingly infect themselves and then use treatments that have not been proven effective against Covid-19.

When presented with these claims, Bigtree disputed the conclusion that he or ICAN spread misinformation.

ICAN tapped into a new online audience with the messages, according to Renée DiResta, research manager at the Stanford Internet Observatory, who tracked the growth of anti-vaccine groups during the pandemic, and called it “their moment.”

YouTube was the first to act, removing seven of Bigtree’s videos under its Covid misinformation policy last summer including “MASKS ARE A JOKE,” and “WE NEED TO CATCH THAT COLD!” By August 2020, ICAN’s channel, which had 250,000 subscribers, was terminated completely.

Facebook removed The HighWire’s 360,000-follower page in November 2020, citing repeated violations of its policy against misinformation that can cause physical harm. In February 2021, Facebook removed The Highwire’s Instagram account, which had more than 200,000 followers.

The loss was enormous, according to ICAN, which responded by suing both companies in federal court, claiming the platforms were “state actors” and that content moderation violated the nonprofit group’s freedom of speech.

“It is losing its ability to reach billions of potential viewers,“ the complaint stated. The platforms “severely curtailed ICAN’s ability to reach its followers and raise funds to carry out its charitable mission.” A federal judge rejected ICAN’s claims and dismissed the case last week, concluding that Facebook and YouTube are not government actors.

Despite ICAN's claims in court filings, Bigtree contends that the pandemic has been good for business. In his speech at January’s anti-vaccine rally, before leading the Washington crowd in chants of “freedom,” Bigtree said, “My audience is now bigger than yours and it’s growing everyday.”
 

Cheetodust

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It is both possible and understandable to read what was written, write an honest response, and make a math mistake.
The math mistake being

"8-10% fatality rate without medical intervention. "
"So you're saying everyone would have died without medical intervention?"

Nope don't buy it for a second. Didn't read it or willfully misrepresented it.


Edit: and considering all but one out of context sentence was snipped to make it look like Caitseth said what critical implied I'm going to assume it was done intentionally.

Wasn't that just his character in News Radio?
Sadly no. I think he has since accepted it happened but I haven't been able to confirm. I've just seen people in comments sections saying he believes it did happen now.

 
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CaitSeith

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You telling me that 379,300,000 people (98% of total cases worldwide) all survived due to medial care?
No.
98% WITH medical care. With no medical services available, the estimated fatalities would be between 8% to 10%.
Doing the math, it means 92% to 90% survival without medical care.

I don't think that's true, especially since a lot of cases were very mild or asymptomatic, and many people were told to just stay home unless certain thresholds were met.
Just because you think it isn't true, it doesn't make it untrue (I wish you were right, but sadly that's not the case).


Most people who have coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) recover completely within a few weeks. But some people — even those who had mild versions of the disease — continue to experience symptoms after their initial recovery.
 

CriticalGaming

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The thing about this article is it is just a generic summary. It suggests things that MAY happen, or that CAN happen. But not things that DO happen. It doesn't list any statistics, it doesn't list any examples of numbers of patients experiencing any of these things that CAN/MAY/MIGHT happen within a person. And it isn't even written by a specific doctor or scientist who has research examples or citations for any of this information. It's simply written "by the mayo clinic". Whereas other articles actually have doctors specifically giving the information.

Not saying that the article is invalid exactly. It just reads as too generic a thing for it to outline any specific results. It would be like telling someone "Alcohol CAN cause a hangover", it can and it might, but hangover's aren't 100% because there are a lot of other factors that dictate the chances of that happening. Just like i'm sure there are a lot of factors that can result in the long-covid things.
 

Cheetodust

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The thing about this article is it is just a generic summary. It suggests things that MAY happen, or that CAN happen. But not things that DO happen. It doesn't list any statistics, it doesn't list any examples of numbers of patients experiencing any of these things that CAN/MAY/MIGHT happen within a person. And it isn't even written by a specific doctor or scientist who has research examples or citations for any of this information. It's simply written "by the mayo clinic". Whereas other articles actually have doctors specifically giving the information.

Not saying that the article is invalid exactly. It just reads as too generic a thing for it to outline any specific results. It would be like telling someone "Alcohol CAN cause a hangover", it can and it might, but hangover's aren't 100% because there are a lot of other factors that dictate the chances of that happening. Just like i'm sure there are a lot of factors that can result in the long-covid things.
Can or may are the accurate words to use. "Does" or "will" implies it always happens. Cancer may kill you. It also may not. Are you going to also contest that cancer kills people because it would be wrong to say "cancer will kill you."

Also selectively edited again and ignoring the point about 8-10% because you're incapable of engaging genuinely.
 
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