Ukraine

[Hades]

Deputy chairman of Russia's Defence Committee, and leader of the nationalist pro-Putin Rodina party, appeared on state TV disputing Finland's right to exist as a state, and threatening that Russia could strike the UK in 200 seconds.

Russia makes new threats over use of Satan-2 hypersonic nuclear missile on Britain

Kremlin official also says it is ‘absolutely legitimate’ for Russia to question existence of Finland

www.independent.co.uk

This is all totally normal political discourse.

Considering Russia recently invaded and tried to ethnically cleanse the last nation who's right to exist they disputed this just means Finland has all the more reason to join NATO.

Its really curious that Russia spends almost no time trying to assure Sweden and Finland that they don't have the worst of intentions for those countries, instead favoring the argument of ''Don't make it harder for us to destroy you, or we're going to destroy you''

The article is paywalled though.

 

[Kwak]

Russia could strike back at the West by calling on its network of white-supremacist groups to commit terror attacks there, analysts warn

Experts increasingly fear that as Russia's invasion stalls, the Kremlin could choose to retaliate against Western nations by inciting violence there.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Agema]

Considering Russia recently invaded and tried to ethnically cleanse the last nation who's right to exist they disputed this just means Finland has all the more reason to join NATO.

It is just so much hot air.

No other government cares what they say in such public utterances. The real work is done by governments talking to each other behind closed doors: this bullshit is for public consumption for their image. Putin's regime has built this idea of Russian militaristic strength, nationalism and extreme righteousness among Russians, and having pumped it to the max the regime has left itself no other role to take. And so they monomaniacally splurge out threats, boasts and bluster.

They know it is empty. They know they can't carry out the things they claim, they know that they have destroyed their own nation's reputation, they know that they have driven countries into the arms of NATO themselves, they know that the invasion has been a humiliation for their armed forces. But to admit any of that is to admit the last two decades were a lie and their regime would not survive it, so they just carry on.

 

[Silvanus]

The article is paywalled though.

Nah, The Independent isn't paywalled; it prompts you to subscribe with a message that blocks the article, but you can just hit 'I'll try later' and the article unblocks. There's no cost or article limit.

It is just so much hot air.

No other government cares what they say in such public utterances. The real work is done by governments talking to each other behind closed doors: this bullshit is for public consumption for their image. Putin's regime has built this idea of Russian militaristic strength, nationalism and extreme righteousness among Russians, and having pumped it to the max the regime has left itself no other role to take. And so they monomaniacally splurge out threats, boasts and bluster.

They know it is empty. They know they can't carry out the things they claim, they know that they have destroyed their own nation's reputation, they know that they have driven countries into the arms of NATO themselves, they know that the invasion has been a humiliation for their armed forces. But to admit any of that is to admit the last two decades were a lie and their regime would not survive it, so they just carry on.

They know that now. Are Finland and Sweden (and Moldova) going to rest assured that the same will be true in 5 years, after another spate of military investment and nationalist agitation?

It's probably hot air. But plenty of minds in the intelligence services thought the same about the threats to Ukraine, and wrote those off as fanciful.

Still, I posted that not really as evidence of an imminent threat to either country, but as evidence of how Russian state TV normalises and propagates nationalist expansion. This stuff is approved and vetted by gov censors.

 

[Hawki]

Ah I was wondering whether Erdogan or Orban would be the traitor within the western ranks. Guess its Erdogan.

Hasn't Orban always been a 'traitor,' so to speak? (If you subscribe to the EU's dominant philosophy). And I don't know if Erdogan could be a 'traitor' when Turkey's never been part of NATO or the EU, and has historically always been separate from Europe culturally and historically.

 

[Agema]

Hasn't Orban always been a 'traitor,' so to speak? (If you subscribe to the EU's dominant philosophy). And I don't know if Erdogan could be a 'traitor' when Turkey's never been part of NATO or the EU, and has historically always been separate from Europe culturally and historically.

Turkey has been a full NATO member since 1952. The idea was to "surround" the USSR as much as possible, and Turkey offered fantastic opportunities to do so.

 

[Hawki]

Turkey has been a full NATO member since 1952.

...

...checks Google...

...well now I feel stupid.

 

[thebobmaster]

...

...checks Google...

...well now I feel stupid.

Don't. You made a statement, turned out to be wrong, and you checked to see who was right. You then admitted you were mistaken. The first part of that makes you, at worst, ignorant (in the literal sense of not knowing, not in any negative sense). Everything else is a sign you are anything but stupid, as stupidity would be doubling down and saying Google was wrong.

 

[Seanchaidh]

We've apparently learned nothing from Able Archer. Or maybe we want to blow up the world.

Canadian imperialism’s fascist friends—Part 1: Ottawa’s decades-long alliance with the Ukrainian far-right and the NATO war on Russia

The alliance between Canadian imperialism and Ukrainian fascism is most strikingly embodied in the person of Canada’s Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland. The granddaughter of a prominent Ukrainian Nazi collaborator who was provided refuge in Canada following the Third Reich’s downfall, she...

www.wsws.org

 

[Dalisclock]

We've apparently learned nothing from Able Archer. Or maybe we want to blow up the world.

Canadian imperialism’s fascist friends—Part 1: Ottawa’s decades-long alliance with the Ukrainian far-right and the NATO war on Russia

The alliance between Canadian imperialism and Ukrainian fascism is most strikingly embodied in the person of Canada’s Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland. The granddaughter of a prominent Ukrainian Nazi collaborator who was provided refuge in Canada following the Third Reich’s downfall, she...

www.wsws.org

Imagine if Russia was actively invading one of it's neighbors. Imagine how all of it's other neighbors would feel about that.....

Wait a minute.....

 

[Agema]

Imagine if Russia was actively invading one of it's neighbors. Imagine how all of it's other neighbors would feel about that.....

Wait a minute.....

Let's remind ourselves of some earlier conversation...

[Russia is] doing military exercises with Belarus (just like the United States does military exercises in many other countries such as South Korea, Germany and so forth).

A lot of those dots on that Guardian map graphic are in Belarus. How much of this "massive" build-up can be explained by movement to Belarus for those (presumably impermanent) military exercises?

The fact remains that you're talking about Russia's military moving around Russia and mostly staying in Russia.

There is no good reason whatsoever for people in the West to treat claims made by Western media that Russia is doing something threatening with anything but the most demanding skepticism.

 

[Silvanus]

Describing a Russian invasion of Ukraine, with no US personnel involved and no Russian territory under threat, as a "US war on Russia" is quite a take.

Mostly it just reflects the utter chauvinism with which commentators like Pilger (and David North, and Max Blumenthal) treat smaller countries like Ukraine. No agency is attributed, no respect for self-determination; their sole role is viewed as a pawn of imperial powers, and these commentators then proceed to write them out of the equation entirely, advocating for a different imperial power to hold sway instead. The smaller country never even factors in. Its one of the most insidious hangovers of imperialism, to treat small countries solely as a tool of inter-imperial conflict.

 

[Satinavian]

That would be true if they actually believed it. But the main reason they are bent on describing it as an "US war" is to justify it. To make it something other than just Russia conquering her smaller neighbour.
It is the same thing with Ukraine "not a real country", calling the Ukrainian gouvernment a "regime" and their army "nationalists", not soldiers

 

[Seanchaidh]

‘Disinformation’ Label Serves to Marginalize Crucial Ukraine Facts

Corporate media have increasingly taken to branding realities inconvenient to US information goals as “disinformation” spread by Russia.

fair.org

Let's remind ourselves of some earlier conversation...

So then you agree that NATO exercises in Finland on Russia's border are meant to escalate. Perhaps you also think that they are prelude to an invasion.

But that doesn't bother you.

 

[Satinavian]

So then you agree that NATO exercises in Finland on Russia's border are meant to escalate. Perhaps you also think that they are prelude to an invasion.

But that doesn't bother you.

If the NATO actually moved 150 000 soldiers + equippment to the Finnish border for an excercise, people might think so and it would be a bit escalatory.

However an excercise of 15000, composed mostly of the Finnish army after Finland got directly threatened by Russia several times ? Seems fine.

 

[Dalisclock]

If the NATO actually moved 150 000 soldiers + equippment to the Finnish border for an excercise, people might think so and it would be a bit escalatory.

However an excercise of 15000, composed mostly of the Finnish army after Finland got directly threatened by Russia several times ? Seems fine.

But NATO bad, mkay.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Its one of the most insidious hangovers of imperialism, to treat small countries solely as a tool of inter-imperial conflict.

You speak as if the imperialism ever stopped, or if this incredible concern for the sovereignty of whichever local elites are allowed to take and remain in power is ever deployed in any serious way for reasons other than to bolster the ambitions to global domination of the United States or the looting-- fairly, by righteous contract-- of the country in question at the expense of its public.

 

[Seanchaidh]

But NATO bad, mkay.

The United States and United Kingdom have indicated that if Zelensky reaches a peace agreement with Russia, sanctions will continue; Zelensky has not been empowered to use them as a bargaining chip. The only conclusion to draw from that information is that the United States has committed itself to damaging Russia at the expense of Ukraine. This after contributing to the rise of tensions in the region.

So yeah, NATO fucking bad.

 

[Silvanus]

You speak as if the imperialism ever stopped, or if this incredible concern for the sovereignty of whichever local elites are allowed to take and remain in power is ever deployed in any serious way for reasons other than to bolster the ambitions to global domination of the United States or the looting-- fairly, by righteous contract-- of the country in question at the expense of its public.

The sovereignty of the country's people to elect a government of their choice, and to exist separately from the whims of a larger Imperial power. That sovereignty, which Russia seeks explicitly to destroy.

Ya know, concern for self-determination usually isn't considered "incredible". Some might even say its a pretty essential part of socialism.

The United States and United Kingdom have indicated that if Zelensky reaches a peace agreement with Russia, sanctions will continue; Zelensky has not been empowered to use them as a bargaining chip. The only conclusion to draw from that information is that the United States has committed itself to damaging Russia at the expense of Ukraine. This after contributing to the rise of tensions in the region.

So yeah, NATO fucking bad.

You don't have a problem with a single thing you've described here, though, if it's just a different perpetrator doing it.

In fact, if its a different perpetrator, you're content for them to go much, much, much, much further.

Stop pretending this is a principled stance against certain actions, rather than a specific objection to one particular actor.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

You speak as if the imperialism ever stopped, or if this incredible concern for the sovereignty of whichever local elites are allowed to take and remain in power is ever deployed in any serious way for reasons other than to bolster the ambitions to global domination of the United States or the looting-- fairly, by righteous contract-- of the country in question at the expense of its public.

This is rich. So Russia bombing civilian targets, committing rape and murder, is all self-defense, but Finland doing exercises within its own borders is escalation.

Look, could you just admit that you want the USSR back and you don't care who dies along the way, and save us all time? Every word you write proves me correct about you.