Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

[TheMysteriousGX]

As ridiculous as the teenage boy who identified as a women to use the grils locker room and rape his peers?

The notion isn't that ridiculous.

Lmao, wow. It's so ridiculous you're conjuring a violent assault to compare it to.

"Lesbian raped somebody, need gays only locker rooms" is an unironic argument from my youth. "Black person raped somebody, need segregated locker rooms" is an unironic argument from my parent's time

I mean isn't there some common ground we can apply ruling too? I mean if schools need a gender neutral locker room specifically for the non-binaries then fine. Let's also make a third sports catagory why not? Then at least people can compete against people of the same realtive physical status. I think it's quite clear that just being on hormones for a year isn't enough to diminish the physical advantage of being born male.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter at a high school level

Because I personally don't think it's right that Lia Thomas can come in and steal a spot from a cis woman who couldn't stand a chance against against them do you? Lia's like 10 feet tall and has arms the size of fucking telephone poles. No girl is going to be able to top that. It's not right.

Lia Thomas is not undefeated. Zero girls lost their shot. The main one whining about it lost to 15 other cis girls and was scrambling to find somebody to blame that wasn't herself

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I am not saying trans people shouldn't compete, we just need to find whatever adjustments needs to keep them from having advantages based on birth sex. Or disadvantages in the case of female to male, though i haven't seen any stories of transmale athletes breaking their opponent's skulls....maybe I have just missed those.

"Trans women can compete as long as they're never allowed to win"

And you apparently missed the bit were said injury you keep pretending is a big deal is fairly common, with a rash of them happening in women's MMA amongst the cis fighters and y'all aren't batting an eye

 

[Trunkage]

As ridiculous as the teenage boy who identified as a women to use the grils locker room and rape his peers?

We already have rape laws

 

[Trunkage]

And? So? Sport is separated by sex. I pointed out the only problem in the Texas law.

Dude, you were the one saying it was separated by gender when it was explicitly stated it wasn't

You also stating that transpeople weren't banned, which is explicitly stated in the law

 

[Cheetodust]

My point is, noone in history can claim to have done more to set the upper limits of human performance than Michael Phelps, but he was able to do that because his body is very, very different from a typical male human body. Was it fair for Michael Phelps to be competing against athletes who didn't have these innate advantages, who had a typical male human body? How is it any different or fairer than a female athlete competing against a woman whose body produces more androgens than most women? Why do we celebrate Phelps' genetic and physiological differences and yet ban women with similar genetic and physiological differences from competing because fairness?

Eddie Hall has what is commonly referred to as the "hercules gene". Essentially producing less myostatin to inhibit muscle growth. It basically let's him build muscle beyond what would be a normal genetic threshold for a person his size. Google him at 16. The man is an out and out freak. Very few people will ever be on his level. Even Bjornsson only just managed to break his deadlift world record and has half a foot on him and ridiculous wingspan (that man's arms were designed for deadlifting, he's built like a gorilla). Hell most strongmen are much bigger than Hall but he was still able to beat them.

 

[tstorm823]

Why do we celebrate Phelps' genetic and physiological differences and yet ban women with similar genetic and physiological differences from competing because fairness?

Because that's the entire purpose of women's sports, to let women use their talents in a setting where they don't get overshadowed by male brute force.

 

[Silvanus]

I am looking at trends. First, age is the biggest factor and after that is obesity. So when you adjust for age, what you see is that the worst states are the ones with the highest obese rates, which are also mainly red states. And Illinois has a higher vax rate than Florida and to this day, they exactly even when adjusted for age.

Right, but you're only looking at the overall trend when it suits. You're not strongly invested in showing that obesity doesn't lead to covid, so you'll happily talk about the overall trend: that states with greater rates of obesity generally have performed worse in terms of covid.

But you are pretty invested in showing that social restrictions/ lockdowns don't stop covid. So even though the general trend is just as strong there, you'll instead zero-in on individual data points like Michigan v. Florida which don't fit that trend.

But the trend still exists. It's still just as pronounced as the obesity one.

And why do you keep making "infections/cases" a bad word, what matters is bad outcomes (hospitalizations and deaths).

Infections, even if they don't lead to a bad outcome for the infected individual, still spread the virus to others. Which means they increase the likelihood that someone else may end up hospitalised or dead. The higher the rate of infection, also, the higher the likelihood of mutations and new variants, and thus a longer and ultimately more damaging pandemic.

You mean when Michigan opened up after everyone was vaxxed like a year and a half after March 2020 (I'm assuming you're talking about 2021 fall)?

No, as I already said, Michigan had a poor vaccine uptake rate (50 - 54% IIRC) when they opened up.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Infections, even if they don't lead to a bad outcome for the infected individual, still spread the virus to others. Which means they increase the likelihood that someone else may end up hospitalised or dead. The higher the rate of infection, also, the higher the likelihood of mutations and new variants, and thus a longer and ultimately more damaging pandemic.

Also, a bunch of mild cases at the same time in the same industry causing people to take time off work can cause all sorts of problems if the industry is important.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Because that's the entire purpose of women's sports, to let women use their talents in a setting where they don't get overshadowed by male brute force.

Except that we're talking, specifically, about women not being allowed to use their talents in women's sport for fear of them overshadowing other women.

This is a perfect example of why the argument you're making fails. If cis women are being excluded from women's competition in order to ensure fairness because their bodies are deemed to give them an unfair advantage, how does that in any way evidence the idea that sex segregation is a necessary or rational basis for ensuring athletic fairness? It is literally failing in this case.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Then why bring it up *at all*?

She did compete. She got 17th in the preliminaries and did not qualify for the final heat, because that's what happens when the final heat has 16 spots and you get 17th

It's more or less fair now. You've got a reporting bias where the only trans girls and women you hear about are the ones that do well, completely ignoring the times they don't

I didn't bring it up, I was commenting on an article you posted about a trans boy winning a girls wrestling competition. Any athlete taking testosterone against other athletes that are not simply isn't fair. Whether it's a trans man taking testosterone for transitioning or a woman taking testosterone for the competitive advantaged against other women or a man taking added testosterone against other men.

Ok then, whoever the woman was that didn't compete in the prelims because her spot was taken by Lia. You do know that if there's more people that want to play on a team than the amount of players a team can have, you have cuts and some people get cut.

It's basic biology that someone born a man just can't 100% reverse his biological advantages. If that were the case, then it would be fair and no one would care, which is why I keep mentioning other things that aren't athletic and nobody caring.

Because conservatives are trying to take those away, fucking keep up will ya?

Outside of the one thing Terminal Blue brought up that I commented on, how are conservatives trying to take those away?

That was an example.

She won the right to not be fired from her job for being transgender. She won that right in the year 2020, more than a half century after the passing of the civil rights act. She herself actually died before the verdict was finished, meaning she lived her entire life in a world where it was legal to fire someone or deny them employment for being transgender.

That is one right. Singular. One, singular right. If employment discrimination was the only area in which trans people lacked legal protection from discrimination, it would be bad enough that such protection came so little and so late. It would be bad enough that such protection remains, to this day, threatened both by simple institutional failure and by the bizarre legislative crusade the Republican campaign seems determined to wage against trans people.

But it is not the only area in which trans people lack legal protection.

Where else do they lack legal protection?

We are not talking about people who cheated. None of those six women who were barred from competing in Olympic events cheated.

@TheMysteriousGX brought up Michael Phelps earlier, and it's worth considering him for a moment. Michael Phelps is an Olympic swimmer. He has set more world records than any recognized swimmer in history and won 23 Olympic gold medals during his career, more than twice as many as any other Olympic athlete in history.

Phelps physiology is highly atypical in ways that give him an incredible advantage over swimmers without the same features. His arms are unusually long, his hands and feet are unusually big, and his muscles produce unusually low levels of lactic acid. From a general health standpoint, none of this is actually a very good sign. From the standpoint of being a good swimmer, however, Michael Phelps just happened to pick the winning numbers in the genetic lottery. He also has ADHD. In fact, a lot of athletes have ADHD, because the symptoms of ADHD (while unpleasant in a lot of ways) can be a huge advantage in athletic training.

My point is, noone in history can claim to have done more to set the upper limits of human performance than Michael Phelps, but he was able to do that because his body is very, very different from a typical male human body. Was it fair for Michael Phelps to be competing against athletes who didn't have these innate advantages, who had a typical male human body? How is it any different or fairer than a female athlete competing against a woman whose body produces more androgens than most women? Why do we celebrate Phelps' genetic and physiological differences and yet ban women with similar genetic and physiological differences from competing because fairness?

Yes, you can't make sports completely fair obviously. No one is saying that. Also, some of Phelps records have already been beaten by other people. If you wanna make the analogy that Phelps swimming against men would be akin to a trans woman swimming against other women in advantage, then that's way off. Just looking at the 200m freestyle times on wikipedia Phelps beat the best time in 2007 by 2 tenths of a second. Also, Phelps doesn't hold the current record for that anymore. Whereas, the difference between the men's top time vs the women's top time in that event is 11 seconds. If Phelps transitioned to a woman, he'd be obliterating the competition by far more than 2 tenths of a second.

Dude, you were the one saying it was separated by gender when it was explicitly stated it wasn't

You also stating that transpeople weren't banned, which is explicitly stated in the law

Huh? I think I always said sports are separated by sex. I said the Texas law is separated by sex. How the fuck are trans people banned from playing sports in Texas? They are forced to compete against others of their biological sex, that's not banning them from competing.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Right, but you're only looking at the overall trend when it suits. You're not strongly invested in showing that obesity doesn't lead to covid, so you'll happily talk about the overall trend: that states with greater rates of obesity generally have performed worse in terms of covid.

But you are pretty invested in showing that social restrictions/ lockdowns don't stop covid. So even though the general trend is just as strong there, you'll instead zero-in on individual data points like Michigan v. Florida which don't fit that trend.

But the trend still exists. It's still just as pronounced as the obesity one.



Infections, even if they don't lead to a bad outcome for the infected individual, still spread the virus to others. Which means they increase the likelihood that someone else may end up hospitalised or dead. The higher the rate of infection, also, the higher the likelihood of mutations and new variants, and thus a longer and ultimately more damaging pandemic.



No, as I already said, Michigan had a poor vaccine uptake rate (50 - 54% IIRC) when they opened up.

The hardest restricted covid states are like all over the chart of state's performance. The obesity rates line up far better than covid restrictions. Covid social restrictions work (the more people stay away from people the less infections of like any disease there will be, that's common sense). The problem is you can only do that for a short time, you need people together to work and to produce goods and get them to people that need it, people need to be with other people for health purposes as well (humans are social animals). The reason you don't see much differences between hardcore restrictive covid states and nonrestrictive ones is because nobody actually followed restrictions that have significant effects because you just can't do that. Sure, you might be able to pull some small benefit out of other restrictions if you really really crunch the numbers, but it's not going to be significant. That's why Florida is sitting there as a complete middle finger to "the science" in the data because "the science" was stuff that was far more "safety theater" vs stuff actually making it safer similar to what the TSA does for airport security (as shown in Adam Ruins Everything). Masks have never been shown to work against respiratory viruses ever (pre or post covid). Restrictive states like Illinois and California closed beaches only forcing people inside and caused infections to go up. Vax mandates mathematically can't slow the infections yet they were initiated. Right now, in California to go to the SCIENCE museum, you need to be boosted, that's not backed by science. We're wasting capital getting younger people boosted when it's getting older people boosted that would help because old people are usually retired and you can't really mandate them to do anything since they don't work or go to school obviously. We have the most restrictions on the least vulnerable, it doesn't make any sense and provides basically no benefit. Florida did the exact opposite (focused on the vulnerable) and it shows in the data.

You do realize you can't get to zero covid, right? Some head cold or flu is going to reach a vulnerable person as well because there's infections in the community. Vaccines got covid down to basically being the flu, that is good, not bad.

You said Michigan cases went up because of lessened restrictions and kids going back to school. Vaccines don't lower infections much at all. I replied with covid spiked the same time in fall 2020 with restrictions and kids out of school. How are you going to assume that easing of restrictions and kids in school was the cause of the spike in 2021 when that happened the same time in 2020?

 

[Kwak]

It's basic biology that someone born a man just can't 100% reverse his biological advantages.

Citation needed. They teach that in your basic biology course?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Ok then, whoever the woman was that didn't compete in the prelims because her spot was taken by Lia. You do know that if there's more people that want to play on a team than the amount of players a team can have, you have cuts and some people get cut.

I do not actually know if that cut woman exists, because I do not know how big the University of Pennsylvania's swim team is and I do not know if they had to cut the roster. If said woman *does* exist, then same deal: she lost out to far more women than just Lia Thomas.

It's basic biology that someone born a man just can't 100% reverse his biological advantages. If that were the case, then it would be fair and no one would care, which is why I keep mentioning other things that aren't athletic and nobody caring.

Yes, you can't make sports completely fair obviously. No one is saying that. Also, some of Phelps records have already been beaten by other people. If you wanna make the analogy that Phelps swimming against men would be akin to a trans woman swimming against other women in advantage, then that's way off. Just looking at the 200m freestyle times on wikipedia Phelps beat the best time in 2007 by 2 tenths of a second. Also, Phelps doesn't hold the current record for that anymore. Whereas, the difference between the men's top time vs the women's top time in that event is 11 seconds. If Phelps transitioned to a woman, he'd be obliterating the competition by far more than 2 tenths of a second.

Lia Thomas lost 30 seconds of speed from one year of transitioning. She came in 5th in the race prior to one one she won and 8th in the one after. Pre transition she was ~10 seconds off the male record, post transition she's ~10 seconds off the female record held by cis woman Katie Ledecky.

There's no reason to suspect the same wouldn't happen to Lady Phelps. Seems fair.

Huh? I think I always said sports are separated by sex. I said the Texas law is separated by sex. How the fuck are trans people banned from playing sports in Texas? They are forced to compete against others of their biological sex, that's not banning them from competing.

"What do you mean it's a gay marriage ban, they can still marry people?"[/QUOTE]

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Citation needed. They teach that in your basic biology course?

Lia Thomas lost 30 seconds of speed from one year of transitioning. She came in 5th in the race prior to one one she won and 8th in the one after. Pre transition she was ~10 seconds off the male record, post transition she's ~10 seconds off the female record held by cis woman Katie Ledecky.

There's no reason to suspect the same wouldn't happen to Lady Phelps. Seems fair.

Where's the citation that trans women have the same physical abilities as women?

I do not actually know if that cut woman exists, because I do not know how big the University of Pennsylvania's swim team is and I do not know if they had to cut the roster. If said woman *does* exist, then same deal: she lost out to far more women than just Lia Thomas.

"What do you mean it's a gay marriage ban, they can still marry people?"

You do realize how sports work though, right? There's X amount of people that can play in an event or on a team. Someone taking a slot that shouldn't is booting someone from competing.

Again, strawman.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Where's the citation that trans women have the same physical abilities as women?

You can go look at Lia Thomas's times and finishes yourself if you don't believe me.

You do realize how sports work though, right? There's X amount of people that can play in an event or on a team. Someone taking a slot that shouldn't is booting someone from competing.

Again, strawman.

I *know* you're using a strawman. I just can't figure out why you're bringing attention to it. Any woman who didn't make the team was also booted from the team by a *slew* of cis women they also didn't beat. You said "fair enough" when it was prelims to finals, it's literally the same issue here

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You can go look at Lia Thomas's times and finishes yourself if you don't believe me.

I *know* you're using a strawman. I just can't figure out why you're bringing attention to it. Any woman who didn't make the team was also booted from the team by a *slew* of cis women they also didn't beat. You said "fair enough" when it was prelims to finals, it's literally the same issue here

And Lia Thomas swimming worse as a woman somehow proves that trans women 100% revert to the performance abilites of biological women? Everyone knows a man transitioning to a woman will perform worse. She was rank 554 as a man. What happens when the top ranked man transitions to a woman and races against biological women?

Sports and gay marriage are two different things. Was I ever trying to say gay marriage shouldn't be legal or that it should be made illegal again? I couldn't believe it took so long because it's clearly against the 14th amendment. If people who don't like gay marriage really didn't want gay marriage, they could've just removed all benefits married people get and made it equal by doing that, and just made marriage exclusively religious.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

And Lia Thomas swimming worse as a woman somehow proves that trans women 100% revert to the performance abilites of biological women? Everyone knows a man transitioning to a woman will perform worse. She was rank 554 as a man. What happens when the top ranked man transitions to a woman and races against biological women?

She was rank ~554 as a man ONE YEAR INTO TRANSITIONING VIA HRT. She lost an incredible amount of speed, losing 500 ranks on a single year of HRT. So yeah, I think Lady Phelps would probably do the same

 

[Phoenixmgs]

She was rank ~554 as a man ONE YEAR INTO TRANSITIONING VIA HRT. She lost an incredible amount of speed, losing 500 ranks on a single year of HRT. So yeah, I think Lady Phelps would probably do the same

She was 98 in one event, 6 in one event, 49 in one event, well over 10 seconds behind the top swimmer in each event btw. This proves Lia Thomas is performing at a biological woman how? To think we know how to completely revert male biological difference over our very short history of transitioning people is great great hubris on our parts. You can't even find a consensus of whether eggs are good for your body yet we also know the body so well that we can transition a man to a woman perfectly? Sure thing.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

She was 98 in one event, 6 in one event, 49 in one event, well over 10 seconds behind the top swimmer in each event btw. This proves Lia Thomas is performing at a biological woman how? To think we know how to completely revert male biological difference over our very short history of transitioning people is great great hubris on our parts. You can't even find a consensus of whether eggs are good for your body yet we also know the body so well that we can transition a man to a woman perfectly? Sure thing.

She dropped 500 ranks after just starting HRT and has been on it two years past that. She's still 10 seconds behind the best swimmers in her events. She's got roughly the same stats now against women as she did against men pretransition, how is that not fair? Does she have to lose every event for it to be fair?

There are zero standards you would ever consider fair short of the literal Word of God.

 

[Terminal Blue]

If Phelps transitioned to a woman, he'd be obliterating the competition by far more than 2 tenths of a second.

No, he wouldn't.

Olympic guidelines state that Phelps would have needed to be on hormone therapy for two years prior to competing in women's races.

Again, there is nothing special or magical about the differences between male and female athletic performance. Androgens are steroids. The anabolic steroids which athletes might be tempted to take as performance enhancers are essentially synthetic androgens. That's why one of the side effects of heavy steroid use is changes to your sexual characteristics (excess androgens in the body can be converted into estrogen). Men build muscle mass and shed body fat more easily because male bodies naturally produce steroidal hormones. Men aren't stronger than women because their bodies are energized by the vital heat of the pure male soul, it's just biochemistry.

Hormone therapy for trans women means taking antiandrogens, chemicals which inhibit the production and uptake of androgenic hormones, and taking estrogen to replicate the hormone balance in a cis woman's body. The end result is that trans women on hormone therapy have the hormone profiles of cis women, and not even atypical cis women (who again, are the ones being disqualified from women's events). They are not getting the natural steroids which male bodies produce, and thus their body composition, shape and (to an extent) size will change to resemble a cis woman.

Even with HRT, Phelps would be an extremely tall woman with a very atypical body, but again, Phelps already has an atypical body even as a man. Athletes in general tend to have atypical bodies. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Phelps as a trans woman would have had comparatively greater performance versus women athletes as he did as a man versus male athletes, or indeed that any difference that did exist would not fall within the same acceptable standard of unfairness that accompanies all athletic competition.

No trans women are asking to compete at the highest level of women's competition with their natural hormone profiles. Ironically, it is cis women who are currently fighting for the right to enter women's competitions with their natural hormone profiles. It's just another brick in the wall of absurdity surrounding this whole situation.

And all of this is just dancing around the sheer, mind blowing, incredible absurdity of applying this same bizarre fixation to the bodies of children..