Ukraine

[Hawki]

Indeed, I am confused at Silvanus's surprise considering it was him who had a lengthy discussion about the treatment of the Uighur in China, which according to Sean is totally normal and fine.

My breaking points were along the lines of the following:

1: When he suggested using the US military to depopulate Israel of Jews

2: When he pointed to the fact that only a few thousand people left Afghanistan by air that therefore, the rest of the population welcomed the Taliban.

 

[Silvanus]

Indeed, I am confused at Silvanus's surprise considering it was him who had a lengthy discussion about the treatment of the Uighur in China, which according to Sean is totally normal and fine.

Its not surprise I'm registering exactly.

But a while ago (long before that China discussion) I remember a lot more coherence and internal logic, even if I found the views themselves objectionable.

As much as I enjoy arguing with people here, it can also be really nice to sit back and watch people realize that disagreeing with me was all they ever had in common.

Don't really know why you were under the impression we all thought we had loads in common and agreed with eachother about everything. We both just separately argued with you. That's all. We still would.

...Pretty strange attempt to make it all about yourself, honestly.

 

[Trunkage]

Don't really know why you were under the impression we all thought we had loads in common and agreed with eachother about everything. We both just separately argued with you. That's all. We still would.

...Pretty strange attempt to make it all about yourself, honestly.

Well, he did say disagreeing with him was the commonality not everything else.

It is a refreshing acknowledgement that we aren't just parroting each other unlike most times

 

[tstorm823]

Don't really know why you were under the impression we all thought we had loads in common and agreed with eachother about everything. We both just separately argued with you. That's all. We still would.

...Pretty strange attempt to make it all about yourself, honestly.

I mean, Kwak moved instantly to try and reestablish the teams. That's a pretty good illustration of things, honestly. It's not about me specifically, it's about people who all see themselves as "left" despite wildly differing positions, who very obviously just want to argue with the "right" even if we're not actually that different. And it takes a situation this extreme to break down that tendency.

 

[Silvanus]

I mean, Kwak moved instantly to try and reestablish the teams. That's a pretty good illustration of things, honestly. It's not about me specifically, it's about people who all see themselves as "left" despite wildly differing positions, who very obviously just want to argue with the "right" even if we're not actually that different. And it takes a situation this extreme to break down that tendency.

Why is it odd or unexpected for people who identify as "left" to have wildly different positions...? Why on earth would being broadly left-wing mean that we all agree?

It's not a tribal tendency. I argue with positions I disagree with. That's all. If you're seeing that as forming "teams", all that says to me is that you've lumped all your opponents into one category together. Because I certainly didn't join any clubs.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Why is it odd or unexpected for people who identify as "left" to have wildly different positions...? Why on earth would being broadly left-wing mean that we all agree?

Because the right do? It's kinda their thing.

 

[Agema]

it's about people who all see themselves as "left" despite wildly differing positions, who very obviously just want to argue with the "right" even if we're not actually that different.

Correct, the "left" represents a substantial spectrum of views, just like the right does.

But in the typical circumstances of the average country, the left are generally much more concerned with the other ~50% of the country who are right wing (and often in power, making policy) than the other ~25% of the population with which they tend to have lesser disagreements.

Secondly, this forum is absolutely full of arguments between centreist and varied stripes of left users on a wide range of topics. How have you not noticed?

 

[tstorm823]

Why is it odd or unexpected for people who identify as "left" to have wildly different positions...? Why on earth would being broadly left-wing mean that we all agree?

I don't think you do all agree, that is explicitly my point.

It's not a tribal tendency. I argue with positions I disagree with. That's all. If you're seeing that as forming "teams", all that says to me is that you've lumped all your opponents into one category together. Because I certainly didn't join any clubs.

You are the worst offender at this. How many times have we done the thing where someone else says something either factually incorrect or indefensible, I point out the problem, and then you jump in to argue with me only to inevitably end up saying that you weren't ever defending the initial position? A lot. It's a lot. I'm like 6 inches right of you arguing with communists 1000 miles to your left, and you pick the fight with me nearly every time.

 

[Agema]

I'm like 6 inches right of you arguing with communists 1000 miles to your left, and you pick the fight with me nearly every time.

Yes and no. There are ways in which a communist and a democratic socialist are a long, long way from each other, but on many practical issues facing society in the hear and now (like "socialised healthcare: yes or no"), then I think you'll find the democratic socialist and communist much closer to each other than they are to you.

The differences between communists and democratic socialists simply aren't often worth discussing in current affairs related topics, because no topics particularly relevant crop up in current affairs, so far away are we from communism. If we ever get to the point of seriously discussing as a society whether we should cancel government and move to autonomous collectives, you might find a lot more argument between the nearer and further left.

 

[tstorm823]

...but on many practical issues facing society in the hear and now (like "socialised healthcare: yes or no"), then I think you'll find the democratic socialist and communist much closer to each other than they are to you.

Don't you feel like that's just a rhetorical glitch though? Without droning on about specifics like I usually do, the difference between an insurance-based health financing system and a government run insurance-based health financing system is not actually that stark. The difference between a government run health-financing system and a communist utopia where nothing is financed and healthcare is free is a lot bigger gap. That we would call the latter 2 options both "socialized healthcare" isn't really a strong connection when you consider the nuts and bolts of it.

Edit: to bring this back on topic a little, war in Ukraine isn't suffering from that sort of rhetorical glitch. Two different users may both call themselves "anti-imperial", but if one is for Russia invading and the other is against it, they're gonna notice it's not the same. It's much harder to miss the disagreement when bombing people is involved.

 

[Silvanus]

I don't think you do all agree, that is explicitly my point.

You are the worst offender at this. How many times have we done the thing where someone else says something either factually incorrect or indefensible, I point out the problem, and then you jump in to argue with me only to inevitably end up saying that you weren't ever defending the initial position? A lot. It's a lot. I'm like 6 inches right of you arguing with communists 1000 miles to your left, and you pick the fight with me nearly every time.

You don't just "point out the problem". I can recall several instances which you have characterised this way, and in each case, you used it as a springboard or tried to turn it into a broader point I disagreed with.

Sorry, but no, I'm not 6 inches to your left. I think a hell of a lot of what you believe is really damn objectionable.

 

[tstorm823]

Sorry, but no, I'm not 6 inches to your left. I think a hell of a lot of what you believe is really damn objectionable.

You do not have a track record of identifying what I believe. You superimpose your personal caricature of right-wing conservatism onto me.

 

[Silvanus]

You do not have a track record of identifying what I believe. You superimpose your personal caricature of right-wing conservatism onto me.

Any errors I might have made in interpretation of your position do not bridge the gulf between what you believe and what I consider reasonable.

Also, pots, kettles, etc.

 

[Hawki]

Any errors I might have made in interpretation of your position do not bridge the gulf between what you believe and what I consider reasonable.

Also, pots, kettles, etc.

So in other words, Tstorm's views are being panned?

 

[tstorm823]

So in other words, Tstorm's views are being panned?

Or perhaps he thinks what I'm saying is a crock...

 

[Hawki]

Or perhaps he thinks what I'm saying is a crock...

This an awful lot on my plate to deal with.

 

[tstorm823]

This an awful lot on my plate to deal with.

Well, we're not just gonna spoonfeed it to you.

 

[Hawki]

Well, we're not just gonna spoonfeed it to you.

That joke you made really bowled me over.

 

[Trunkage]

That joke you made really bowled me over.

Well, that's a poor ending to this spate of dad jokes...

Anyway, today, many neo-Marxist advocate to never do revolutions as they are just bloody mess and dont help the cause. But I am talking about academics here and not necessarily matching the general consensus which I would gather is about 50/50 on it.

That is to say, assuming communism would look anything like Communism could be misleadinf. But then, in America communism means something vastly different than actual communism

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Don't know if this is actually true but uhh, big blunder if so.