I heard the controls got tightened up a little for the remake. Is that true?
The Souls Series Replayed
- Thread starter CriticalGaming
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I couldn't compare. I never played the OG. Probably though.
Right, I can follow this argument in theory, but it simply doesn't match the experience of most players. It's widely agreed that the Souls games (+ Sekiro, Bloodborne, Elden Ring) are high difficulty, and that most encounters are not unfair.
The moveset is limited in terms of types of attack, but that's clearly not all there is to it. Difficulty comes from precise movement and timing. You can say the same for Hollow Knight, or Nioh, or quite a few others. In Devil May Cry, for instance, you've got a much larger pool of attack moves/combinations... but your timing and placement simply do not matter as much, which also means the requirement to know your enemy, recognise tells, & intuit upcoming moves is not as high. The result is that for a regular playthrough, Souls is harder than Devil May Cry, regardless of the size of your attacking moveset.
Hollow Knight is an excellent example... because it literally adds a whole additional range of gameplay via its platforming elements and also gives you abilities. There's a reason I never lump Sekiro into the Souls pile. And outright said Elden Ring sort of tried but didn't really commit to the idea.
Nioh is far from my favorite game (I think I rated it 3rd or 4th worst of the ones I played that year), but theres enough things going on with Ki and the overall amount of actual character building mechanics and the companion spirit things. I don't think they work well by any means, but its certainly got that higher complexity and potential for more challenging encounters (whether it ever gets there, I can;t say).
In the quoted part, Souls only wobbles to the edge of unfair when it plays the input reading game. Like many things, the input reading is too unsophisticated to fully work though, so you end up with actually exploitable scenarios more then anything (Press square on your empty flask ot make the Godskins stop and throw a fireball at you while co-opping so your partner can open their veins at will, its hilarious).
The other big thing they do is not unfair, but it just looks goofy as hell. When enemies stop their attacks entirely midswing or do nonsensical momentum changes. Even regular normal humans. There's a pretty obvious break where they've ceased to design things following logic, reason, or even a level of coherent physics and just made nonsense to try and pad difficulty because they have no other avenue to do it.
"Widely agreed" is a low bar, and coincidentally also not a verifable one. Like right now the Warframe reddit is "widely agreeing" that not standing in a glowing part of the floor that is lighting up on fire for the full 2 seconds it takes an attack to go off (that drains your energy) is too difficult. I can go to a non-gaming example in my day job and the probably 3-5 people a day who tell me its too difficult to remember a 6 digit number for <8 seconds it takes to enter it after its texted to you.
They added omnidirectional rolling from later games which the original didn’t have.
The other factor that can’t be discounted is no difficulty select. DMC could technically be more difficult than Souls for a lot of people on repeat playthrough’s using higher difficulties. Or perhaps people don’t care for that and will just play on lower difficulties.
It’s why it’s tougher there to get a general consensus on the subject whereas with Souls, everyone has to pick the same starting point and it’s up to each individual player how to make a go of it from there via leveling, spells, summons, etc.
Platforming elements which are mostly absent from fights, and abilities which are unnecessary and no greater/more extensive that what Souls gives you via magic.
Ki is essentially another approach to stamina management, which is also vital in Souls. Character building mechanics are also prominent in both.
Haha, if you want to argue that Soulsborne isn't generally considered difficult, you're gonna have a tough time. It's not really seriously disputed.
The Souls games aren't hard, I was flabbergasted how simple and easy Dark Souls was when I first played. Once you learn the game's systems, you're like, that's it? Watch any of those guys doing no-hit runs and they take the least risky approach and really anyone can do it. Some boss battles take some skill but the trash mobs are a joke if you have the patience to take the least risky approach. The only thing that makes Souls games "hard" is the limited checkpoints and the game does actually want to kill you for not playing well. Most modern games don't really try to kill you unless you really fuck up so Souls just seems like they are hard when really they are just what a normal game used to be. Most AAA games are just a very long list of simple tasks to complete vs giving the player some legit challenge. Growing up on arcade/NES/SNES, Souls games don't hold a candle to even an easy one of those; stuff like The Lion King and Chip 'n' Dale Rescue Rangers would eat Dark Souls for breakfast and then spit it out and have it for dinner.
Souls doesn't have stamina management, it has a DPS limiter, that's all stamina does is limit DPS. You block or dodge then mash R1 until you run of stamina and back away to refill the stamina. There is no management, only waiting.
Yes yes, you're very cool and good at video games.
But bad at comparing videogames. For example with the stamina critique, how the hell would a Souls game play better by having to eat rations and rest during boss fights? Or imagine having max stamina depletion by just spending time in Elden Ring’s world map. Would totally ruin the flow of the game with needless complications like this.
I get preferring a different system, but using it as a benchmark for a completely different style of gameplay is kinda bonkers.
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It's not some "l33t" gaming brag. Souls just isn't that hard skill wise. You can see that in those no hit runs. Sekiro is far far more skilled based than Souls that really just requires paying attention.
My stamina critique has nothing to do with stamina outside of combat, no eating rations or resting. The problem with Souls stamina purely in combat is that it functions as nothing but a DPS limiter, you don't have to manage your stamina, you just have to stop and wait to regain it. The fact that you can do anything with a sliver of stamina means you just mash R1 until out of stamina and you dodge away, then repeat. What are you actually managing? I don't have to hold my last attack because I'm worried that I don't have enough stamina to be able to dodge if needed. The only reason you put points into endurance is so you can upgrade it enabling you to do another attack in your R1 mashing chain before you have to back away. All it does is limit DPS.
You just wait a millisecond to get a sliver back and you can dodge. If the game had actual stamina management, you'd have to wait to get say 20 points of stamina to dodge (or whatever the stamina cost is for a dodge). Then you'd actually have to pay attention to your stamina and, you know, mange it vs mashing R1 until you can't attack anymore.
I mean the flurry of R1's and greed are what get players killed. You can label it as no skill, but that's fundamentally not true. You even mention people who beat the game at level 1, or who never take a single hit, and there is a ton of skill there which is why people watch them and are impressed by the showcase.
Because it’s more fun having to micromanage a gauge that closely vs just fighting the bloody enemies I suppose? I mean I get it; kudos to MH for having such a thoughtful stamina meta game, but that still doesn’t explain how or why it should apply to a very different style of combat, and it never will.
Whether your character is left essentially useless while waiting for an entire gauge to refill vs still able to attack being possibly decided by a mere point seems overly complicated, especially when these values are so easily manipulated by other means via meals or perks. FROM style of games are better off without that added baggage. They have enough of that in other design aspects.
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I don't care whether there's stamina or not in Souls or what's more fun. I'm pointing out that the stamina system is pointless and just a DPS limiter that makes you wait for no reason. A stamina system is supposed to make you think about what you do because you only have so much stamina, but the way Souls stamina system is it doesn't accomplish that. Souls fanboys talk about how Souls combat is more thoughtful or whatever because of said stamina system. MH and Souls combat are a rather similar style of combat where you have to wait for your action to finish before doing something else, like you can't just dodge mid attack animation in either of them. And no, you can't just eat a meal and have infinite stamina in MH, you still have to manage it no matter what. I'm not saying Souls needs said added baggage but if you're going to do a stamina system, either do it right or don't do it at all. Why try to pretend you have some kind of depth when you implemented it horribly and continue to implement it horribly, just take it out (but then they'd actually have to do a better job with the poise system so it's easier to just leave it in), the best Souls game is BB because it took out most of the baggage.
Stamina isn’t just for attacking as it’s also tied to defensive options and poise. So yes, you need to manage it for that too. Being elitist about “proper stamina systems” doesn’t mean it isn’t implemented as intended or at fault for a lack of excessive contrivances. If it wasn’t in there, then someone could block endlessly which would eliminate the need for rolling, which also uses stamina that could be used for attacking. Many FROM bosses are aggressive enough to where balancing offensive and defensive use of stamina matters. Sister Friede is a good example.
Just because someone does a no hit run doesn’t mean it’s so easy anyone can do it. If that was the case it wouldn’t be such a big deal seeing the same few people being the ones to pull those runs off.
I can solve this argument in one simple statement.
When a Souls game comes out, countless people cry and beg for an easy mode. When a monster hunter comes out, nobody cries about it being hard.