Why You Should Have Your Eye On Florida

[tstorm823]

No I don't because neither the governor nor the attorney general are. You might notice in my quote of the governor referencing the AG paper very un-qualified statements like "it is already against the law" and "imposes reporting". There are no uncertain terms here, they only exist in your head.

Well, when lawyers get in front of a judge and argue this case, you can come back and tell me they're wrong too.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Well, when lawyers get in front of a judge and argue this case, you can come back and tell me they're wrong too.

Just because somebody (theoretically) stops them doesn't mean that this isn't exactly what conservatives are trying. You don't get to claim you weren't trying to do a murder just because somebody stopped you.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well, when lawyers get in front of a judge and argue this case, you can come back and tell me they're wrong too.

Sure

Attorney General Ken Paxton appeals restraining order that blocked state agency from investigating trans teen’s family

A Texas judge was scheduled to consider a statewide injunction on investigations of parents over obtaining gender-affirming care. The appeal now puts the hearing on hold.

www.texastribune.org

Ken Paxton is already filing an appeal in an ongoing case involved with this very decision and paper, showing that he doesn't buy into your argument already. Ken Paxton agrees that all instances of transgender therapy constitute child abuse, you are literally the only one trying to pretend he didn't say that.

 

[Trunkage]

The question that was asked of the AG was if gender transition procedures constitute child abuse, with an explicit rider that sometimes procedures are medically necessary. The AG responded that elective medical procedures with risks of bodily harm (including sterilization) could be child abuse. To the disdain of the other people arguing with me, the opinion at no point says any specific thing automatically is. In fact, if gender transition treatments can be child abuse, the rhetorical implication of that statement is that they also could not be child abuse, otherwise they would have used the word "is". And if it can go either way, it falls back onto the judgment of individuals whether they believe there might be abuse. Why my example is so relevant, a bruised child does not necessitate calling CPS if you don't suspect they came from abuse. Which means the suggestion that everyone is mandated to report all trans kids is overblown nonsense.

Just to be clear. Any gender reassignment surgery is 18+ everywhere. In the US, Australia, Denmark, England and Iran. No doctor is going to let that happen

So the only things we are worried about is HRT and puberty blockers

Are those the concern for you?

Well, when lawyers get in front of a judge and argue this case, you can come back and tell me they're wrong too.

Good news. Already happened

 

[tstorm823]

Ken Paxton is already filing an appeal in an ongoing case involved with this very decision and paper, showing that he doesn't buy into your argument already. Ken Paxton agrees that all instances of transgender therapy constitute child abuse, you are literally the only one trying to pretend he didn't say that.

Do you honestly not see the jump in your logic? The suit and the appeal are about whether a singular child abuse investigation can take place on the basis of gender affirmative care. The argument is about whether that can be considered child abuse, not whether it must be considered so in all cases.

They open case -> judge says "no, you can't do that" -> Paxton says "yes, we can" and appeals. You people have, all on your own, converted an open possibility of abuse into an absolute claim, and then interpreted that absolute claim as a mission statement to put parents in jail. You did that.

So the only things we are worried about is HRT and puberty blockers

Are those the concern for you?

I can very easily imagine a scenario where they would be. Like, the existence of child beauty pageants makes pretty clear people do messed up things with their kids, it is not far removed from that to imagine a "progressive" couple whose child has a tenuous grasp of gender and sex, the parents excitedly identify that as transgender for them, and they get a likeminded doctor to sign off on hormone therapy when they reach the appropriate age.

 

[Buyetyen]

I can very easily imagine a scenario where they would be. Like, the existence of child beauty pageants makes pretty clear people do messed up things with their kids, it is not far removed from that to imagine a "progressive" couple whose child has a tenuous grasp of gender and sex, the parents excitedly identify that as transgender for them, and they get a likeminded doctor to sign off on hormone therapy when they reach the appropriate age.

So, if I'm reading this right, you're arguing against a thing that hasn't actually been done. And the irony is lost on you.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Do you honestly not see the jump in your logic? The suit and the appeal are about whether a singular child abuse investigation can take place on the basis of gender affirmative care. The argument is about whether that can be considered child abuse, not whether it must be considered so in all cases.

Well, when lawyers get in front of a judge and argue this case, you can come back and tell me they're wrong too.

Which is it? Pick a lane. The judge tried to move to file an injunction against the governor's directive, but was stopped by Paxton's appeal, you don't get to hide behind it being "one case". There are already multiple investigations open to charge parents and doctors with child abuse, at least one has already made it to court, flying in the face of everything you're saying. But you're going to Don Quixote this all day aren't you?

 

[Buyetyen]

But you're going to Don Quixote this all day aren't you?

The alt-right know better than to play defense, because when they do they always lose. Better to just keep lying and flooding the zone with bullshit.

 

[Gergar12]

The problem with republicans is their positions have stayed the same socially as in the 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, but have gotten better marketing. The few republicans that have tried to liberalize their positions on gay marriage like Milo have gotten shunned, and forced to retract their LGBTQ status, they used LGBTQ, minority race allies cynically. On race, they have used the crime wave, and defund the police backlash to do a steathly push for more right-wing killings of activists, but have done so somewhat legally tried right-wing courts and judges made by the federalist society.

Economically their weakest policy area has meant no more marketing of tax cuts, it's meant they won't tell you or even tell you the opposite, but once in power they will cut taxes for the rich but will reveal it only once elected. Which has meant they look like they are for the status quo, but in reality, they are looking for even lower taxes on the rich and cutting critical government services while putting the spotlight on the worst-polling policies of the progressives, and ambushing gaffs made by centrist democrats due to the short memory, and attention span of the average voter.

In education, their public face is for teaching math, science, and history 'objectively' while behind the scenes they are using CRT to steadily ban books on racism, civil rights, and counterculture along with books by minority groups of sexual orientation, race, gender, and though.

We could be looking at a republican government with the social positions of the 1950s, and the economic position of the 2016-2020s.

I hope people have a way to stop this.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And I suggest for everyone else who tstorm tries to argue against, just quote governor Greg Abbott at him.

"Consistent with our correspondence in August 2021, the Office of the Attorney General (OAG) has now confirmed in the enclosed opinion that a number of so-called “sex change” procedures constitute child abuse under existing Texas law. Because the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) is responsible for protecting children from abuse, I hereby direct your agency to conduct a prompt and thorough investigation of any reported instances of these abusive procedures in the State of Texas.

As OAG Opinion No. KP-0401 makes clear, it is already against the law to subject Texas children to a wide variety of elective procedures for gender transitioning, including reassignment surgeries that can cause sterilization, mastectomies, removals of otherwise healthy body parts, and administration of puberty-blocking drugs or supraphysiologic doses of testosterone or estrogen. See TEX. FAM. CODE § 261.001(1)(A)–(D) (defining “abuse”). Texas law imposes reporting requirements upon all licensed professionals who have direct contact with children who may be subject to such abuse, including doctors, nurses, and teachers, and provides criminal penalties for failure to report such child abuse. See id. §§ 261.101(b), 261.109(a-1). There are similar reporting requirements and criminal penalties for members of the general public. See id. §§ 261.101(a), 261.109(a).

Texas law also imposes a duty on DFPS to investigate the parents of a child who is subjected to these abusive gender-transitioning procedures, and on other state agencies to investigate licensed facilities where such procedures may occur. See TEX. FAM. CODE § 261.301(a)–(b). To protect Texas children from abuse, DFPS and all other state agencies must follow the law as explained in OAG Opinion No. KP-0401."

Point out how forceful the language is, and how lacking it is in weasel words.

 

[thebobmaster]

Or just do what I've done, and not bother. You can't convince tstorm of anything, and it's not worth the effort of trying to. Far less stressful to just put him on ignore, only to be taken off when I want to marvel at how someone can be so obstinately and provably in error and not be willing to accept it.

 

[Trunkage]

And I suggest for everyone else who tstorm tries to argue against, just quote governor Greg Abbott at him.

"Consistent with our correspondence in August 2021, the Office of the Attorney General (OAG) has now confirmed in the enclosed opinion that a number of so-called “sex change” procedures constitute child abuse under existing Texas law. Because the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) is responsible for protecting children from abuse, I hereby direct your agency to conduct a prompt and thorough investigation of any reported instances of these abusive procedures in the State of Texas.

As OAG Opinion No. KP-0401 makes clear, it is already against the law to subject Texas children to a wide variety of elective procedures for gender transitioning, including reassignment surgeries that can cause sterilization, mastectomies, removals of otherwise healthy body parts, and administration of puberty-blocking drugs or supraphysiologic doses of testosterone or estrogen. See TEX. FAM. CODE § 261.001(1)(A)–(D) (defining “abuse”). Texas law imposes reporting requirements upon all licensed professionals who have direct contact with children who may be subject to such abuse, including doctors, nurses, and teachers, and provides criminal penalties for failure to report such child abuse. See id. §§ 261.101(b), 261.109(a-1). There are similar reporting requirements and criminal penalties for members of the general public. See id. §§ 261.101(a), 261.109(a).

Texas law also imposes a duty on DFPS to investigate the parents of a child who is subjected to these abusive gender-transitioning procedures, and on other state agencies to investigate licensed facilities where such procedures may occur. See TEX. FAM. CODE § 261.301(a)–(b). To protect Texas children from abuse, DFPS and all other state agencies must follow the law as explained in OAG Opinion No. KP-0401."

Point out how forceful the language is, and how lacking it is in weasel words.

Man, I just wanted them to talk to me how BRUISES leads to investigation. Because that would be some utterly ridiculous overreach and overreacting. But all I got was talking points that didnt hold any answers

Maybe it's just because Ive personally had to report an incident to the department and actually know some of the process. There is an incident that is likely to be out of statues that I can describe. A child had seperated parents. The child broke their arm twice in one year under dad's care. The educational institution looked into a variety of things before going to the department, including treatment of siblings. The deparment decided that, at the time of the child leaving the institution, there was not enough evidence than the cursory investigation they did. (Any further serious incident would probably lead to an investigation.)

Someone turning up to the department describing bruises is pointless. And lets even take an extreme case, like there being bruise in the thigh and genital area. I hope that, before bringing anything to the department, someone in the educational institution does some investigating. For example, bikes and slides might cause bruises.

Having bruises in those areas is NOT 100% mandatory reported. But you would keep a record on file if the incident reoccurs. Even if you report, there is not a mandatory investigation. But it will be a red flag if anything else comes up

To me, this new Texas directive weighs the potential child abuse of puberty blockers above any serious bruising. Or breaking arms. And that's not even pointing out that generally you need multiple incidents before an investigation happens. One piece of evidence leading an investigation is incredibly extraordinary

This is, of course, my experience. All you're evidence here just highlights the intent. Abbot has shown a high level of overreacting to minor issues so its possible that it's totally different in Texas. I would hope that Abbot would learn about McMarten and maybe stop trying to score political points and stop destroying lives ovee nothing

 

[Trunkage]

I can very easily imagine a scenario where they would be. Like, the existence of child beauty pageants makes pretty clear people do messed up things with their kids, it is not far removed from that to imagine a "progressive" couple whose child has a tenuous grasp of gender and sex, the parents excitedly identify that as transgender for them, and they get a likeminded doctor to sign off on hormone therapy when they reach the appropriate age.

I can very easily imagine that scenarios like this and others were thought up and even happened decades ago.

That's why we have the laws and protocols we already had. Its also why these new ones do nothing. It's already been covered

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Texas Republicans getting exactly what they want:

Texas hospital pauses hormone therapy for transgender children as threats of child abuse investigations loom

Citing potential criminal penalties, Texas Children’s Hospital will no longer provide hormone therapy to transgender patients.

www.tpr.org

Add in Disney funding Florida's Don't Say Gay bill and Idaho trying to go for life in prison for trans surgery (but forcing surgery on intersex kids and circumcision are both a-okay for *reasons*)

 

[tstorm823]

So, if I'm reading this right, you're arguing against a thing that hasn't actually been done. And the irony is lost on you.

It's not lost on me, I already said this move is pure political theater, and have quite forwardly said they aren't likely to find any child abuse.

Which is it? Pick a lane. The judge tried to move to file an injunction against the governor's directive, but was stopped by Paxton's appeal, you don't get to hide behind it being "one case". There are already multiple investigations open to charge parents and doctors with child abuse, at least one has already made it to court, flying in the face of everything you're saying. But you're going to Don Quixote this all day aren't you?

To my knowledge, the only investigations that have been opened are by DFPS, who have no authority to arrest, search, or charge anyone with a crime. To my knowledge, the only instance of this "making it to court" is the law suit and injunction to stop a DFPS investigation. If you have a source showing the police investigating people or someone being taken to court for child abuse, I would be grateful if you posted that information.

Man, I just wanted them to talk to me how BRUISES leads to investigation. Because that would be some utterly ridiculous overreach and overreacting. But all I got was talking points that didnt hold any answers.

If a child goes to school covered in bruises, and the teacher sees that and thinks "that doesn't look good", they'll talk to the child about it, and if the teacher suspects the parents are beating the child, they'll report it to child protective services. CPS will open an investigation, this is not a criminal investigation, they are not the police. They will interact with the parents, intervene if necessary, and report to the police if a serious crime is being committed. The DFPS investigations in Texas aren't criminal investigations, they are child welfare check-ups, and would only lead to a criminal investigation if serious abuse was discovered on the check-up.

Like your example with the broken arms, they didn't go straight to the police, they looked into it themselves first. But here, we try not to rely on schools to decide for themselves, because schools and other institutions have a history of burying abuse that would make them look bad. Thus, we have mandatory reporting laws: if someone has serious suspicion a child is being abused, they report it directly to CPS, who will do the non-criminal investigation to make sure the child is safe.

Or just do what I've done, and not bother. You can't convince tstorm of anything, and it's not worth the effort of trying to. Far less stressful to just put him on ignore, only to be taken off when I want to marvel at how someone can be so obstinately and provably in error and not be willing to accept it.

You made zero effort, and the comment that hit your breaking point was that teenagers act on whims rather than serious long-term plans.

 

[Buyetyen]

It's not lost on me, I already said this move is pure political theater, and have quite forwardly said they aren't likely to find any child abuse.

Except that you and I both know they aren't really looking for child abuse. They just want to keep trans kids in the closet. The child abuse shit is just the sophistry you use to justify this sort of big government overreach into innocent people's lives.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

To my knowledge, the only investigations that have been opened are by DFPS, who have no authority to arrest, search, or charge anyone with a crime. To my knowledge, the only instance of this "making it to court" is the law suit and injunction to stop a DFPS investigation. If you have a source showing the police investigating people or someone being taken to court for child abuse, I would be grateful if you posted that information.

Abbott's directive makes it a criminal offense both to help trans children and to not report trans children. It's spelled out in black and white above you.

 

[Trunkage]

If a child goes to school covered in bruises, and the teacher sees that and thinks "that doesn't look good", they'll talk to the child about it, and if the teacher suspects the parents are beating the child, they'll report it to child protective services. CPS will open an investigation, this is not a criminal investigation, they are not the police. They will interact with the parents, intervene if necessary, and report to the police if a serious crime is being committed. The DFPS investigations in Texas aren't criminal investigations, they are child welfare check-ups, and would only lead to a criminal investigation if serious abuse was discovered on the check-up.

Like your example with the broken arms, they didn't go straight to the police, they looked into it themselves first. But here, we try not to rely on schools to decide for themselves, because schools and other institutions have a history of burying abuse that would make them look bad. Thus, we have mandatory reporting laws: if someone has serious suspicion a child is being abused, they report it directly to CPS, who will do the non-criminal investigation to make sure the child is safe.

Cool. Now remember that to get any medication for transitions, there is usually two doctors and a psychologist who sign off on transitions, all looking for any case of child abuse, before this law even turned up. I.e. they were following this law already, they were just doing it without the CPS. It's one of the most regulated medical treatments on the planet before this directive turned up

So you have this child on puberty blockers. What are the educational institutions and, in particular, 3 medical professional not doing already that Abbot is unhappy about? Why are you allowed to report on just taking puberty blockers and not having to provide any further evidence?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

But that's the problem, isn't it?

Non-republicans do not have the blind loyalty of the Republicans. Sure, they will vote Blue-ish, but if they really don't like a candidate or if they don't feel the candidate has reached out enough to them, they will not vote. See Hillary.

The Backbone of the Republican Party is a largely unworldly person who would boo Jesus Christ is he came down with a Bernie T-shirt. If it's not their trusted news source, it's lying filth that THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE. This Backbone doesn't need to get things done. In fact, just beating the Democrats is getting it done. We see how the American Farmer suffered under Trump and they still largely wanted to give him another term.

What counter is there for the willfully ignorant? What plan is there that can politicize their fellow citizens' lives? The Party that was so against Death Panels and the idea that the Government would choose who lives or dies... has no problem going maskless with a pandemic that is about to reach one million deaths here in the United States. Covid is the number 3 leading cause of death here.

The people who were so mortified about the very idea of the Government getting together and deciding who would get aid and who would let people die just up and decided to ignore something so fatal because their leaders decided it was fake news. And by the time they all got around to admitting it's truth, they did it with a wink and a jack off gesture. Like "Sure. We HAVE to say it... But come on!"

There is no strategy to win over the majority of those who convinced themselves that they are morally superior. No frontal one, anyway. There is no time to make fake facebook accounts and make up stories. And besides, for that to work, one already has to have a predisposition to want to believe the worst.

That's one problem.

The other problem is that Non-Republicans just want shit done. Well, how can you do that when you have two sleepers and a senate that is bound and determined to make everything fail because they know they aren't the Party of Burden. They are the Party of Anti-Democrat. They succeed when A.) Democrats fail and B.) Things are Blamed on the Democrats.

There is no win scenario via actual democratic action. You just have to actually hope on "Trump And Republican Bad".

This is the exactly what both sides want your attitude to be. They want you to be so against the other side that you'll never get along or that there won't ever be a shift. They BOTH want a continued status quo. Just as you think republicans are some "unworldly" people, republicans think the same as you. With that attitude, the public is never going to work together and that's the point. You're going on about how ignorant everyone on the other side is without realizing CNN makes you as ignorant as FOX news. And no democrats aren't about getting "shit" done, when they're in power they get the same shit done as republicans. We have to vote them both out if we want anything to get done that helps us.

 

[Buyetyen]

without realizing CNN makes you as ignorant as FOX news.

What is it with right wingers assuming that everyone who doesn't agree with them must slavishly watch CNN?