Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

Silvanus

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I am looking at trends. First, age is the biggest factor and after that is obesity. So when you adjust for age, what you see is that the worst states are the ones with the highest obese rates, which are also mainly red states. And Illinois has a higher vax rate than Florida and to this day, they exactly even when adjusted for age.
So why were you ignoring both trends and other variables when you kept making the direct comparison between Michigan and Florida and insinuating that it showed social restrictions don't work?

And why do you keep making "infections/cases" a bad word
😂

You mean when Michigan opened up after everyone was vaxxed like a year and a half after March 2020 (I'm assuming you're talking about 2021 fall)?
I literally just pointed out that Michigan's vaccination uptake rate is actually low. About 50 - 54%. They opened up with those poor numbers, and saw a predictable spike.

Was the spike attributed to kids going back to school or just covid spiking because it's the fall and cold season in the midwest?
Kids going back to school. They identified specific outbreaks, traced to schools.

DeSantis is nicknamed DeathSantis, for what reason?
Why is this nickname such a bugbear for you? You seem outraged on his behalf. He's never going to reply to your letters, you know.
 

Terminal Blue

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Where's the actual law's wording? If that's true, then I'd agree that's one right trans people should have. Or is just the system not working against EMTs like when cops get off for stuff that is against the law.
The wording isn't particularly important. It's the way the wording gets interpreted and the body of precedent built up around it.

Look at employment law.

In 2014, under the Obama administration, the Atorney General issued a statement to the effect that sex discrimination under title VII of the civil rights act included discrimination on the basis of gender identity or transgender status. In 2017, however, under the Trump administration, the new Attorney General withdrew that statement and issued a directive that sex discrimination should be interpreted only as discrimination between men and women.

Because of this, the equality act was proposed which would have explicitly included gender identity within the wording of the law. However, it failed to pass after Trump, who was then president, said that he would veto it. There was clear ideological opposition within the Trump administration to any extension of equality legislation to trans people, either under the umbrella or sex discrimination or as a distinct protected category.

In 2020, a case went to the supreme court involving a trans woman who was fired after coming out to her employers. The court ruled in her favour, essentially redefining sex discrimination to include discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

The reasoning for this decision was very interesting, because it highlights a common misunderstanding regarding the nature of sex and gender. Essentially, the court argued that discrimination against trans people on the basis of their gender identity indispensably involved a judgement or interpretation of their sex. You cannot cleanly separate sex and gender as legal entities because one inevitably involves the other. Which is undeniably true.

But think of what it would meant if that case had been lost. What it would have meant is that any employer can fire someone simply for being trans, or can deliberately treat their trans employees worse, and those affected would have no legal redress, meaning it would be effectively legal for anyone to do so. That is still the situation we are in in many cases, including the provision of medical care. If you're not deemed to be covered by equality legislation, you have no protection against discrimination.

I don't know the ins and outs of drug testing in sports or if a woman not taking testosterone has failed the screening.
Women fail screening on the basis of their natural hormone levels constantly. 6 female athletes (all cis) were disqualified from events at the 2020 Olympics alone due to hormone tests. In all cases those hormone levels were found to be natural.

Again, we're talking about people who are to some extent selected on the basis of unusual physiological features. If having differences of sexual development or hyperandrogenism is an advantage in a given athletic field, which it certainly can be, then it shouldn't really surprise anyone that women with those things are overrepresented within the top end of that field.

And again, we end up back at the irony. You are looking for the women who can run the fastest, or lift the most weight, or perform any given physical task better than any other woman in the world. But if a woman runs too fast or lifts too much weight, if she exceeds the physical limits you've decided that women have, then what? You're going to decide she isn't a woman any more, or force her to take drugs to make herself slower or weaker?

Is that what fairness looks like?

When a male athlete runs faster or lifts more weight than their peers, we don't start examining them for physiological quirks that might give them an unfair advantage, because it doesn't matter. We were looking for the fastest runner or the strongest lifter, and we found them. It's only female athletes who have their bodies relentlessly examined and analysed in this way.
 
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CriticalGaming

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I mean...There is a reason why men and women don't fight each other in professional combat sports. There is a reason why women don't play in the NFL. Sports have always been separated by sex.

So transwomen are changed gender, not biological sex. Therefore if they still desire to compete they should either compete with the men, or we need to create a third catagory of competition. The second option is hard to do because there aren't enough trans athletes in a given sport to have a competitive field.

What shouldn't happen is a mediocre Men's athlete deciding that they want to go compete with the women for an easier playing field. Some would call this a ridiculous notion, that someone would not go through transitioning hell just to win a couple of medals. But you underestimate the NEED to win that some people have, and there are people willing to go through anything if it means glory and recognition on the other side.

So how do you prevent that? Simple, if the transwoman wants to still compete, then they must do so in their biological sex catagory. It solves every controversy.
 

Schadrach

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Professional sports aren't fair.
We're talking about school sports, not professional. Which is important because there is an explicit requirement in the US that school sports not discriminate with respect to sex, which functionally means a requirement to discriminate in favor of women everywhere else in order to maintain football and men's basketball programs as those are big sources of money and prestige.

If you're interested in making sports fair and accessible, why stop at women, why not accommodate varying physiological features across the entire population?
Because there's no social movement demanding equality in sports for those who aren't very good at sports regardless of demographic membership.

The physiological differences between men and women aren't, as conservatives tend to believe, magic.
No, they're a consequence of genetic, structural and hormonal differences. The result most traits being distributed in mostly overlapping bell curves when grouped by sex. But as you point out, sports aren't fair as who as who gets to play. Noting that most of the curve overlaps doesn't mean anything when you are looking specifically for people towards the ends of the curves, where sex differences are more pronounced. The best male runners can readily be expected to outperform the best female runners (higher pulmonary capacity and a pelvic shape more optimized for running being traits linked to the male sex) - that doesn't mean that all males outperform the best female runners.

But what if we didn't do it like that, what if we set out to create a sporting environment in which anyone who is willing to put in the time and effort can take part and compete fairly against people physiologically similar to themselves.
That's...unworkable for professional sports, because professional sports are a form of mass entertainment. And watching people who are mediocre at something do it isn't especially entertaining, and watching people who are extremely bad at something do it is only entertaining for reasons I wouldn't call "kind" or "healthy." Non-professional leagues/teams exist for specifically this kind of thing, however.

There is a reason why women don't play in the NFL. Sports have always been separated by sex.
Technically, the NFL is unisex (as is the NBA). Women are permitted to play, if they can make a team. You can count the number who have even attempted to try out on your fingers.

This is actually pretty typical for sports or other competitions (even stuff like chess where there's no physical difference that might matter) - the "men's" version is technically unisex because keeping women out is misogyny, while the women's version is kept women-only because dedicated women's spaces are important.
 
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Terminal Blue

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We're talking about school sports, not professional.
At this point, I feel like you're the only person talking about school sports, because most people have realised that this whole argument about athletic performance is incredibly dumb when applied to children.

The reason school sports are big sources of money and prestige is because they are part of the pipeline into professional sports.

Because there's no social movement demanding equality in sports for those who aren't very good at sports regardless of demographic membership.
Why not though?

No, they're a consequence of genetic, structural and hormonal differences.
The entire human population is genetically, structurally and hormonally different from one another.

Why does it only become relevant when those difference correlate (to a fairly small degree) with sex?

That's...unworkable for professional sports, because professional sports are a form of mass entertainment. And watching people who are mediocre at something do it isn't especially entertaining, and watching people who are extremely bad at something do it is only entertaining for reasons I wouldn't call "kind" or "healthy."
Do you think women athletes are "mediocre" because they don't always perform at the same level as the equivalent top male athletes? Do you think women's sport is unworkable, and not viable as a form of mass entertainment? Do you think it's cruel or unhealthy to put female athletes on display if they can't meet the same standard as equivalent male athletes?

Heck, do you think that weight classes in sports like boxing or weightlifting are unworkable, because boxers or lifters in lower weight classes wouldn't be able to beat those in higher weight classes and therefore it's not entertaining and cruel to exhibit them publicly?

I think you're telling on yourself a little with the way you've taken my point here.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Do you think women's sport is unworkable, and not viable as a form of mass entertainment?
I mean this is pretty much proven with televised events around the world. From Women's Soccer, to the WNBA, the athletic performance is nowhere near the level of the men's side of things.

I mean would you want to go see your favorite band in concert or a cover band version of them? Because that's basically the difference.

That isn't to say there isn't potential for SOME audience for women's sports. I think Women's Tennis does fairly well though I couldn't tell you why. But maybe because Tennis is a fast enough sport that it is exciting at all levels.
 

Terminal Blue

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I mean this is pretty much proven with televised events around the world. From Women's Soccer, to the WNBA, the athletic performance is nowhere near the level of the men's side of things.
And?

Again, the men's weightlifting records in the 109kg plus weight class are hugely higher than in the 61kg weight class, and proportionally much greater than the difference between the records of men and women of equivalent body weight. Does this mean watching anyone not in the heaviest weight class is equivalent to watching a cover band versus a real artist?

Is watching someone lifting more than twice their own bodyweight a boring or pointless exercise unless it is also the heaviest weight a living human can lift?
 
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CriticalGaming

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And?

Again, the men's weightlifting records in the 109kg plus weight class are hugely higher than in the 61kg weight class, and proportionally much greater than the difference between men and women of equivalent body weight. Does this mean watching anyone not in the heaviest weight class is equivalent to watching a cover band versus a real artist?
Dunno, what are the ratings? Are those events even normally televised. I know they have a Strongman championship that does well, but I don't know of a female equivalant.
 

Buyetyen

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Dunno, what are the ratings? Are those events even normally televised. I know they have a Strongman championship that does well, but I don't know of a female equivalant.
TV ratings are not a particularly good metric of anything except raw, naked commercialism. I'd like to think there's more to life than that.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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The part where you're bolting it to trans people somehow. Current Olympic regulations require trans women to have testosterone level at or below the normal range for cis sportswomen for years.

Would've *maybe* gotten 16th instead of 17th as she was soundly blown out by 15 other cis girls. *If* she was in the running for an athletic scholarship, the dramatically bad showing of sportsmanship probably sunk it. Who's gonna give a scholarship to somebody willing to sue the school and league over a perceived slight?

Given that zero (0) trans people have gotten athletic scholarships thus far, sure. I'd be fine with them competing with the girls, which they are.
You're straight up going "it's not banning gay men from getting married, they can marry women just like everybody else". That's the level of logic you're on.
I wasn't bolting it to trans people. I just knew that taking testosterone increases performance, which has nothing to do with trans people. I assume it is something they screen for prior to trans athletes and also screen men as well.

The point was she wasn't allowed to compete, which you said won't happen.

That's a bullshit analogy and you know it. If it was fair competition, no one would care (and not literally no one obviously). Show me some bills or laws about trans women not being able to play women's chess or join some women's group or something.

When I say Texas is banning in this context, I mean that Texas is banning people from playing in sports league that match their current gender. Which is exactly what the laws say
And? So? Sport is separated by sex. I pointed out the only problem in the Texas law.



So why were you ignoring both trends and other variables when you kept making the direct comparison between Michigan and Florida and insinuating that it showed social restrictions don't work?

Cases

I literally just pointed out that Michigan's vaccination uptake rate is actually low. About 50 - 54%. They opened up with those poor numbers, and saw a predictable spike.

Kids going back to school. They identified specific outbreaks, traced to schools.

Why is this nickname such a bugbear for you? You seem outraged on his behalf. He's never going to reply to your letters, you know.
I also compared Florida to California and Illinois. What trends am I ignoring? I pointed out why conservative states did poor due to obesity rates, which is a 100% known factual reason for poorer covid outcomes. Is it just an accident that the most obese states just happened to top the list?

Why do you care about infections that don't lead to bad outcomes? Do you not understand how much Omicron spread regardless of restrictions and vaccination rates? Do you care that people catch a normal head cold or the flu?

What northern blue state didn't show a spike in fall 2020 or fall 2021? States with much better vaccine rates show the same spikes.

Where's the data? There will be some outbreaks at schools and some outbreaks at a restaurant or workplace. Florida had schools open all of 2020-2021 school year and no significant differences among states with schools closed.

I couldn't care less what they call DeSantis. The reason I care is because it's just misinformation and propaganda that isn't true. Why would you nickname someone that did a better than average job as Death-whatever? Florida followed science, they just didn't follow "the science", that's the only reason because it ain't based on objective numbers.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The wording isn't particularly important. It's the way the wording gets interpreted and the body of precedent built up around it.

Look at employment law.

In 2014, under the Obama administration, the Atorney General issued a statement to the effect that sex discrimination under title VII of the civil rights act included discrimination on the basis of gender identity or transgender status. In 2017, however, under the Trump administration, the new Attorney General withdrew that statement and issued a directive that sex discrimination should be interpreted only as discrimination between men and women.

Because of this, the equality act was proposed which would have explicitly included gender identity within the wording of the law. However, it failed to pass after Trump, who was then president, said that he would veto it. There was clear ideological opposition within the Trump administration to any extension of equality legislation to trans people, either under the umbrella or sex discrimination or as a distinct protected category.

In 2020, a case went to the supreme court involving a trans woman who was fired after coming out to her employers. The court ruled in her favour, essentially redefining sex discrimination to include discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

The reasoning for this decision was very interesting, because it highlights a common misunderstanding regarding the nature of sex and gender. Essentially, the court argued that discrimination against trans people on the basis of their gender identity indispensably involved a judgement or interpretation of their sex. You cannot cleanly separate sex and gender as legal entities because one inevitably involves the other. Which is undeniably true.

But think of what it would meant if that case had been lost. What it would have meant is that any employer can fire someone simply for being trans, or can deliberately treat their trans employees worse, and those affected would have no legal redress, meaning it would be effectively legal for anyone to do so. That is still the situation we are in in many cases, including the provision of medical care. If you're not deemed to be covered by equality legislation, you have no protection against discrimination.
So she won and that's good. Why are we fighting for trans rights when they have rights?


Women fail screening on the basis of their natural hormone levels constantly. 6 female athletes (all cis) were disqualified from events at the 2020 Olympics alone due to hormone tests. In all cases those hormone levels were found to be natural.

Again, we're talking about people who are to some extent selected on the basis of unusual physiological features. If having differences of sexual development or hyperandrogenism is an advantage in a given athletic field, which it certainly can be, then it shouldn't really surprise anyone that women with those things are overrepresented within the top end of that field.

And again, we end up back at the irony. You are looking for the women who can run the fastest, or lift the most weight, or perform any given physical task better than any other woman in the world. But if a woman runs too fast or lifts too much weight, if she exceeds the physical limits you've decided that women have, then what? You're going to decide she isn't a woman any more, or force her to take drugs to make herself slower or weaker?

Is that what fairness looks like?

When a male athlete runs faster or lifts more weight than their peers, we don't start examining them for physiological quirks that might give them an unfair advantage, because it doesn't matter. We were looking for the fastest runner or the strongest lifter, and we found them. It's only female athletes who have their bodies relentlessly examined and analysed in this way.
That's bad if women or anyone gets disqualified for no reason. Like I said, I don't know the ins and outs of the Olympics (because I really don't care that much about the Olympics), I would think they have people that know their shit deciding on the standards and whatnot. I'm pretty sure people care as much about male athletes cheating as women athletes, even more so males because they are setting the upper limits of human performance. Nobody considers Barry Bonds the homerun champ because he cheated. The baseball steroids stuff went in front of Congress for some reason, which never made sense to me, that's how much people care. I can see it going in front of congress for safety reasons like if all these pro stars are taking steroids, that means kids will probably think about doing steroids as well, which is bad and the government might tell baseball to clean this shit up. But, IIRC, it was just to ask certain players if they took steroids and then try to catch them in a lie.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I wasn't bolting it to trans people. I just knew that taking testosterone increases performance, which has nothing to do with trans people. I assume it is something they screen for prior to trans athletes and also screen men as well.
Then why bring it up *at all*?
The point was she wasn't allowed to compete, which you said won't happen.
She did compete. She got 17th in the preliminaries and did not qualify for the final heat, because that's what happens when the final heat has 16 spots and you get 17th
That's a bullshit analogy and you know it. If it was fair competition, no one would care (and not literally no one obviously). Show me some bills or laws about trans women not being able to play women's chess or join some women's group or something.
It's more or less fair now. You've got a reporting bias where the only trans girls and women you hear about are the ones that do well, completely ignoring the times they don't
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I mean...There is a reason why men and women don't fight each other in professional combat sports. There is a reason why women don't play in the NFL. Sports have always been separated by sex.
Provst, a school teacher from suburban Paris, said she had no qualms about getting into the ring with an opponent who was born a man
Don't worry though, keep getting offended on her behalf.

The Fallon Fox thing is hilarious these days because there's a cis fighter who happened to inflict the same *horrific injuries* (lmao) to like, 5 opponents in a row and nobody gives a shit.
What shouldn't happen is a mediocre Men's athlete deciding that they want to go compete with the women for an easier playing field. Some would call this a ridiculous notion, that someone would not go through transitioning hell just to win a couple of medals. But you underestimate the NEED to win that some people have, and there are people willing to go through anything if it means glory and recognition on the other side.
...that will be taken away as soon as that scheme is revealed for what it is, and in most cases has little reward and no recognition. Like, they gotta *stay transitioned*. All to win, what, women's sports? A category so dismissed that it's being dismissed in a thread where people are pretending to defend it?

No man, that argument is a ridiculous thing to apply as often as people seem to believe
 
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Terminal Blue

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So she won and that's good. Why are we fighting for trans rights when they have rights?
That was an example.

She won the right to not be fired from her job for being transgender. She won that right in the year 2020, more than a half century after the passing of the civil rights act. She herself actually died before the verdict was finished, meaning she lived her entire life in a world where it was legal to fire someone or deny them employment for being transgender.

That is one right. Singular. One, singular right. If employment discrimination was the only area in which trans people lacked legal protection from discrimination, it would be bad enough that such protection came so little and so late. It would be bad enough that such protection remains, to this day, threatened both by simple institutional failure and by the bizarre legislative crusade the Republican campaign seems determined to wage against trans people.

But it is not the only area in which trans people lack legal protection.

I'm pretty sure people care as much about male athletes cheating as women athletes, even more so males because they are setting the upper limits of human performance.
We are not talking about people who cheated. None of those six women who were barred from competing in Olympic events cheated.

@TheMysteriousGX brought up Michael Phelps earlier, and it's worth considering him for a moment. Michael Phelps is an Olympic swimmer. He has set more world records than any recognized swimmer in history and won 23 Olympic gold medals during his career, more than twice as many as any other Olympic athlete in history.

Phelps physiology is highly atypical in ways that give him an incredible advantage over swimmers without the same features. His arms are unusually long, his hands and feet are unusually big, and his muscles produce unusually low levels of lactic acid. From a general health standpoint, none of this is actually a very good sign. From the standpoint of being a good swimmer, however, Michael Phelps just happened to pick the winning numbers in the genetic lottery. He also has ADHD. In fact, a lot of athletes have ADHD, because the symptoms of ADHD (while unpleasant in a lot of ways) can be a huge advantage in athletic training.

My point is, noone in history can claim to have done more to set the upper limits of human performance than Michael Phelps, but he was able to do that because his body is very, very different from a typical male human body. Was it fair for Michael Phelps to be competing against athletes who didn't have these innate advantages, who had a typical male human body? How is it any different or fairer than a female athlete competing against a woman whose body produces more androgens than most women? Why do we celebrate Phelps' genetic and physiological differences and yet ban women with similar genetic and physiological differences from competing because fairness?
 
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CriticalGaming

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No man, that argument is a ridiculous thing to apply as often as people seem tolelieve
As ridiculous as the teenage boy who identified as a women to use the grils locker room and rape his peers?

The notion isn't that ridiculous. Though it is rare, but so are trans people in general.

I mean isn't there some common ground we can apply ruling too? I mean if schools need a gender neutral locker room specifically for the non-binaries then fine. Let's also make a third sports catagory why not? Then at least people can compete against people of the same realtive physical status. I think it's quite clear that just being on hormones for a year isn't enough to diminish the physical advantage of being born male.

Because I personally don't think it's right that Lia Thomas can come in and steal a spot from a cis woman who couldn't stand a chance against against them do you? Lia's like 10 feet tall and has arms the size of fucking telephone poles. No girl is going to be able to top that. It's not right.
 

CriticalGaming

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"We have to restrict the rights of those people because someone else might abuse those rights." Fuck that noise.
I'm using the extreme as an example, nothing more. The point to this whole thing is there needs to be some sort of sport regulation. Maybe have the transwomen post a qualifying time, and then apply a handicap based on qualifying times in order to level them down to their cis women peers in the sport?

The problem is, any suggestion is blasted as biasly unfair by the trans community, but their whole goal is strictly unfair. You are giving one athlete an advantage over others and are unwilling to adjust anyway of thinking because you can't see reason and facts.

I am not saying trans people shouldn't compete, we just need to find whatever adjustments needs to keep them from having advantages based on birth sex. Or disadvantages in the case of female to male, though i haven't seen any stories of transmale athletes breaking their opponent's skulls....maybe I have just missed those.