The Souls Series Replayed

Dalisclock

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Maybe after this, I will do a thread playing every FF game in order.
DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll be there for it. At least the first 10 games(not counting the FF7 spin-off games because I've played literally zero of them). After that it's just me going on what I've heard because I've little interest in any game after 10.
 

Xprimentyl

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Maybe after this, I will do a thread playing every FF game in order.
Might be interesting. I know literally nothing about most of those games, but they've garnered enough of a following that an in-depth introspective of each game might be worth the follow for someone like myself, i.e.: unwilling to track down and play each game, but still retains a curiosity as to their popularity. That'll be quite the undertaking, though; what are we up to now, 15, 16 FFs?
 

CriticalGaming

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Might be interesting. I know literally nothing about most of those games, but they've garnered enough of a following that an in-depth introspective of each game might be worth the follow for someone like myself, i.e.: unwilling to track down and play each game, but still retains a curiosity as to their popularity. That'll be quite the undertaking, though; what are we up to now, 15, 16 FFs?
16 is set to release sometime soonish. Maybe this year, or next.
 

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Might be interesting. I know literally nothing about most of those games, but they've garnered enough of a following that an in-depth introspective of each game might be worth the follow for someone like myself, i.e.: unwilling to track down and play each game, but still retains a curiosity as to their popularity. That'll be quite the undertaking, though; what are we up to now, 15, 16 FFs?
15 main games not counting spin offs. Two of which are MMOs. 16 will release whenever SE feels like it.

And however tactics fits in. Not sure if Tactics counts as a main game or not. It should but its not numbered and more of an SRPG then a JRPG but Ivalice is canon if FFXII is to be believed....so IDK.
 
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bluegate

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DS2 implemented some good things, some bad things;

Bonfire Ascetic allowing you to level up a boss without going to NG+? That's good!

Having to travel back to Majula every time you want to level up? That's bad!

Making every bonfire a teleport destination and teleport being a default skill? That's good!

Having to go to a blacksmith rather than just a bonfire to level up weapons? That's bad!

Four ring slots? That's good!

Making i-frames stat dependant, making players waste 20ish levels for decent i-frames? That's bad!

Making dodging stick to a grid rather than being "free form"? That's bad!
 

bluegate

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Yet they kept it for the next two games.
From Software continuing on with a bad change doesn't make it a good thing.

Where there other games that you didn't need a specific npc to level armor or weapons?
Didn't you just play the original Dark Souls?

If you buy a certain item in there, the game will let you level up your weapons and armor at bonfires.
I think it was sold by either the undead merchant in Undead Burg or André in Undead Parish, both easily accessible during early game.

I think you still needed to visit a blacksmith to transform a weapon into a boss weapon though.
 
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I gave the Souls games a fair crack of the whip but I find them so tedious. If you don't like loads of (very similar) boss fights, you basically won't like them. And I think that's the main problem for me.
 

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I gave the Souls games a fair crack of the whip but I find them so tedious. If you don't like loads of (very similar) boss fights, you basically won't like them. And I think that's the main problem for me.
Same. Not worth the stress.
 
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dscross

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You already play several tougher games. FROM games are a fairly leisurely pursuit by contrast!
Not putting words in his mouth but, for me, i've played much harder games. Souls games just aren't very interesting.
 

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You already play several tougher games. FROM games are a fairly leisurely pursuit by contrast!
Your point? Dark Souls style games just don't do it for me. I know they're not that stressful, but I just don't like the structure or how they play. Definitely not me and I don't have the patience.

Not putting words in his mouth but, for me, i've played much harder games.
Same. You ever play Comix Zone? Ninja Gaiden II (the original 360 version)? I beaten those and never wanted to touch them again! Playing on the hard difficulties on Ninja Gaiden II especially, is not worth the effort. All becomes is a game of spamming ultimate techniques 95% of the time or being cheap. I don't know how many hard games you played and beaten, but I played a lot myself.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Your point? Dark Souls style games just don't do it for me. I know they're not that stressful, but I just don't like the structure or how they play. Definitely not me and I don't have the patience.


Same. You ever play Comix Zone? Ninja Gaiden II (the original 360 version)? I beaten those and never wanted to touch them again! Playing on the hard difficulties on Ninja Gaiden II especially, is not worth the effort. All becomes is a game of spamming ultimate techniques 95% of the time or being cheap. I don't know how many hard games you played and beaten, but I played a lot myself.
I took not worth the stress as being difficulty related, but yeah the style and structure contribute to that.
 
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sXeth

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I'd definitely put Souls (and its siblings) in the zone of not-particularly hard. But the difficulty that is there is just a damage//hp base more then anything.


And it lacks the diversity in gameplay and mechanics that you might find in a Monster Hunter or a fighting game that would generally lean into that sort of experience as more enjoyable (IE : there are "combos" in Souls, but they're all the same combinations of two buttons)
 

CriticalGaming

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And it lacks the diversity in gameplay and mechanics that you might find in a Monster Hunter
You know people use Monster Hunter as a comparison so much that it really bothers me. Just because Monster Hunter has diversity in combat doesn't mean that's it's automatically better than Souls when Souls has limited combat options.

There is a big different. MH requires the gameplay diversity because it requires the player to do the same fight over and over and over again. The diversity in combat is there to give the player options to make the exact same fight feel different if they get bored with it.

Souls games don't require this, they require a basic learning curve for a boss and then that boss is typically done and the next fight will require something different of the player. You wont return to the same fight unless you are playing the game all over again for the most part. This means that Souls combat being limited is actually a benefit, simply because the combat allows the player to MASTER their approach in order to maximize their success through the game. If there is too much diversity in the combat, then you'd end up with people just finding the easiest way to get through a fight to move on and the experience would be so drastically weakened as a result.

It's apples to oranges in comparison is what I mean.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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You know people use Monster Hunter as a comparison so much that it really bothers me. Just because Monster Hunter has diversity in combat doesn't mean that's it's automatically better than Souls when Souls has limited combat options.

There is a big different. MH requires the gameplay diversity because it requires the player to do the same fight over and over and over again. The diversity in combat is there to give the player options to make the exact same fight feel different if they get bored with it.

Souls games don't require this, they require a basic learning curve for a boss and then that boss is typically done and the next fight will require something different of the player. You wont return to the same fight unless you are playing the game all over again for the most part. This means that Souls combat being limited is actually a benefit, simply because the combat allows the player to MASTER their approach in order to maximize their success through the game. If there is too much diversity in the combat, then you'd end up with people just finding the easiest way to get through a fight to move on and the experience would be so drastically weakened as a result.

It's apples to oranges in comparison is what I mean.

Aside from that, why games need to be difficult or challenging for the sake of mechanical complexity always generally kinda baffled me. It’s kinda why I’ve always bounced off of really getting into RTS as it seems before you can really play you have to learn dozens of hot keys. Does that added barrier make them more fun?

I’ve never played MH but common complaints involving the grindiness, RNG, and attritional nature of its fights don’t encourage me to do so either. Before you’re ever decked out with good gear I’ve read individual fights can drag out for half an hour or more, and can be repeated several times per monster. Is saving mid-fight possible? Because I’d probably need to on some occasions.

Mileage may vary of course, but to me there always seemed to be a satisfying rhythm to Souls combat that each successive game has iterated upon. Also the games are as much about environmental awareness as they are boss fights; possibly even more so.
 
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sXeth

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You know people use Monster Hunter as a comparison so much that it really bothers me. Just because Monster Hunter has diversity in combat doesn't mean that's it's automatically better than Souls when Souls has limited combat options.

There is a big different. MH requires the gameplay diversity because it requires the player to do the same fight over and over and over again. The diversity in combat is there to give the player options to make the exact same fight feel different if they get bored with it.

Souls games don't require this, they require a basic learning curve for a boss and then that boss is typically done and the next fight will require something different of the player. You wont return to the same fight unless you are playing the game all over again for the most part. This means that Souls combat being limited is actually a benefit, simply because the combat allows the player to MASTER their approach in order to maximize their success through the game. If there is too much diversity in the combat, then you'd end up with people just finding the easiest way to get through a fight to move on and the experience would be so drastically weakened as a result.

It's apples to oranges in comparison is what I mean.

I mean, the comparison comes up because its the same combat system at a baseline almost to a plagiaristc level (the bars for health and stamina are literally identical colours in identical order in the identical UI location).


Both utilized stamina management as a limiter to set a more deliberate pace to their combat, and placed a high emphasis on evasion of attacks over blocking or even countering (Souls concessions to parrying aside). With the main evade move also being a roll that includes i-frames (in Souls a giant gaping window of them, in MH a drastically more limited amount).


No one is changing their weapon in Monster Hunter to find the easiest way through a fight, I'd guarantee you that, because farther in the game that literally could be 10 hour investments (both in re-farming up a weapon tree and in learning a whole new weapon).


Souls... doesn't require anything different in the vast majority of boss fights. R1, R1, circle repeat ad nauseum with even a basic grasp of timing reads and stamina management. Off the top of my head the only time this doesn't work is Crystalians in Elden Ring which actually required using the R2 (or well, assming you didn't want to witness the heat death of the universe first). And it doesn't change if I use a sword, a claymore, an axe, a halberd, claws. a rusty pitchfork. My NG+ run on DS3 I llterally used a different weapon on every single boss that I'd never used in my first run.


The only adjustments in Souls, tandeming with what it deems as difficulty, is pushing my weapons damage up a curve (and even that petres off about midway through each game). Its primary difficulty reflects the same, the attacks aren't difficult to learn and the invincbility window is gigantic, the main pitfall is that you will get out by a particularly large or oddly animated attack, die in one hit and have to reset the whole fight. Bury that in a second or third boss phase to make it even more fleeting. I'm not mastering any technique or notable skill improvement even on the baseline, I'm definitely not establishing any new skill for each boss. I'm just dealing with whatever new janky way they've found to make the animation look derpy or add some other attack you wouldn't expect to occur.


And that basically is the main component of my critique of the Souls game. Its the same critique I have of Assassins Creed. Every fight and every scenario in the game (with rare exception) is so mind numbingly similar that I frequently forget how many games there actually are in each series and sometimes which fights were in each one. Admittedly, Monster Hunter is not above a bare remastering of its regular line up as well. But I don't feel like I've fought Rathalos 23 times in one game (unless I have, because RNG's a harsh mistress). I barely process a distinct memory between Ornstein, Gwyn, Black Knights, Pursuers, Crucible Knights (they do have their little angel thing which is amusing when they yeet themselves into pits) and the other seeming 18,000 humanoid dudes I've fought in Souls games. I remember fighting the Weeping Dragon mostly because it took 40 minutes with a non-upgraded weapon, and I couldn't tell you a single attack it did but I've never lost to it in 2 runs of DS1 and 1 run of DS1:R.
 
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CriticalGaming

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I mean, the comparison comes up because its the same combat system at a baseline almost to a plagiaristc level
That's like says every turn-based RPG is exactly the same because they all have HP and MP bars.

Both utilized stamina management as a limiter to set a more deliberate pace to their combat, and placed a high emphasis on evasion of attacks over blocking or even countering (Souls concessions to parrying aside). With the main evade move also being a roll that includes i-frames (in Souls a giant gaping window of them, in MH a drastically more limited amount).


No one is changing their weapon in Monster Hunter to find the easiest way through a fight, I'd guarantee you that, because farther in the game that literally could be 10 hour investments (both in re-farming up a weapon tree and in learning a whole new weapon).
Lots of games have stamina mangement. Similar gameplay foundations don't mean the games are similar.

Souls... doesn't require anything different in the vast majority of boss fights. R1, R1, circle repeat ad nauseum with even a basic grasp of timing reads and stamina management.
My guy....have you....have you played a souls game before? Because this is so unbelievably wrong that I can't even reply to it.

The only adjustments in Souls, tandeming with what it deems as difficulty, is pushing my weapons damage up a curve (and even that petres off about midway through each game).
People who beat the games at level 1 say "hello".

I'm definitely not establishing any new skill for each boss.
This whole paragraph reads like, "Bro all you gotta do to win is simply...like..hit the boss until it dies."

Monster Hunter doesn't require anything on a complex level either. Hit the fucker until it falls over and don't get hit back. That is the core of action games period so you might as well be comparing Monster Hunter to Devil May Cry or Street Fighter.

Dark Souls and Monster Hunters are too different from a fundamental design philosophy that I do not believe they can fairly be compared. Monster Hunter requires boss farming, and gear grinding. Bosses are more dynamic and often require pre-planning of traps, buffs, foods, and response items. There is soo much more to Monster Hunter than a Souls game that they do not work when related to each other.