Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Agema]

Musk already pays taxes, according to estimates he pays more taxes than 50% of America COMBINED.

That's one of those things where if it sounds too amazing to be true then you need to apply a reality check. How likely is it Elon Musk pays more tax in absolute dollar value than over 100 million other Americans combined?

He definitely doesn't.

The first way this bullshit usually works is to say Elon Musk pays more than 50% of Americans in federal income tax. But Americans pay a lot more taxes than federal income tax. Once total taxes are considered, the claim that Musk pays more total tax than 50% of Americans is rendered completely laughable.

The second way it probably works is through an accounting fiddle. This is based in the fact that poor people get forms of income support from the government. This gets subtracted from their federal income tax demands as an accounting convenience. But the reality is that whatever this accounting convenience, they are paying tax. If we imagine 100 million people paying just 5% a year federal income tax on average $30,000 income, that's $150 billion in federal income tax they are paying annually. Surely no-one thinks Musk is paying anything close to that much.

 

[Thaluikhain]

One might also note that people like Musk get a lot more say about who pays what taxes then the poorest 50% of Americans, which might possibly influence things a bit.

 

[Silvanus]

it isn't cheating the system. It's using the system. It's also not dishonest, because it's all reported on paper. It's simply not taxable income because it's not income, and it's money that only exists in theory and isn't actually capital.

If you use a system that's been intentionally constructed to allow some people to game it, then that's not morally very few away from cheating the system.

And it usually does involve some level of dishonesty, too: companies dishonestly downplay revenue for tax purposes and then dishonestly inflate it for investors, and then dishonestly state where their income should be declared.

I can't wait for the global minimum tax rate to come into force (next year IIRC).

 

[Agema]

it isn't cheating the system. It's using the system.

Is it merely "using" the system if Musk and his fellow elites have bribed politicians to rig the system for their use?

Imagine a football game where one of the teams got to make up all the rules as they went along. I don't think it would be a fair game.

 

[Buyetyen]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Por que no los dos?

 

[CriticalGaming]

And it usually does involve some level of dishonesty, too: companies dishonestly downplay revenue for tax purposes and then dishonestly inflate it for investors, and then dishonestly state where their income should be declared.

The company part is definitely a problem. And actually when you think about it. By making coorporations actually pay their share of taxes, it will in conjunction alsoo cause the billionaires to pay taxes because that money would eat into their investment pool.

Is it merely "using" the system if Musk and his fellow elites have bribed politicians to rig the system for their use?

I'd argue it's the politicians that are the problem not the billionaires. Why do we let corrupt people be in charge?

Although consider, that if the government didn't allow for some play in the system like this, then companies would base themselves in the cheapest possible locations to avoid paying as much as possible anyway and as a result it would crush local economies. America already has a problem in which manufactoring has been so regulated, taxed, and wages of workers gotten to such a level that it forced manufactoring to get done overseas.

Economics is a lot more complicated that people realize and the first people to suffer will always be the poor when trying to enforce policy change or punishment for the elite. It sucks I can't argue that, but there also isn't anything anyone will ever do to change that without creating an entirely new economic system and then also somehow get the entire population to support it. In every economic system on Earth, there is a small portion of people who have all the wealth, the only thing that varies is how that wealth is earned or distributed to the lower classes. With Capitalizism, there is at least a opportunity for the lower class to improve their position. In socialism and communism, there is not. Capitialism isn't perfect, no system is, but to this day mankind has not figured out a better way to go about it.

But if any of ya'll can solve the problem. Then go get that rolling.

 

[Buyetyen]

I'd argue it's the politicians that are the problem not the billionaires. Why do we let corrupt people be in charge?

Because political campaigns are privately funded, not publicly. Votes in Congress are bought and sold regularly by billionaires because they're the biggest campaign contributors. It's legalized quid pro quo corruption.

With Capitalizism, there is at least a opportunity for the lower class to improve their position.

There really isn't. Class mobility in the US right now is a joke and it's largely because capitalists have every incentive to prevent other people from sharing their table.

 

[CriticalGaming]

There really isn't. Class mobility in the US right now is a joke and it's largely because capitalists have every incentive to prevent other people from sharing their table.

It's always someone else's fault.

 

[Silvanus]

The company part is definitely a problem. And actually when you think about it. By making coorporations actually pay their share of taxes, it will in conjunction alsoo cause the billionaires to pay taxes because that money would eat into their investment pool.

Absolutely; it's incredible-- and certainly dishonest and manipulative-- that a billionaire can merely transfer their wealth into another form (stock, bond, etc) and avoid tax, even though that wealth still confers every benefit to the person. They lose nothing, and gain everything.

This is why taxation needs to take into account every form of wealth. Income, capital gains, rent, property value.

Recently in the UK, the Conservative Party implemented an increase in national insurance, arguing that taxes needed to rise to pay for health & social care costs. OK... but by targeting it at national insurance, they ensured that the tax increase only affects wage. So capital gains are unaffected. People who make money from rent are unaffected. Corporate income is unaffected. Literally just working peoples' pay.

And I wonder why? The Tory party's main donors are... corporations and landlords. That's not illegal, but it sure as hell is gaming the system. And since those millionaires (as well as ex-politician tories like George Osborne) control the media and choose not to report on it, it's effectively dishonest as well.

I'd argue it's the politicians that are the problem not the billionaires. Why do we let corrupt people be in charge?

Politicians are directly responsible for the policies that make it a reality. But billionaires (and millionaires) are the ones who exercise enormous control over which politicians will be in power, and what policies they pursue (through lobbying, media dominance, and campaign finance).

 

[CriticalGaming]

Politicians are directly responsible for the policies that make it a reality. But billionaires (and millionaires) are the ones who exercise enormous control over which politicians will be in power, and what policies they pursue (through lobbying, media dominance, and campaign finance).

They are the face of it, while the billionaires are the source.

But at the same time the politicians are almost trapped. Because the rich can go be rich anywhere. So in order to keep wealth in the country the politicians have to please them in at least some ways. However with enough pressure, that can break, such as with the shutdown of american oil producers, the results of which have led to a crazy hike in prices of gas that people need every fucking day. It's an example of how drastic the effect on people can be when you effectively shut down a business outright.

Yay America doesn't farm its own fossil fuel now.....but we still need it everyday and where are we getting it? Oh Russia. Well this was a good fucking plan!

 

[Thaluikhain]

They are the face of it, while the billionaires are the source.

But at the same time the politicians are almost trapped. Because the rich can go be rich anywhere. So in order to keep wealth in the country the politicians have to please them in at least some ways.

Very much depends on their source of their wealth, some can't be moved at all, and some can't be quickly and cheaply moved.

 

[Buyetyen]

It's always someone else's fault.

Are you suggesting that politicians aren't bought and paid for? Are you disputing that our elections are privately funded? Are you really trying to suggest that campaign contributions are not legalized bribery?

They are the face of it, while the billionaires are the source.

So you're arguing that the symptom is a bigger problem than the disease.

But at the same time the politicians are almost trapped. Because the rich can go be rich anywhere. So in order to keep wealth in the country the politicians have to please them in at least some ways. However with enough pressure, that can break, such as with the shutdown of american oil producers, the results of which have led to a crazy hike in prices of gas that people need every fucking day. It's an example of how drastic the effect on people can be when you effectively shut down a business outright.

Who shut down the oil industry and when? Because right now they're making record fucking profits and jacking up prices because they know they can get away with it.

Yay America doesn't farm its own fossil fuel now.....but we still need it everyday and where are we getting it? Oh Russia. Well this was a good fucking plan!

Sounds like a great argument for green energy. Also, we get a decent chunk of our oil from the Middle East, though that has its own complications.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Who shut down the oil industry

Not the industry, the farming of it. America has a good supply of oil available to us on our own lands but the government refuses to approve drilling permits and even shut down a pipeline that would have made us independant, and not needing of foreign based oils.

Sounds like a great argument for green energy.

Green energy isn't as green as people think. For example those big wid turbines. What kind of lube do you think they use to keep those things spinning? Olive Oil?

Also the wind wears down the metal blades fairly quickly, so how are those made and disposed of? What do we do about areas in which the turbines will freeze like what happened in Texas last year?

What do we do with Lithium Ion batteries in our Tesla's (that the climate change people hate for some reason) when the battery goes bad. Or any number of other proposed batteries from solar energy and other sources? Pretty sure that shit becomes uber toxic. Also how green is the process of actually making the batteries?

 

[Buyetyen]

Not the industry, the farming of it. America has a good supply of oil available to us on our own lands but the government refuses to approve drilling permits and even shut down a pipeline that would have made us independant, and not needing of foreign based oils.

A lot of that oil is either underwater, which requires massive amounts of infrastructure that the industry constantly cut corners on, consists of even more polluting tar sands, or is located under our national parks. I know conservatives are less than crazy about the national parks, but there's a lot of good reasons not to dig them up.

Green energy isn't as green as people think. For example those big wid turbines. What kind of lube do you think they use to keep those things spinning? Olive Oil?

We can't get rid of petro-chemical production entirely. Yet. But perfect should not be the enemy of good, and yet with you it always is.

Also the wind wears down the metal blades fairly quickly, so how are those made and disposed of?

New turbine designs have fewer moving parts and no blades. Keep up.

What do we do about areas in which the turbines will freeze like what happened in Texas last year?

Texas refused to pay to have its grid winter weather proofed.

What do we do with Lithium Ion batteries in our Tesla's (that the climate change people hate for some reason) when the battery goes bad. Or any number of other proposed batteries from solar energy and other sources? Pretty sure that shit becomes uber toxic. Also how green is the process of actually making the batteries?

This is the closest to a legit point you've made, but you're still letting perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[CriticalGaming]

New turbine designs have fewer moving parts and no blades. Keep up.

Got a link to these new designs, and any listing of places using them effectively?

This is the closest to a legit point you've made, but you're still letting perfect be the enemy of good.

I wouldn't argue that this is even good. At best it is a bandaid because all you are doing is postponing the "crisis" to later down the road five or ten years when the batteries in these cars start to go bad. Not to mention the huge infrastructure problem we have that doesn't support electric vehicles en-masse or even in long distance travel. These cars have rather poor range and take too long to recharge to be practical for rural areas of the country, or for heavy duty supply chain use like with 18-wheeler trucks hauling 53 foot trailers of good across the country.

A lot of that oil is either underwater, which requires massive amounts of infrastructure that the industry constantly cut corners on, consists of even more polluting tar sands, or is located under our national parks. I know conservatives are less than crazy about the national parks, but there's a lot of good reasons not to dig them up.

We could always go Nuclear.
.

 

[Buyetyen]

Got a link to these new designs, and any listing of places using them effectively?

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-turbines-could-bring-wind-power-to-your-home
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/...-electricity-by-vibrating-with-air-movements/

The tech is relatively new so it hasn't seen widespread deployment yet, but if you read the articles it addresses a number of criticisms of traditional wind turbines.

I wouldn't argue that this is even good. At best it is a bandaid because all you are doing is postponing the "crisis" to later down the road five or ten years when the batteries in these cars start to go bad. Not to mention the huge infrastructure problem we have that doesn't support electric vehicles en-masse or even in long distance travel. These cars have rather poor range and take too long to recharge to be practical for rural areas of the country, or for heavy duty supply chain use like with 18-wheeler trucks hauling 53 foot trailers of good across the country.

All of which can be fixed. But only if you have the will to actually do things.

We could always go Nuclear.
.

I'm still not sold on nuclear.

 

[CriticalGaming]

The tech is relatively new so it hasn't seen widespread deployment yet, but if you read the articles it addresses a number of criticisms of traditional wind turbines.

They aren't even close to ready for opperation so I'm not as behind the times as you say. I asked for places where the tech is usable and the answer to that is currently nowhere. It's a nice idea, but it isn't able to produce enough energy that people would need.

If you scaled that up, how much wind would you need to vibrate that thing enough to generate a usable amount of power on a grid? Maybe it can, but there is nothing to suggest it's anywhere near viable anytime soon.

So my original point of the blades remains a valid concern.

I'm still not sold on nuclear.

Why not? It is one of the cleanest energy sources available and is also one of the safest energy production methods. Not to mention very efficiant.

 

[Buyetyen]

They aren't even close to ready for opperation so I'm not as behind the times as you say. I asked for places where the tech is usable and the answer to that is currently nowhere. It's a nice idea, but it isn't able to produce enough energy that people would need.

If you scaled that up, how much wind would you need to vibrate that thing enough to generate a usable amount of power on a grid? Maybe it can, but there is nothing to suggest it's anywhere near viable anytime soon.

So my original point of the blades remains a valid concern.

Translation: Fixing these problems would require work, so let's not even fucking bother.

Why not? It is one of the cleanest energy sources available and is also one of the safest energy production methods. Not to mention very efficiant.

A number of reasons.

First of all, there's the leg between conception and completion. Nuclear power plants take up to 20 years to build correctly. That's a hell of a lag compared to solar and wind farms. Even France's Messmer plan took 32 years to complete.

Then there's the levelized cost of energy. The LCOE for a nuclear power plant in 2018 was about $151/MWh. That's compared to $43/MWh for wind farms and $41/MWh for solar. And these are likely underestimates for nuclear again because of that lag in construction, nor does it include the cost of meltdowns and waste storage.

Then you have nuclear proliferation concerns as more nuclear power makes it easier to acquire fissile material.

I mentioned meltdowns already. Even an exploding coal plant doesn't do as much damage as a nuclear meltdown.

There's also the fact that uranium mining is an extraordinarily dangerous job with a very high risk of lung cancer.

These factors also combine to create higher emissions compared to renewables. When China went nuclear, their emissions went up during the building process and is estimated to have caused somewhere in the neighborhood of 69,000 deaths from the resulting air pollution.

And of course there are a lot of issues with waste disposal, with most facilities for disposal needing to be maintained for 200,000 years, which is well outside the operational life of a power plant.

Would you like more?

 

[CriticalGaming]

Would you like more?

Translation: Fixing these problem would require work, so let's not even fucking bother.

 

[Buyetyen]

Translation: Fixing these problem would require work, so let's not even fucking bother.

So you have no rebuttal, just disingenuous, "No U!" shit.

Be honest, is this the first time you've heard any of these criticisms of nuclear?