They aren't arguing against me but the foremost vaccine expert in the US, Paul Offit.
Our Covid Response
- Thread starter gorfias
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....yet you just stated that the first section of the study (which attested that the risk of symptomatic household cases is 50% lower when the contact is vaccinated) was no longer relevant, when the only thing that's changed is the variant.
It wasn't sustained because we didn't match it with proper public policy.
When the vaccine rolled out, transmission lowered significantly. Similarly, when we were in lockdown, transmission lowered significantly. Countries talked about contact-tracing and widespread testing, but then didn't bother to invest or make them work. Then, when transmission was low (but still widespread), countries pushed to open up ASAP, to get the money flowing again.
And up the transmission went again.
Had we locked down earlier, in concert with other countries, and with a functional contact-tracing system in place, the vaccine could have pushed the transmission down to the level where it was not mutating at nearly the same fast rate.
Instead, we treated it as a magic bullet that can save us from boring lockdowns and miserable news on its own. And we half-assed every other measure.
It did at the time and for months afterwards. Now? Barely, if at all. The early Covid vaccines have generally been high-efficacy, but comparatively low-duration.
You've literally disagreed with things Paul Offit has said more than anyone else here, but you just don't acknowledge it.
Yes, how can you be responsible when Offit merely speaks through you like god speaking through a cult leader.
So the time since vaccination is a constant that never changes?
Transmission lowered significantly because the vaccine produces antibodies that last a couple months, hence lower infections. Contact tracing isn't viable with covid. Things need to open up for goods and services to be produced, unless you think that can magically happen with people working from home. Why are you concerned about the virus mutating?
The vaccine is still stopping severe disease, stop making shit up. Low duration for infection and low duration for severe disease protection are 2 completely different things.
Everything I've said I can give direct quotes to Paul Offit saying it as well and I have.
He talks on many shows, anyone can listen to him.
Hey, manufacturing iron lungs is a chance to revitalize American industry!
Just remember: the vast majority of people survive polio just fine. All the iron lungs and leg braces were caused by Long Polio
Sharp Drop in Childhood Vaccinations Threatens Millions of Lives (Published 2022)
Pandemic lockdowns, misinformation campaigns, conflicts, climate crises and other problems diverted resources and contributed to the largest backslide in routine immunization in 30 years.
One of the many costs of what we did with regards to covid. Apparently these costs don't exist to you guys and it's "must do everything to stop covid" because there's absolutely!!! no costs associated with our covid response and only benefits!!!
"Why did you and Paul Offit push vaccines? Now it's your fault that people are making shit up about vaccines!"Sharp Drop in Childhood Vaccinations Threatens Millions of Lives (Published 2022)
Pandemic lockdowns, misinformation campaigns, conflicts, climate crises and other problems diverted resources and contributed to the largest backslide in routine immunization in 30 years.www.nytimes.com
One of the many costs of what we did with regards to covid. Apparently these costs don't exist to you guys and it's "must do everything to stop covid" because there's absolutely!!! no costs associated with our covid response and only benefits!!!
Paul Offit literally said this extreme push for covid vaccines has only caused more harm than benefit... The pro-vax crowd has done what the anti-vax crowd only wished they could do. Y'all really earned your gold star!!!
No idea where you got this, since nothing i said implied it.
Yes. Glad to see you're now acknowledging that infections drive... transmission. That weird insistence you had to separate them before was quite inexplicable.
Except actual essentials continued to be produced, even through "lockdown". The rush to open ASAP was not necessitated by vital goods. It was motivated by profit.
Well, this may be controversial, but I don't actually enjoy the pandemic very much.
Your said the only that changed was the variant...
I separated them because the vaccines stopping infections is unsustainable and only lasts a couple months. At this point, why would you have vax mandates anywhere when they don't stop infections and only exclude people (mainly minorities)?
If you think everything essential was being produced, you got your hands over your ears saying "La la la, this isn't happening"
If the virus never mutated, the "pandemic" would still be ongoing. No pandemic where I am at Gencon currently, the vendor hall is packed body to body just like pre-covid, 5 people packed into hotel rooms with 2 beds and a couch, everyone is living their life.
Lmao
C'mon man, if these idiots were pro vaccine before the vaccine messaging turned them off, we wouldn't've needed the vaccine messaging. These idiots were always champing at the bit to not vaccinate, only now they've got grifting political allies making it easy to feed into their worst impulses and now measles is back. And whooping cough. And polio, apparently. And because it's politically convenient to bash the gays, monkey pox is gonna rip through their shit without them seeing it coming because the idiots are convinced it's an STD and not a Pox.
If you learned anything from Wakefield, you *should've* learned that grifting assholes can easily convince tons of idiots to hurt themselves. Unless you think mandatory MMR vaccines was the problem there too
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This is easily the stupidest thing I've heard in the last three months, and I was stuck in a lobby with Fox News on the TV for three hours last week.
I'll remember that you said this in a couple of months. Let's see what happens.
How does this translate to "time since vaccination is a constant that never changes"?
A couple of months can be used to enormous effect, if coupled with effective public policy, rather than just letting everyone run riot again as soon as the numbers look slightly better.
They can also be extended. With boosters.
I'm not talking about mandates, so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
The country did not collapse during lockdown.
And the pandemic continues. "No pandemic where I am currently" is just wilful ignorance because it isn't personally effecting you. Those with vulnerable friends and family aren't so cavalier.
You said the only thing that changed was X when Y also changed and then claimed X was the reason when it wasn't.
So your public policy is going to be forcing people to get boosters all the time? Then you're only going to cause more negativity against vaccines in general and cause more overall harm. What about "my body, my choice" especially when the vaccines still stop severe disease?
Because you think the vaccine stops infections and spread and if it doesn't (which it doesn't), then there should be no vax mandates period. You do realize that's what people are upset about, right?
It would if we keep the restrictions in place because stuff wasn't being made or being made too slowly.
It isn't effecting like 50,000 people in Indy right now, that's hardly not effecting only me. Vulnerable can wear N95s and get boosters.
You think if the virus was still the original strain, the vaccines would stop infections? Because that's not how it works cuz science.
And there were these massive protests (all over the world) before this? The anti-vax movement was like the flat earthers.
Wait, so you're arguing that the data is no longer relevant because... time has passed? Even though that doesn't affect the conclusion in the slightest?
I truly have no idea why you insist on ascribing policy ideas to me all the time. I didn't say we should "force" people to take vaccines, boosters or otherwise.
You literally already said a post or so ago that infections were lower as a result of vaccination.
So, you *don't* know about Wakefield then? Or the fact that the anti-vax movement was gaining steam well before the covid pandemic leading to the resurgence of things like measles and whooping cough already?
The Anti-vaccination Movement: A Regression in Modern Medicine
There have been recent trends of parents in Western countries refusing to vaccinate their children due to numerous reasons and perceived fears. While opposition to vaccines is as old as the vaccines themselves, there has been a recent surge in the opposition ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The data was true at the time, but it isn't true now or for quite awhile and it isn't because variants.
If you didn't have these policies, no one would be upset.
Yes, infections were lower EARLY AFTER VACCINATION, that's not true after a couple months. There's no reason to force people to get something that doesn't offer community benefit. And everyone is gonna get covid who knows how many times, delaying that ever so slightly isn't accomplishing anything. I've been fighting off covid off and on all summer.
I know all about Wakefield, he was a knuckleballer that pitched into his 40s. Yes, I know of Wakefield, and anyone that read the paper could read that the study literally says it didn't prove anything and only had like 12 kids or something. Why you would put any weight on the study is beyond me.So, you *don't* know about Wakefield then? Or the fact that the anti-vax movement was gaining steam well before the covid pandemic leading to the resurgence of things like measles and whooping cough already?
The Anti-vaccination Movement: A Regression in Modern Medicine
There have been recent trends of parents in Western countries refusing to vaccinate their children due to numerous reasons and perceived fears. While opposition to vaccines is as old as the vaccines themselves, there has been a recent surge in the opposition ...
Before covid, where were these worldwide vaccine protests? The flat earth movement might be gaining steam for all I know but nobody gives a shit about them. Same with the antivaxxers before this. One of my aunts is an antivaxxer and no one in the family takes her seriously.
...The fuck are you on about? Wakefield's paper was obvious garbage that nonetheless kickstarted the modern anti-vax movement into high gear.
You're right, nobody was taking the anti-vax position seriously, which is why measles outbreaks spontaneously broke out completely with zero cause
Even if the paper was completely legit, there was no reason to give it the time of day because 1) it proved nothing said by the paper itself and 2) was completely underpowered. What is "high gear"; a handful of measles cases or worldwide protests? The pro-vaxxers have done more for the anti-vax movement than the anti-vaxxers could have ever done on their own.